Arhattobe

@Leo Gura What I am really talking about isn’t just emotional mastery. Reducing one’s dharmic development post awakening to emotional mastery will give people the wrong impression. An awake person can still be highly delusional from a holistic standpoint and be very ignorant of numerous aspects of life. This isn’t just related to emotional mastery, but clarity of vision. Clarity of perception. Lack of distortion and perversion of information seen. ”full mastery” or arhatship is 0 distortion and complete clarity. As the heart sutra put it. Perfect Nirvana. Anyone below that needs to keep striving, keep growing for they will still suffer from dukkha due to karmic rebirth. Presenting things this way will give people a more realistic and healthier perspective of the path. Instead of what I did. Putting all of my eggs in the basket of awakening, and realising post awakening. I still had loads and loads of issues:) I see the validity of your points though, but obviously believe mine is more productive let’s say.

@Space Said it a lot better than me lol

@kieranperez You sound like a great human being. Self aware and genuine. Keep at it. Wherver you are, and wherver you’ll end up. You’ll grow, find more meaning, more depth and more life awaiting you. Gl

@Leo Gura In fact it is problematic not to do so, because by not doing so one who awakens, and becomes aware of the absolute might falsely believe that he understands life. When he lack great, great nuance. He might then come to numerous nihilistic conclusions. The seeming implications of his newfound realisation might be based in delusional, escapist tendencies, but if he thinks he is enlightened they will be unquestioned. Then Falsehoods will be passed on by such a person as the “truth” spoken by an “enlightened” man. At best such a person can be considered a beginner on the spiritual path. The term enlightenment should be reserved for one who walks the path genuinely, with self awareness, without escapism after such an awakening. Who through years of growth begins to see holistically that the relative and absolute should not be seperated. Nor should absolute truth be dismissive of relative truths. They should merge, with nuance and depth. To completely eradicate all fetters. Such an outcome. Which is not idealistic fantasy. Just rare can be worthy of the the term enlightenment then.

Apathy, Nihilism, and dismissal of life do not equal detachment. But a rejection of life fuelled from unrequited love/attachment. Detachment does not dismiss.

A story? To reduce life. Reality. Every life. Every piece of suffering. Every person growing and walking towards th right direction as a “story”. Is a deep shame. Born out of nihilistic non dual escapist delusion.

Concept would mean its thought based in nature. It is not. Energetic, emotional, mechanisms and various layers create each piece of karma. The entire individuated self. That’s another story. To dismiss such realities as illusion is actually false. Regardless of how you see it in your current experience. They are very real. As real as your insights. As real as your mother. Who is very real. Be nice to her.

@purerogue Your worries, concerns and the reason you are asking the question are all based in fantastical thought that lack substance and true reflection. Forget such lines of thinking. If I give you the answer. How would it change you life? In regards to consciousness. Consciousness, existence and mind are one. Different aspects of the same thing. The same thing really. & all are purposeful. Infinity does not mean a lack of purpose or direction. The numerical system is infinite. Yet apples are not a part of the numerical system, because it’s designed, with order and is purposeful. In the same manner. Life is purposeful. Not random.

@outlandish Yes. I definitely am considered sane and perfectly functionable. Answered your other questions in my previous reply. In general the lack of stability comes from extreme experiences that normally occur in earlier states, before one stabalizes, when one is “shifting” to a higher state, or during dark nights of the soul. The further you go though, and the higher you get to. The less these things will affect you and be a factor. Ones stability grows exponentially. As you reach higher and higher non dual states.

@isabel Absolutely. Like I said gross thought and image based thinking are surface layers in your system. I can still learn and function just fine. Information is recurved, retained and is called up when necessary. It’s just not actively thought of. No internal monologue. I can’t really explain how it’s like. I have been extremely disfunctional during certain “dark nights of the soul”, however. @purerogue The existence or the lack of existence of time aren’t very relevant to one’s path, life, and dharma. More importantly the lack of existence of time. Does not mean what you think it means. Unless your fully enlightened or at least in a high non dual state. Your view and scope are too limited (due to the degree of karma) and reality is seen in too much of a black and white fashion for you to even begin to understand such things. You see life through a binary lens, but in reality. Reality has much more nuance and depth than that, and is neither black nor white (in a sense.) Let me give an example. It’s kind of like this. Let’s say a scientist explains that the universe is infinite to a child. The child might then ask how many meters infinity is? how long would it take to traverse the infinite universe? The scientist can explain infinity as much as he wants to the child, but due to his limited perception and way of thinking the child will only hear that the universe is really big. At best really really big. Our mind naturally break down information to make it digestible and understandable to us. In this case whatever answer is given to you. If it is truth. Won’t be reflective of the reality. So why bother. Focus on more practical aspects of the path. Or ponder than which you can understand, and that which the understanding of will help your spiritual progress. This will not. Having said all that. I’ll answer your question anyway lol. Time exists within existence. Within mind. Mind and existence and consciousness are one and the same. Time does not exist where mind/existence does not exist, however.

There are vastly different states of being. One can experience life like a sociopath, a psychopath, a schizophrenic, a regular person, a good person, a person in a non dual state. The difference between these states is extremely real, and extremely vast. Every layer in ones system, emotions, layers that give birth to emotion. Thoughts, layers that give birth to thought. Decision making apparatus, layers that lead to decision making. And numerous layers not mentioned all come together to create your experience. In most mystical states, non dual people look at the surface layer of themselves. Let’s say thought layer. Think to themselves it’s kind of empty, and completely ignore the underlying layers of karma. Enlightenment to me is not non dual experience. Non dual understanding. Regardless of how deep it might be. It’s the complete eradication of all those layers. Complete zero. I currently am and have been for a long time in a non dual state, mostly in a thoughtless state as well. I can’t really think. Haven’t been able to for months. Although I have periods of release in which mind activity or thought activity become active. This, however, is far, far away from what I am referring to. Complete zero is not something most can fathom. Most can not even see how much garbage lays in the underlying levels of their experience. Rightfully so. They have no other reference point. In comparison to tsunami, huge waves might seem serene.

Here are a list of people who are in non dual states: regarded to be highly enlightened by most. Shinzen Young’s teacher : known to be gropy, and molest women. Shinzen reportedly called him a master’s master. In reality the man is a monk in a non dual state with issues too numerous to count. The average person is aware of their issues but men like him dismiss it with fantastical non dual talk backed up by their experience. Maharshi Mahesh Yogi : At worst engaged in the molestation of women that came to him looking for spiritual progress. At best (if you don’t believe the accusations) preached celibacy and engaged in sexual activities with many behind the scenes. Muktananda : Accused of molesting a girl as young as 13. UG Krishnamurti : An overall dick. Lacking in empathy and overall hateful and angry individual. Until his dying breath. Francis Bennet : Realized there is no self when he stable entered a non dual state, but then subsequently became a transsexual. Asides from these gross examples. Every teacher you look towards. Most are in deep denial of reality. Reality is not “perfect.” Suffering is by no means an “illusion”, to even suggest such things one shows the extreme naivety and lack of clarity that these teachers have. Having said that ones dharma, and the suffering we go through helps us grow, and get closer and closer towards the goal.

Due to the concept of “Anatta” (noself), non dual insights and states many claim that individuality is just an illusion. This is due to half baked insights, and a need for escapism that makes non dual teachers deny their individuality and the plethora of issues that they still have. You can be in a state of non duality and have an empty or calm mind, but the mind or thought level is only the surface level of your system. Many, many layers that churn beneath. That dictate your level of empathy, understanding, and behaviour can still have extreme amounts of karmic gunk. I refer again to the behaviour of these so called enlightened beings. None act in an enlightened manner. Simply because they are not. They are people. In non dual states. That’s it. In regards to your question. There is no soul, but as long as a bit of karma remains in you, you are absolutely an individual. You can be an individual that thinks he is not an individual. In a non dual state, but regardless. Still an individual.

That question requires a nuanced response. Here is the best I can do: Theravada Buddhism is by far the most advanced teaching in existence. Ill use it to make my point and respond to you. In Theravada Buddhism. There are 4 categories of awakeness. Stream entry, once returner, non returner, and arhatship. Even thought that’s a gross oversimplification, we will go with that map for the sake of this response. In said map, asides from arhats. Every one who falls under these stages will still have what the Buddhists call fetters. What are fetters? They are the tendencies and karmic patterns that are deeply ingrained into our systems, and take lifetimes to clear. A mere recognition of “self” will not magically make them disappear. I’ll explaim what karma is in another thread , but let me use some real life examples of people in non duality to make my case: Eg maharishi mahesh yogi and muktananda. Widely regarded by the non dual community to be in high stages of enlightenment. Had obvious fetters and obvious issues. They were both also accused of and engaged in sexual misconduct. UGs keishnamurtis video on his deathbed. The non dual teacher Francis Bennet who years after awakening decided he is a transsexual. These were just a few people I thought of off the top of my head. Same was true in my own experience. A massive release combined with the deep desire to escape is what makes non dual teachers deny every fetter and issue that they have. To dismiss their karma as just “mind”. Sadly it’s also why they don’t get that far. In summary No. Not the kind of non duality we are speaking of here at least. Only a Buddha could claim such a thing, and so far in my life I’ve seen none.