Consilience

Beyond implies above, implies hierarchy. These states are tangental, not beyond. Furthermore, they are wildly less direct if you understand what the goal of traditional spirituality is. The consequences of these indirect, potent methods are wildly misunderstood on this forum. All the psychedelics reveal is the infinite nature of mind. Im not saying this doesn’t have intrinsic value, or provide a certain unique wisdom as one travels. Similar to how when one travels the world there is a wisdom. Lineages recognize the infinity of mind, but recognize there is a Truth beyond the infinite nature of mind that recontextualizes ALL states. Such that any additional, new state whether higher or lower shares the same fundamental essence. This is the true gem of spirituality, finding a peace, recognizing the truth regardless of one’s state. This is what liberates and this is what gives the highest understanding. This path of Actualized.org is like saying the goal is to keep having more and more realistic dreams, rather than waking up and getting out of bed. Of course. And what is the real value of exploring infinity other than to satisfy one’s own curiosity, or truly, to end one’s suffering of the dissatisfaction of the sober state. Buddhism recognizes there is an infinity of mind, and states of consciousness. If you read the texts you’d know this. What Buddhism recognizes is that these states are not the ultimate truth, nor do they resolve any of the existential conundrums of man. If you want to explore them, great! Explore. There is value there, in the relative world. But when you start shitting on the path to truth and fooling yourself into thinking this exploration is “higher” than enlightenment, you’re fucked and much worse, leading others astray.

The exact same criticism and rationality applies to your understanding of traditional spirituality.

This is what Im critiquing

Nothing about your experience is invalid. The actuality and ontological implications of your experience aren‘t invalid either. The metaphysical ranking you’re giving them though, the importance you’re giving them, is a distraction and based on what you’re saying, false. This falshood is not to say they’re invalid or not real. The meaning is false. Thinking this is anything other than more mind and somehow higher than God or beyond God is false. Chasing these altered states will only lead to misery when you understand impermanence and the ruthless, relentless torrent of rebirth and as much as you’d love to distract yourself from, suffering. This Leo character is a fraction, a fiction, a pure fantasy to Truth. Know what you really are, and a dancing alien mouse or burning alive in full lotus can’t touch you. The work or lack thereof you do in this life has real consequences my friend. Tread carefully.

Yep. Watching this spiral out of control has been such a teaching. If anyone thinks they understand Buddhism without thousands of hours of meditation, really 10,000+ minimum, they’re completely deluded. Trying to understand Buddhism without traveling into the subtlety of the sober mind is going fail. Hence the steaming pile of shit we see unfolding with Alien consciousness and Earth consciousness. Which btw, are super cool and have profound implications for the nature of consciousness and reality, but nothing to do with Enlightenment other than they obscure the deepest truth when clung to like Leo is doing. The clinging, that is the stench, that is the hubris and self deception in action, that is the Devil. Buddhism is not the truth, it is a path to the truth and not only path. There is Advaita, Christianity, Sufism, etc. Truth transcends all of it and a real Buddhist understands this. However, Buddhism teaches more than a path to the Absolute, so there is more. Many Buddhists do get lost in the weeds, and many turn Buddhism into the goal, not recognizing the goal is beyond Buddhism. But this has nothing to do with Buddhism, only the seeker’s misunderstanding or in this case, the skeptics. Once one crosses the shore, there is no need to carry the boat on one’s back.

What a phenomenal write up. Love the guru analogy.

There does seem to be a growth of wisdom associated with traversing different states. Similar to how traveling by itself can nurture the growth of wisdom.

Whatever is happening, moment by moment, is reality. How could it be otherwise? Anything outside of your direct experience is just more thought. When one knows the world, one understands the world goes nowhere, even with closed eyes.

Mostly because there is enormous depth to what can be achieved on this path that isn’t found by intellectually grasping the teachings. Just so happens what is achieved is a direct function of what is let go of. Most people, most likely including yourself, are still tightly clinging to a myriad of unconscious thoughts, beliefs, and orienting contexts that frame your sense of reality. Some may even be conscious. Spirituality is about letting go of all of this, and allowing right speech, action, and thought to arise out of this letting go of clinging and by extension, purification of craving, and by extension, extinction of ignorance around the nature of reality, moment by moment. Be careful assuming you understand. True understanding is not found in the mind, but in one’s direct ordinary experience, manifesting as the behaviors one engages in.

@BlessedLion Any reactivity I felt from Leo’s comment is my responsibility. I have no issues and took no offense. Nor did I feel Leo seriously meant anything by it. Kinda like when a Zen monk whacks someone with the proverbial stick. If the student takes it personally, that’s where their work is. Loving teachers don’t always show up in how the ego mind projects.

I used to agree with this sentiment. Meditation + psychedelics are the way to go. And I think for beginner practitioners I do still generally agree with this stance. But the last handful of trips I've done have pretty noticeably disrupted momentum with meditation. They've created these microscopic fluctuations in the quality of my attention and created what could be described as small yet detectable rips in my energy body, energy just doesn't flow as harmoniously a week post trip compared to what I'm leading into the trip with. Because of all of the retreats I've done, my sensitivity to the energy body and mind are way way way higher than when I first began using psychedelics, which is probably why I'm able to see these disruptions now vs. then. However, because of the highly deconstructive nature of psychedelic experiences, I still think they are incredibly useful for most beginners and because of the immense power they have for working through healing, emotional blockages and even energy blockages, I still think they are incredibly useful. In fact, I personally think mainstream psychedelic usage will be a necessity for humanity to confront the growing number of existential threats facing the planet. Collectively, we need something more powerful than meditation to snap us out of our delusion. That all being said, for advanced meditation practitioners who have experienced God many times, who have faced death many times on psychedelics, the work becomes about rewiring the default state of mind to merge with the absolute nature of God's mind. Meditation does this, particularly when one has the vast understanding from prior psychedelic usage, a kind of energetic vision of where the path leads. But ultimately the rewiring process takes place at supra-subtle levels of mind that simply cannot be accessed via psychedelics due to their overwhelming power and intensity, as well as their transitory quality. The microcosmic changes meditation produces simply are not produced from psychedelics, but these changes are required to transform the meditator's mind into again, the mind of God. Because this process of slowly transforming the mind is so delicate, subtle, and demands an extremely advanced attentional clarity, I am not convinced regular psychedelic usage makes sense for advanced practitioners. Occasional usage I think would have benefit. Perhaps once every 4 - 12 months. Psychedelics are also useful litmus tests for how strong one's practice is. If you can't remain clear while reality is crumbling around you, is your practice really that strong? However again, because the process of rewiring the mind from the unconscious to the conscious is so delicate, subtle, and demands an extremely advanced attentional clarity all of which frequent or even infrequent use of psychedelics can disrupt, I am not convinced regular psychedelic usage makes sense for advanced practitioners. This is most likely why teachers are against their usage. The consequences of psychedelics on the energy body and ability for the mind to access subtle aspects of itself while in the sober state is not very well understood in the west. All of this being said, I am still a proponent of their use, especially for noobies, especially in the context of healing, and even more so in the context of existential risk.

Ive listened to people who’ve meditated for less and are mind blowing. Stepping into their presence sends me into instant, deep samadhi. Are these kinds of teachers rare? Yes of course. The training quality and personal intentionality one practices with vary greatly person to person. How deeply one deconstructs varies from person to person as well, which impacts the depth one can achieve with practice. You’d be wise to drop this “meditates for 40 years and gets nowhere” nonsense.

Many are deluded I agree, but not all, and this doesn’t negate the value of the teachings. Just look at your audience. This is like saying I don’t eat because eating is a dream. Horrible logic. Anyways yes, meditation is a dream, psychedelics are a dream, and it’s the self interacting with itself, playing with itself endlessly.

> Has barely done any meditation training > Hasnt been on a meditation retreat in years > Routinely shits on meditation and meditation teachers > Has a questionable daily practice > trust me bro ?

With sufficient training you can sustain these states throughout the day.

Beautiful.

Yeah this has been an interesting thread…

Good. Will help clear things up, especially for noobies. And if experiencing radical levels of fulfillment, the divinity of the ordinary mind/state, dramatic levels of emotional wellness, and the embodiment of truth are all waste of time, well Im ready to waste this entire life away. ?

A real Buddhist understands impermanence is a teaching specific to form.

/thread

@Leo Gura on what basis do you include Ralston on this list?

You’ve got it backwards. A non awake being needs a teacher more than someone who’s awakened. Why is it so difficult to see how a teacher would be helpful? Why is it so difficult to see a teacher being helpful is not the same as thinking a teacher can give you awaking?

No one is saying hand one’s ultimate authority over to a guru, although even that can have a certain power if you’ve found a trustworthy, legitimate guru. No one is saying a guru can give you enlightenment. A guru, teacher, guide merely facilitates a more efficient path to awakening than trying to do it alone. When walking the path completely alone, one is bound to become gridlocked in their own shadows, hidden biases and beliefs, and ultimately stuck in self-deception. Having feedback, in any domain whether spiritual, intellectual, physical, is indispensable. Missing this point is a sign of foolishness and arrogance. Having feedback is not the same as believing the guru can give you awakening. It is a position of trusting that what comes from within and with out are both sources of information. Learning to discern which ‘frequencies’ of information are helpful, again both external and internal, is part of the cultivation of wisdom and intuition. As an aside, everyone who’s parroting this of independence is missing the fundamental point that there was never such a thing as independence. You wouldn’t even be in a position to take a stance on independent authority if it weren’t for numberless external factors (including teachers!) paving some kind of path for you to walk.

@Kksd74628 Im not sure why my communication came across so clearly to you but keeps stirring the pot in others.. ? But yes exactly, what you’re describing is spit on.

One of the deepest traps on the path is believing in your own independence and trusting that which is untrustworthy. The tricky part is that while the ego is untrustworthy, it also lacks the clarity to recognize it’s own untrustworthiness. To throw out the utility of spiritual masters before you’re ready is a dire mistake and can lead one down many dead ends, such as psychedelics being the route to real awakening, or neo advaita like ideology as @axiom seems to have adopted. There is no spiritual master, which is precisely why it is a good idea to trust in one. To trust in a masters help is to trust in yourself. To recognize the interconnectedness of all is wisdom. To separate and cling, as the OP implies, is foolishness. Edit: if you think any of these comments suggest a master can do the work for you or somehow give you awakening, you’re projecting. This is not what I am suggesting at all. But a master, a real one and one you resonate with, can see ways you’re deluding yourself and point them out. When encountering a real master, there is no longer a you encountering a master, just a culminating of powerful forces interacting, reality working itself out without any self interference.