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@Leo Gura That's fair. I always feel embarrassment when someone points out to me I'm gossiping. On another note, I have a question for you, Leo. It seems to me that unethical behavior tends to cause suffering to the person engaging in it, and that having high enough awareness thus tends to make one's behavior very ethical. But if we're talking about a very enlightened person doing something that can cause great suffering to others, is he himself at all suffering from it? If not, he has no incentive to stop.

Joshu Sasaki Roshi? I wonder what additional work he would've needed to get these tendencies out of him. It actually seems like sexual misconduct is not too uncommon among Zen teachers.

You can meditate with any sensory phenomena. So yes, the noise definitely shouldn't be an excuse not to. Silence has its benefits and drawbacks like anything else.

Surrender..would surrender mean the relaxation of both the body and attention? It is difficult to describe yes, but do you mean what one could describe as "being aware of being aware" where you "rest" as awareness instead of having attention focused on any object? The kind of a state that you drop into when you ask "Who am I?" or "Am I aware?"

I'm having intense interest about hearing more on how to catch the moment when one falls asleep/wakes up. How did you do that?

@zenny Anything that could bring pleasure to new heights, plus provide some sort of spiritual benefit, definitely appeals to my ego. The interesting thing about the term "tantra" is that historically, it doesn't have a sexual meaning at all, as I recently discovered by Listening to Shinzen Young's "The Science of Enlightenment". Early Buddhist scriptures were called "Sutra" and somewhat later Buddhist scriptures were called "Tantra". Some Hindu scriptures were also called "Tantra". As Buddhism and Hinduism cross-fertilized, part of their symbolism was indeed sexual union, and sometimes even part of their practice. One branch of Buddhism was really into the idea of bringing every aspect of life onto the path, including dreams and sleep, and also including sex. That said, I don't really know anything about Tantric sex, nor sex in general, at least practically not. I'm a virgin (I would much rather opt for the less embarrassing version of "I've never had sex") and haven't done anything sexual or intimate with anyone. Certainly that's a source of embarrassment due to cultural programming, being 18 and all. Considering my current life situation and goals, I'm not obsessed with changing that either. Once I do have a sexual partner, whenever that would happen, I'd certainly be interested in trying some of the "spiritual" sex practices out. Anyway, I gotta go back to writing my life story in the journaling section, plus gotta meditate today a well. I'd perhaps like to continue this discussion, depending on where it leads, but doing so today would be looking for a distraction from the real work I have to do. Peace out;)

@zenny I absolutely do, hence I said it's 3/3 vs 1/3. That's why I'm wondering whether concentration meditation has any particular benefit that mindfulness doesn't. If there isn't, I don't see why it's practiced, other than out of tradition.

@zenny I know all that. Or at least think I do. My ego loves the feeling. I love the feeling. I should elaborate. The way I would distinguish between concentration and mindfulness is this: 1. Concentration Meditation. You focus on a sensation. You put all your attention on the object of focus and withdraw your attention from anything else. The ultimate goal would be to focus on that sensation so intensely you become it, and only it. So if you focus on the sound of a mantra, you become the mantra. 2. Mindfulness Meditation. You focus on an aspect of experience, be it a sensory category or the perceptions associated with some process (hearing, thoughts, hearing in and out, all inner perceptions, the perceptions of washing the dishes, any vanishing of perceptions you can notice etc.) The objective here is to make finer and finer distinctions in that aspect of experience. The ultimate goal is to have a complete experience of that aspect of experience. In mindfulness it's not just about concentration (focus on an aspect) but also clarity (more and more distinctions in an aspect) and equanimity, which you talked about:) It seems to me that mindfulness is vastly superior. It's definitely more effective for enlightenment, emotional control and lots of other things. Concentration meditation could provide temporary calmness and help with focused activities like reading, listening. What I'm wondering is whether there's any extra benefit to doing a bit of concentration meditation next to mindfulness. Right now I feel like concentration meditation is 1/3 while mindfulness meditation is 3/3.

@MelanieWalker Alright. First of all, you can not do cardio in a way that would target slimming down a specific area of the body. The reason cardio can make a person lose weight is because it increases their caloric expenditure to the point where they burn more calories than they consume. When you burn more calories than you consume, your body uses its fat reserves to provide you with energy. You have no control over where the fat will come off. That is purely genetic (and hormonal but that's only significant if a person has a hormonal disorder). Secondly, you should work out your whole body. Otherwise you end up creating muscular imbalances and exacerbating those that already exist. You can put a little more emphasis on lacking areas, as well as stretch the muscles that are tight (which tend to be the ones that are naturally more developed). Thirdly, if you're at a healthy weight (and judging by your profile picture you absolutely are), you have to come to accept that your body type is as it is. If you store more fat on your lower body, or or are bulkier in your lower body, that's how it is. Remember that you judge your own body way more than others do, others probably don't think there's anything wrong with your body. What you really need to do is learn to love yourself.

@zenny How would you describe or characterize the difference between the effects of concentration meditation (mantras, focusing on an object) and mindfulness meditation?

@Praw I've seen both videos at least once and as far as I can recall it didn't cover what I want to know in this thread sufficiently. I might rewatch them at some point to make sure.

I believe I have a set of pretty good techniques that I use in my practice. This thread isn't about me seeking what to use, but rather of mapping the different meditation techniques that exist in the world. I looked briefly into TM, formed an opinion about it and am now welcoming second opinions from anyone who's had some kind of experience with either TM or mantra meditation in general.

Shinzen Young is great. Why? I'd say for the following reasons: 1) He has created a clear and comprehensive system for mindfulness meditation, he has a free e-book called "Five Ways to Know Yourself" which is available on his own website. 2) He is non-dogmatic in his teachings, fully acknowledging his way is just one way to go about the path. While he learned meditation within the context of Buddhism, he has knowledge about the meditative traditions of other cultures and religions, and the parallels they all have. 3) He has meditated for over 40 years and has over 30 years of teaching experience. I definitely recommend checking out the channels "Shinzen Young" and "expandandcontract" on Youtube.

First of all I'd like to say that I find it rather annoying when people give answers like 'Enlightenment doesn't take time because it's always there' or 'This question is just a distraction from the Truth'. While those answers are valid in a sense, it is clear that the questioner is interested in a pragmatic answer as to how long one needs to work to get enlightened. How long it takes seems to vary extensively depending on the method and of course the person. I guess one could make general conclusions about which methods are more effective, for example, self-inquiry is likely faster than most mindfulness approaches. My theory would be that Enlightenment happens faster for those who are more mindful throughout the day. If one does an hour of self-inquiry a day and goes on to live in the typical unconscious way for the other 23, it's going to take longer than for them than for someone who keeps up a steady questioning throughout the day.

I have been a bit confused about the "looking" process or the form of Self-Inquiry Leo describes in "How To Become Enlightened", and how it differs from Ramana Maharshi's version. The method Ramana Maharshi prescribed I understand as follows: 1. A thought arises 2. You inquire "To whom does this thought arise?" 3. The mind gives the answer, how ever subtly, "To me". 4. You inquire "Who am I?" What "Who am I?" is supposed to do is stop all thought and bring awareness "back into its source", which essentially makes it defocused so all perceptions (including ones of the body and mind) appear as content in awareness rather than "I". Rupert Spira has his version of the process where you simply ask "Am I aware?", which essentially does the same thing as "Who am I?" What both Maharshi and Spira have implied is that by continuously returning awareness back to its source, it gradually starts to stay there, which will give you insight into your true nature not being an object and produce an Enlightenment experience. The thing I'm having difficulty with understanding is what one is supposed to do after inquirying "Who am I?" or "Who is aware?" in the "looking process" described by Leo. Am I supposed to just let awareness rest while maintaining the sense of openness and wondering? Or am I supposed to actively look around in my awareness and try to find a perception of "I" (which of course by definition I never will)? If that is the case, am I supposed to actually answer the question as well, such as "I'm behind the eyes somewhere" and then inquire "Well who's aware of the one behind the eyes?" When I used to practice the "looking process" I would ask "Who is aware?" and find a perception in the head region (as that is where the sense of self is strongest) and then ask "Who's aware of that perception?", which would lead to another perception etc. I'd gladly appreciate if someone helped me clear this up:)

That's good to hear because that's what I've been assuming. I would put my effort into building mindfulness and having an enlightenment first, then deal with beliefs and the shadow. As long as I'm psychologically capable enough to keep doing enlightenment work, I don't see the problem with that approach. If you don't mind me asking, for how long have you been doing this? I'm perhaps too curious about how long it took other people to attain enlightenment.

My understanding is that meditation builds mindfulness to see through the bullshit, while autolysis gets the bullshit out of the way. Either way you see what lies beyond. I just presume mindfulness is a skill that needs to be cultivated rather than something that naturally comes with enlightenment. Shinzen Young at least has said that most ordinary people who have spontaneous enlightenment experiences lose them as they don't have enough awareness to understand.

Would you say it is more useful after the fact because you cling less to your ego and the knot you have to untangle is thus looser?

I've been considering using SA in addition to meditative practice. What I'm wondering is, what are your experiences as to the amount of time required to actually hack away an assumption? Judging by the stories of Mckenna and the girl in the second book, it would take thousands of hours to destroy enough to become truth-realized, comparable to the time it takes to get enlightened through meditation and self-inquiry. On one hand, meditation has the huge benefit of mindfulness. On the other hand, autolysis has the huge benefit of taking care of a lot of bullshit in your system. A person who had an enlightenment experience through meditation alone will likely still have a lot of neurotic tendencies, habits and beliefs to work through. A person who had an enlightenment experience through autolysis alone would have cleared out the bs but wouldn't be as mindful. McKenna described how he had difficulty meditating washing the dishes.

I've been thinking about this lately. I come from a small nation (ca 1 million people) so there are a lot of ideas about preserving the country, culture, and ethnicity. Personally, I've never resonated with patriotism. I don't think of myself as an Estonian, really. I feel like patriotism and ethnocentrism is divisive. Though technically national pride wouldn't need to mean one thinks their nation is better than others, I think it is an inescapable consequence of such belief. Like Ken Wilber has said, "every boundary line is a potential battle line" and so being a patriot inevitably creates an us vs them mentality, leading to national and ethnic conflict, which isn't much different from religious conflict. Until the majority of the world raises to a worldcentric level, we're bound to have "inside vs outside" problems as opposed to just "inner" problems.

In terms of carryover to daily life, having multiple sessions can certainly be better. Especially as a beginner. When I used to meditate in the mornings, which I no longer do, there was this sense of peace and increased concentration for some time. As I've progressed though I'm more concentrated by default, or at least can produce a higher concentration state just by wanting to. Therefore, I prefer to do a longer continuous sit as sitting for a longer and longer period of time without movement gets you higher and higher concentration, plus I can practice strong determination sitting.

That's an interesting question. The short answer I would instantly want to give is "no". I'm sure Buddhist monks sit down to meditate for longer than an hour each day. Plus they keep meditating through doing everyday tasks like cooking, eating, the laundry, work in the garden. They essentially meditate 24/7. On the other hand, you could "monasticize" your day just like they do. It's not at all only about how much you sit in formal practice, it's about how you bring the concentration, clarity and equanimity developed on the cushion to everyday doings. Unless you're preoccupied with an intellectual task that requires full CPU so to speak, you can keep meditating through walking, driving, eating, having conversations, using the bathroom, taking a shower, brushing the teeth, cleaning the house and so on. Plus you can take retreats every once in a while (10 days per year or 1 day per month) which will help raise your baseline awareness. You could even simply dedicate an entire day to meditating in your own home if you can't go to residential retreats. It should certainly be possible to become deeply enlightened while having a "normal" life.

Hey Leo, do you also combine strong determination sitting with the other techniques you mentioned? Also, do you use any specific approaches (such as "zooming in and out at the same time" or "focusing on the global spread of the pain") to deal with the sensory challenges (pain, mental images and talk) that tend to tangle as the pain gets really bad, or do you just try to bring mindfulness to them? I personally fail very quickly once I'm attacked by a machine-gun fire of mental images about moving my legs.