winterknight

When you directly know, beyond any doubt, that you've never had to go anywhere, that all along you've been there, that you never left that perfect quiet peace beyond time and space and limitation which you are.

Well, the ultimate truth is that it's never seen as true, it is never acted upon, and thus never becomes actual.

Any question about the spiritual path to which you actually want to know. If your motivation in asking is to further your own quest for the truth. Look into your feelings and decide for yourself.

You can either: a) do self-inquiry... but you don't have to go through the whole process... once it is natural, you may simply have to remind yourself with a single tiny thought and suddenly you will be back in the state of peace or b) if you feel prepared for it, attempt to surrender... let go of all thought, feeling, expectation, desire, action. just totally relax and "be"... whatever happens It may seem as if I'm having normal thoughts still... so to say that they are there but I have no attachment is an approximate truth. But the truer truth is that one cannot even say that the normal thoughts are there. What can one really say, if one is being totally truthful? Absolutely nothing at all.

Right, so that's one way of looking at things. From my perspective, all "movement" is illusion. There's nothing actual about it.

You're welcome! And sure, no problem.

You're welcome, and yes, that's close, but even the illusory quality is itself part of the illusion. It is not even "really just Maya" -- Maya itself isn't really there. The image that comes to mind is something that seems like a black hole in space, but as soon as you examine it, the black hole sucks itself up, leaving just space. There's not even a trace of it left. You blink and realize it was never there to begin with. It never sucked itself up, even. It simply wasn't there. So what did you see? You were mistaken in thinking that you saw anything.

Hahaha. Luckily that's not how it works. The universe is a mystery... but if you inquire into the I that mystery is resolved in a way that you won't be able to understand unless you experience it yourself.

No, if you are experiencing peace and an I-free state, no need to disturb it. To take the dream/waking analogy, science operates within the dream. Science is correct within the dream. But the dream science does not apply to the waking state. "Living animals," "time," etc. -- these are all dream concepts. You cannot mix dream concepts and the Self. In the Self there are neither living animals nor time. Your question is like asking "When I woke up from the dream, did all the other people in my dream wake up too?"

Well this is where it gets tricky. Part of the illusion aspect of maya is that the very idea that it appears at all is part of that illusion. Seekers cannot understand this, which is why it is rarely said. Though I've said it on this thread a few times. "Appearance" is a mental category. The reason maya is illusory is that the mind creates all categories, but when you see that the mind is a self-referential thought against the background of the Self, that it only exists through the lens of itself, all the categories are seen as wrong. "Hand," "sensation," etc. -- all are in these categories. When you remove all the categories, you are reduced to silence. You cannot say that anything is happening or appearing. There will be no nihilism if the mind is silent and the Self is recognized. The Self is absolute peace and fulfillment and perfection, and it is compensation for all the "losses" of illusory entities like the body and mind.

Well, technically self-inquiry isn't necessarily free of thought... especially at the beginning, you might have to think about why you aren't certain things. "I'm the son of so-and-so, and I do this job, and I'm the kid who broke his arm at the age of 8 while playing tennis, right?" But then you might have to think about the fact that "I am aware" of each of those things... and thus none of them can be the light that illuminates all experience. None of them can be the I. So that's the application of rational thought to experience. Self-inquiry will, however, eventually lead to a thought-free state. Or rather an I-free state. Or rather a state free of the normal, burdensome I. Even there you can have thoughts, but they will have an entirely different feeling than thoughts had outside that state. They will not even be felt to be thoughts. That state is of course your true & permanent nature. It is a "state" only because you are pulled back out of it because of mental habit... which of course is what has to be overcome through repeated practice of inquiry. Oh, and interesting re: the shaman

Well, science is perfectly correct on its own terms. It understands the physical universe. It is not much concerned with spiritual and philosophical questions. No need to throw science away. Simply understand its limits. It applies to scientific matters only. Don't expect to understand the real meaning of existence through it.

Well, I said in my first post I wouldn't talk much about my path, but I basically got enlightened in the same way that I recommend others do so: The main game is psychologically aligning yourself with your desire, including through psychodynamic/psychoanalytic therapy, and also performing Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry deeply, intensely, and continuously at all times... until you see directly what you really are. You will know for yourself when that happens. If you get an insight, and then fall out of it (almost certain to happen), get back into it via inquiry, over and over and over again until it sticks. You'll know when that happens.

I don't understand. You say many people do not seem to be in touch with thought as movement. What does that mean? It is precisely the characteristic of kind of illusion of maya that it appears to exist, but actually does not. So that which appears to exist but does not -- cannot be said to either exist or not exist. But if you want to simplify it, it simply doesn't exist, it only appears to. Yes, enlightenment and maya are dualistic words pointing to something nondual. The nondual cannot be indicated directly. The distinction is made between maya and Self for the sake of seekers (yes, who themselves ultimately are already enlightened.. but it doesn’t seem that way to them...) Well, now I'm not quite sure what you mean by the Now. And I don't quite know what you mean by sinking the mind. So let me rephrase it. The key point is very simple: you need to be in a clear, calm, mentally peaceful state where the normal "I" sense has vanished. If you can get to that state via any means -- I recommend self-inquiry -- stay in it. If you have experienced that state, and then have doubts like "why is the clock real in the Now but not otherwise" -- that probably means you have fallen out of that state. So repeat and deepen the inquiry. The goal is to stay in that state at all times.

You assume correctly. The whole universe is merely a thought in consciousness. Kundalini, power in the body, karma, the law of attraction, trips, energy -- all are in the realm of illusion. Enlightenment is about the single reality that is unchanging, that is and has always been exactly the same. You can recognize that yourself if you simply inquire into who it is that is experiencing all these trips. That is a misunderstanding of the Now. The clock is always unreal; even to call it a clock is wrong. When you remove the concept of a clock, what remains is the Now. That alone is real. You could say all this -- different people like different language -- but I prefer to say that thought in all its manifestations is simply a misconception. There is no such thing as movement, body, or organism. The idea that there is -- is just a thought. It is something that appears to be real, but actually doesn't exist. Yes, one should avoid going insane. To avoid this, one should get psychodynamic/psychoanalytic therapy. Follow the link and PM me if you need more help getting a referral. If you're feeling like actively hurting yourself or others, go and check yourself into a hospital. Otherwise you are harming your chances at the spiritual search.

No, that's not what I mean. The mind and the physical are both part of the same thing. It is not that the physical is real but the mind is not. The lesson from the university example is that the person had the wrong idea of what a university was. They thought it was a specific building or something. It was an idea. In the same way, there is a misunderstanding about reality that is going on that spiritual seeking can correct. That's all I meant with that example. No, both the mind and the building are on the same plane. As soon as you say "building" -- you've already brought in mind. That example was just to give an example of a misunderstanding, not to compare buildings to thoughts or anything like that. I was never born and will not die, and the same is true of you. I do not live "through" the body-mind and neither do you. The body-mind is an illusion, and nothing can be known for certainty about illusions, because they don't really exist. Actually, in the end thought is itself illusion. Well, you'll have to ask scientists then. Yes, it sounds legitimate to me. The key is to keep that peace with your eyes open in the world all the time, not just sitting with your eyes closed. As you are sitting, talking, walking, etc. -- every waking moment -- stay in that peace with your mind calm and resting. Yes, it cannot be expressed. No need to be expressed. If you have a state of clear peace that you are calling the "timeless void," stay in it through all your activities, every waking moment.

No, even "seeing" cannot be said to be happening. That's part of the misunderstanding. One will never understand till they experience it themselves... This is the problem with analogies . In real life, the buildings are in the university, but in truth, thoughts don't exist, so that they cannot be located in the Self. All I was trying to point out was the idea of a category mistake. Yes, it's an abstraction, but the point was referring to the kind of mistake that ignorance might (vaguely, approximately) be analogized to.

No, this is a different point than this analogy is making. The point of the analogy is that a mistake is made about what it means to be a university. the person is looking for the university, and thinks it is some sort of building or monument or person or something like that. Actually the university is not a physical entity like that. That's not wrong. The point of the analogy is not to say that the university doesn't exist or that it's imaginary. The point of the analogy is to say that the idea of the university as something localizable, something you can point to and say "That's the university!" -- that idea is wrong. So there's a misunderstanding that is corrected... a mistake about what it even means to be something. That's what I was pointing to...

Get really lucky

Well the body-mind only appears to exist and does not really, so in that sense I have no political views. But if we have to talk about the appearance of the body-mind... it must be because it believes and feels that to be the better political philosophy. It has nothing to do with Realization.

Unchanged. Liberal, basically. Yes, physicist-you will never be able to understand this, because this is not science. There are analogies but all of them are wrong. They are only useful as pointers -- meaning, ways to stop the mind of the seeker -- not as descriptors or predictors. But ok, I can give you more. 1. You used to think you lived in a lake. But then you noticed that what you thought was a lake is itself has no boundaries and is surrounded on all sides by water in an ocean. Where did the lake go? 2. You walk around a university, say the University of Texas, looking at all the buildings. "I see this building and that building and various academic-looking types," you ask, "But where is the University of Texas? I don't actually see it anywhere." Now when you realize that this is in fact the University of Texas, and that you had made a mistake regarding what it even means to be a university, where did the old University of Texas, the one you understood to be the case before, go? 3. You used to think that "alskdjalskdjaslkdjas" was a word. You thought you understood exactly what it meant. Then you realized: no, that word doesn't actually refer to anything. In what way is "alskdjalskdjaslkdjas" not real anymore to you?

1. Well, it's not just a matter of permanence now but the realization that it has always been permanent. Yes, there are many glimpses before this realization dawns -- the realization that the realization has already dawned, has never not been there. 2. Liberation is one and has no 'degrees.' The mind may have various other insights, or it may grow quieter over time, but there is a single thing called liberation, and you are it, and it is perfect. 3. When one has a lack of desire to do other things, it may be a desire just to be. And just being is the nature of the Self. But if one cannot recognize the Self because the mind is turbulent, then just being will feel very dissatisfying. It will feel like nothing, boring, ordinary, unimpressive. That's why effort has to be extended to bridge the gap... but the end of that effort as for me to that what was "lack of motivation" was actually the motivation towards the Self.

The Self's very nature is what I'm talking about. The Self's nature is to know itself nondually. That's what it is to be Self. No, I don't think it's a great analogy, but not for reasons I can explain. I get the sense you are trying hard to intellectualize the realization. Your mind is working overtime to try to conquer this problem, to digest it, to "know" it. Not gonna happen. Thinking and the mind must, in the end, be given up to see the Truth. Yes, it is bliss, yes, I am aware of it all at times -- but it is not the bliss that you think of when you think of mental bliss. It is not mental bliss. Mental bliss exists in contrast: "I wasn't blissful, then I did this (say, self-inquiry), then I was blissful." That's mental bliss, the bliss that comes and goes. That's not what I'm talking about. The bliss I'm talking about has never stopped. The mind is not aware of it at all times. I am, though, but not in a mental (that is, dualistic) way. When you realize that the very idea of forgetting the Self doesn't even make sense... that's Enlightenment. Look, we could say that the mind is still active, that the enlightened person also has vasanas that arise. In one sense that is true. In a deeper sense, however, it is not, since the enlightened person does not acknowledge the reality -- or even the appearance -- of the mind. Yes, this sounds correct. Good work. Keep going. Just to be clear, I wouldn't describe it as looking for your consciousness but as looking for the "I." It's a small difference, and they are very related, but I would emphasize the "I." "Here's what I'm doing," you write. Who is this "I" who knows what he's doing? You're already enlightened, so it doesn't matter. But that stream of me thoughts may seem to be quite unnecessarily unhappy. I don't know, sorry. As far as I am concerned these are not related to enlightenment.

Yes it certainly is. The holy mystery. Unfortunately it cannot be pinned down in language like this. It can neither be said to be noticed or unnoticed. It's not merely theoretical. It's not merely a firm mental understanding. It is Being knowing itself directly. There's no way to explain it further than that... But "something is happening" is a mental knowing... it is not mind that knows Self. Mind can never know Self.

There are no seekers who are not breathing generally, but in each moment one can either be breathing or not. You can stop your breath for a while. That means there is a differentiation in the experience. Breaths have beginnings and ends. The goal is actually not quite either understanding/knowledge (though that may be in the mind) nor a tactile experience... There is a very specific nondual, indescribable, "experience-that-is-not-an-experience" that is going on continuously, without the slightest tiniest pause ever. It feels like nothing at all, and yet it is absolutely perfect. It's the clear and continuous recognition of this -- which can only happen by clearing away all the thoughts that usually hide it -- that constitutes the spiritual goal.