Consilience

More popular. The need for a massive, collective growth in the qualities of wisdom and compassion are rapidly growing. Humanity is walking off a cliff and taking the entire planet with it; run away climate change may very well be an inevitability at this point. The only glimmer of hope humanity has is if we become wiser and more compassionate, which is essentially the byproduct of spirituality done correctly. Through a combination of widespread psychedelic usage and mass adoption of contemplative practice, there is still hope. However, if we just keep repeating these collective cycles of destructive behavior, yeah it’s only a matter of time before a very painful shift happens. Again, a shift that doesn't just threaten humanity but all life on Earth, more than it already is.

This. So much this. I would add that in addition to not using an effective strategy, as you seem to indicate with "low quality nonsense, these people are also vastly underestimating how much meditation is needed to see serious results, are never going on retreats, are basically thinking 30 - 60 minutes per day will get them somewhere. And while it will to some extent, the profound, life shattering results meditation is capable of providing typically need something along the lines of 2+ hours per day plus frequent retreat training. If one is serious about liberation, 2+ hours per day is very easy to find time for. Of course, most people are terrified of actually getting their hands dirty and doing the work and would prefer spiritually bypassing/spiritually bullshitting themselves, hence the explosion in popularity of the Neo Advaita like messaging.

“Samaneri Jayasara - Wisdom of the Masters”on YouTube

That obviousness can be extremely shallow, or extremely clear. And even still, this clear seeing doesn’t reveal “what am I?”

Are you speaking from belief or direct experience? How can you trust your answer either way?

And yet only a fool doesn’t pass through, walk, begin, or end.

I would say this is possible, and equally and perhaps more possible for Jim Newman and Tony Parsons followers. How enticing would it be to jump to the end of the path? To feel accomplished, like I finally got it! Rather than the honest and at times painful admittance that I don’t know. The ego hates not knowing. It seeks answers, security, assurance, invulnerability, all of which Neo Advaita provide to its followers. In my own experience, it’s not that “so many years of seeking and practice must count for something.” It’s more like I am continually and utterly humbled by the depth of this path, work, what is possible, and simultaneously how much “Ive done” and how much further there is to go. It would be like a casual gym goer telling a professional bodybuilder yeah lifting weights may help some with growing muscle, but it’s all about nutrition anyways. How does the bodybuilder respond?

I would say this is possible, and equally and perhaps more possible for Jim Newman and Tony Parsons followers. How enticing would it be to jump to the end of the path? To feel accomplished, like I finally got it! Rather than the honest and at times painful admittance that I don’t know. The ego hates not knowing. It seeks answers, security, assurance, invulnerability, all of which Neo Advaita provide to its followers. In my own experience, it’s not that “so many years of seeking and practice must count for something.” It’s more like I am continually and utterly humbled by the depth of this path, work, what is possible, and simultaneously how much “Ive done” and how much further there is to go. It would be like a casual gym goer telling a professional bodybuilder yeah lifting weights may help some with growing muscle, but it’s all about nutrition anyways. How does the bodybuilder respond?

@VictorB02 Thank you brother ?? Thank you for the kind words. I respect your path as well and hope you find true happiness. If this message feels in alignment, truly, well yeah you can’t not follow your heart. I speak as someone who feels somewhat intermediate on the path, advanced enough to see the mind breaking possibility of what a lifetime of practice results in. I also seem to have a strange capacity to empathize with the massive amount of suffering all beings experience, seeing very clearly our capacity to suffer. I also see how suffering is a mis-perception though. Ive broken through enough times with massive amounts of physical and emotional pain during practice to see how these are what occur when one is not perceiving reality objectively or in alignment with truth. The uncompromising message may sound nice, but when the spiritual rubber meets the road, if reality still has the capacity to steam roll us in an ocean of suffering, we are not enlightened. End of story. Seeing and perhaps even catching the ox, ie seeing the illusory nature of self, is just the starting point and is at best what this uncompromising message provides, maybe. At worst, it facilitates a deeply twisted spiritual bypassing process wherein a sense of self is created out of the *belief* in a lack of self or “this is it” mentality, rather than the true, authentic, embodied clear seeing. There is so much further to go.

How are you making that assessment from the above passage?

This entire reply really illuminates how tricky identification with ego/sense of self can be. There’s an entire self fabricated out of this neo advaita like philosophy you preach on the forum. In actuality, the ego doesn’t want to meditate, or find truth. It thinks it does, until truth starts “finding” the ego, at which point the path is like a gravity well pulling in on itself without control or without the ability for this process to stop. At that point, the work begins to grow like an acorn growing into a tree, completely naturally. There is no choice but to continue. In actuality, the ego loves avoiding responsibility and work. It loves telling stories about how awake it is, about how it’s liberated and sees selflessness. This is the common mark of spiritual ego, a fragile state and trap indeed. Pray life never tests your “realization.” In actuality, this is a conceptual movement of mind from a mind too untrained to notice, a mind too caught in conceptual falsehood to see the lack of depth to its realization. Perhaps not the case for *you* specifically, but a common trap from those caught in the sales pitch of Neo Advaita. The real irony from this whole Neo Advaita movement is there is something to find, something so profound and subtle it could never be communicated. There is something available that can be discovered. For those that have discovered it, it is self-evident, selfless, and seen as that which is truly sacred about life.

This would only happen with very poor meditation instructions, very poor effort, no teacher or community, and no real consistent extended retreat practice. As one develops their practice, these things naturally align. I have no clue where this idea that one could meditate for 40 years and nothing happens comes from on this forum. No idea where this attraction to polar ends of the spectrum on this forum come from either: 1) Meditation is useless - Psychedelics are the way 2) Meditation is useless - THIS is it. Meditation is just ego. Interesting how both diminish the value of sitting. There's pretty much 2 premises one needs to start with to understand meditation as a path to Enlightenment. If you don't accept these premises, you're screwed. 1) Reality has the capacity to shroud itself in illusion and ignorance. - In its infinite capacity, it has the capacity for existential self-deception. 2) Reality can be seen more clearly through paying attention. - As magical as this may seem, if we pay attention, we understand more deeply; you don't accept this, again you're screwed. Craving, aversion, and attachment push and pull on perception, creating this mirage and illusion. Craving, aversion, and attachment are how perception *appears* when one's mind and by extension, infinite consciousness, doesn't have the capacity to deeply pay attention. Perception appears to fight with itself due to a lack of existential clarity. The great news is we can train ourselves, or rather, consciousness can begin to pay attention. As it pays attention, Truth is revealed. As Truth is revealed through this purification or cultivation of perceptual non-interference, suffering is uprooted and an underlying happiness, the only invulnerable form of happiness (spoiler - it's formless), is seen. The paradox is that this Truth was always so, hence why it is THE TRUTH. Yet, this Truth is so grandiose, so infinite, so paradoxically twisted, it even has the capacity to appear as not truth. Meditation is simply the path by which we're revealing what has already been so, a clear seeing through all delusional movements of mind. If you think you're work is complete, you're living a very privileged, comfortable, life. If the harshness of reality were to reveal itself, the Neo Advaitan would crumble. One's capacity for suffering is a true mark of how much one is actually conscious of truth. Meditation is the path by which this fundamental conundrum is no only uprooted, but by which one's mind is transparent enough for consciousness to awaken to itself.

“If you don’t seek an invitation to hell, never slander the Tathagata’s teaching.” - Shodoka, Song of Awakening Buddha’s Zen Buddha said: "I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasures of gold and gems as so many bricks and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as a golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the illuminated ones as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons." - Zen Flesh, Zen Bones The Neo Advaita message and “enlightenment” is pathetically half backed compared to true Liberation, true Freedom, true Enlightenment. The nothing and non-message of a Zen master is in an entirely other dimension compared to “Uncompromising Non-duality,” which is just fast food for the spiritual ego eager to cling to false attainments, and partial awakenings. The conceptual map may sound so good, but to truly embody what is being pointed towards takes relentless purification of mind and authentic awakening, both of which don’t happen mentally masturbating to “non-messages.” So many traps, so many traps. As one develops in their practice, it starts to become increasingly obvious who’s the real deal. Ive yet to find any of these Neo Advaita teachers who is. Bottom line - keep going ?

Rest in peace https://youtu.be/WuepYo3dRa8

I recently made this video for my YouTube channel. I know self promotion is a tricky line here on the forum. I typically keep my content to myself and personal social media channels, but this one felt appropriate for the forum. This is a community I am apart of and I personally think there are more people here that would benefit from this message than any of my other social medias like Facebook or Instagram. I wanted to share not from a space of self-promotion, but because I genuinely believe in this message. I believe in the rippling effect that would occur if more people understand the cascading qualities of serious contemplative practice (meditation) and its place with supporting humanity. Overall, this video and post come from the "relative" domain; i.e. this isn't an absolute perspective. But from a relative point of view, the planet is dying and there are still countless sentient beings suffering. This video and my decision to join a monastic training environment stems from this recognition and at risk of sounding egoic, stems from a compassion that acknowledges the unity of the second noble truth - there is suffering. Below is what I've posted on other platforms. If you're interested in discussing anything or have questions, I'd be happy to respond. - I don’t typically “believe” in much. But one thing I wholeheartedly believe in is the mass adoption of meditation would serve humanity’s collective flourishing. There are a growing number of existential risks we will be facing in the 21st century - Climate change, a mass extinction event, A.I., gene editing, horrible wealth inequality, bioweapons, drone warfare technologies, etc. Though our technological development is at an unprecedented peak, our collective capacity for compassion is severely lagging behind. Humanity doesn’t lack knowledge, technology, or intelligence for solving the many problems of our planet. We lack wisdom and compassion. Meditation, when practiced consistently and across a lifetime, facilitates these domains of human development to a radical degree. So again, though I don’t “believe” in much, it is it is my firm and unapologetic belief that wide-scale adoption of this practice would benefit Earth and all of her inhabitants. I believe that the mass adaption of meditation practice can dramatically support our collective flourishing both personally and collectively by providing a space for the effective responding to these growing existential risks. If you’re interested in this topic and why I’m going into monastic training environment, check out the video.

@happyhappy @BipolarGrowth @ardacigin Thank you ❤️

Really interesting. Thank you so much for sharing, and again just thank you for sharing your experiences with this post’s detailed responses.

Thank you man! ? Yes thank you for pointing it out. It feels like most everyone is in denial about how bad things are getting, mainly because it hasn’t stressed our societal infrastructure enough. But the effects are slowly seeping in. That’s really cool. If you have to calling Id highly recommend! Keep the forum posted if you find someplace ? And thank you for the support ??❤️

I know because of my personal experience with rigorous meditation. I wish I could communicate how radically my baseline state of being has shifted from before starting on the path to now. It’s utterly beautiful how much life has transformed and Im continually blown away by how deep meditation is. Every time I sit down it feels like Im microdosing on psychedelics, often times it feels stronger than a microdose. But this has only come after very intense practice. How do I know? By reflecting on my own experience. I mean seeking without the attachment of finding any answers. The joy of curiosity and the path is not in the breakthroughs, but with the pursuit of the path itself. For example, the hours upon hours one spends in meditation wont lead to breakthroughs or insights. Insights do arise but are the overwhelming minority. Yet those hours we spend will be some of the most fulfilling in our lives. Once it’s recognized there is no one actually seeking, the energy of seeking can fully flower in a relaxed, spontaneous, and powerful way. This seeking comes from the detachment of being anyone or anything at all. The belief in a separate self is what creates the contraction around seeking that some spiritual communities criticize. Something valuable is lost if one prematurely stops before full enlightenment. I can’t communicate what is lost. The only way you’d truly know is by gaining that which cannot be gained, attaining that which was always so, and contrasting its significance in your own experience. If your decision feels authentic, then don’t let me dissuade you. No judgements persay and certainly no fear. Ive just seen this type of rationale before. The possibility for self-deception and avoiding the work is rampant in many. But also, practice, the work, the path all have contractive periods. Sometimes we must contract before we expand. Sometimes an entire life is one of contraction. Im not saying that’s the case here, just sharing thoughts.

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I'm saying there's a difference between conceptually believing what your original post is talking about, and realizing it in one's own experience, assuming it's even true. The conceptualization of spiritual insight is what leads to nihilistic responses. Directly realizing these things leads to liberation from suffering. If we are still suffering as a result of a spiritual insight, there is still craving/aversion going on somewhere in experience, which is essentially the bottom most level of what creates the sense of separation, ie creates the sense of a separate self. The difference would be meditation is leading towards purification and embodied insight, whereas going about on autopilot may not be liberating. It takes a high level of mindfulness for the activities of daily life to start liberating one's view of reality into the objectivity of existential insight. It can be done yes, you are correct. But usually this takes an enormous front end amount of meditation practice and levels of mastery I doubt anyone on this forum has. To really answer your own question would require meditating all day and then comparing that with just living normally on autopilot. If you're serious about exploring the potential of meditation and what meditating all day is actually like/how the mind responds to such a practice, I recommend going to a meditation retreat with a teacher you resonate with.

@integration journey I've only done 1 and it was 14 days. Extremely intense work but stupid effective but also stupid difficult... I don't really think it would have been as effective online. Part of the transformative process was sitting in the presence of another face to face. Staring into another's eyes like that is extremely opening and transformative in its own way. I feel that some of the "juice" would be missing if it was online. That said, I've attended multiple meditation retreats online all of which have been phenomenal. I believe because meditation is more of a personal journey than the CCE's during a E.I., it goes more smoothly online.

This seems really conceptual. You’ve seen enough to intuitively know? Conceptually intuiting these things is distinct from directly experiencing them. For the ego mind, yes these “insights” will feel dark and scary. But when their actuality is realized, there is no ego to interpret the realizations as dark or scary. Therefore, the possibility for happiness independent of conditions is there. Id recommend more serious meditation, listen/learn from actual masters (Samanari Jayasara Wisdom of the Masters YouTube channel is a great resource), and be weary of the ego turning psychedelic breakthroughs into beliefs. Peter Ralston calls this the Lava Syndrome. Turning breakthroughs into beliefs.

This ^^ A couple of points - Whether reaching the thoughtless state is necessary or unnecessary I cannot say. Im simply pointing towards an insight into the nature of thoughts that can be described as a stillness that is more absolute than the transient movements of mind. - I am not afraid of attempting to still the mind, Ive done it many times in meditation and have failed many times in meditation. Thoughts always return. A still mind can be very powerful for purification and insight, but is not always necessary. - Yes self inquiry will silence the mind eventually. Ive had experiences with such deep self inquiry the entire self structure has collapsed into a void of infinity where there is no longer the psychological ground for thought to exist. Yet thoughts return. The goal of self inquiry is not to silence the mind, though that can happen. The goal of self inquiry is to become conscious of the nature of self - this nature is true even in states of mental stillness or activity.

Thank you man Ill keep everyone posted for sure