KMB4222

@Leo Gura Is this potential course going to require psychedelics?

First issue: On Nov. 16 of last year you posted to your blog (“Amazon’s Corporate Devilry”) a leaked Amazon training video. At the bottom of the post you wrote “Next time you order cheap stuff from Amazon don’t forget all the suffering caused by your survival.” Why do the links on your book list still link to Amazon? Why did you use the qualifier “cheap”, when you could have left that out? Sounds like you were making an excuse. This makes you look like major hypocrite, and calls your legitimacy into question if you can’t even be consistent on that one issue. There are other booksellers you can link to. Is it for money? Is it because you can’t be bothered? (“Don’t forget all the suffering caused by your survival.”) Second issue: Do you think you have formed a reliance on psychedelics for insights and spiritual development? You will probably say that I am demonizing psychedelics. But actually I am calling into question the fact that you can’t seem to go an extended period of time without taking them. If what you have learned is true, then why not experiment with the flipside and stay off them for a while? Could you do a 30-day retreat without them? If not, then why not?

@WhatAWondefulWorld ...

@Leo Gura Thank you for the response. I was actually expecting some condescension from you, and I'm glad to see your response was from a more objective perspective. I still think you are being dishonest and inconsistent in some of what you teach. Sometimes it looks like you put blinders on whenever it's convenient.

@Bill W I was reminded of something earlier today that might also be useful. A while back I read a book called Enlightenment: Behind the Scenes (by Marc Leavitt). Most of the book was about his enlightenment and how it happened. But there was one short part towards the end that I've always found helpful. He briefly outlines what he feels are the essential steps to becoming awakened (I don't have the book on hand so I am taking this somewhat out of context and might get the wording wrong). One component, he says, is deciding what you want and dropping the struggle. If I remember correctly, the line read "Drop the struggle, no matter how subtle, as soon as you become aware of it." What I like about this idea is that you can apply it to any struggle that you feel arising that you want to drop. It gets you into a space where you can feel what is arising, how it feels in the way it is affecting you, and allows you the space to drop it, either gradually or suddenly. The nice thing about becoming aware of subtle struggles is that as you learn how they arise and what they are you can then say to yourself "Ah, there you are again." In a sense you get to know the struggle better, and shine the light on it, so to speak When I think of letting go, I usually think it means letting go (of an attachment). In my experience attachments tend to be longer-lasting, whereas moments of struggle typically arise and fade. So letting go might be useful in the overall handling of something, and dropping the struggle might be useful in acknowledging the more momentary attachments as they arise. Of course, as long as the technique works for you, then you can call it whatever you want and use it in whatever way gives you the most benefit or progress. Hope this helps a bit more!

I'll try to describe my experience of letting go of as much as possible, and experiencing a brief moment of clarity. I'm not referring to a clarity of 'knowing'. What I'm referring to is a clarity of not knowing and not not knowing. I think it took me getting to a place where I was dissatisified with everything anyone had ever taught and anything I had ever read. Of course, if it weren't for the videos and books then I probably wouldn't have been brought to this point at all. But nevertheless, I had to be completely okay with throwing all of it away (even for just a moment). I had to bring myself to a point where I was no longer afraid to admit that it didn't matter what anyone said - none of it was going to work for me. I went through a process of letting go of various things: -all ideas of ever achieving anything or reaching any state or heightened level -all notions of attainment -the idea that there is something beyond here and now, and that I could ever perceive or attain it -of becoming something other than this (including the notion of ever knowing what "this" is) -attachment to all addictions, distractions, habits, thought patterns -the idea of letting go of anything (letting go of letting go) -ever having anything that I don't already have -all techniques, practices, expectations, beliefs, teachings -ever thinking that I would know, or be correct about anything -the need to know my true existential nature, or 'solve' this mystery of existence or what I am What did this moment of clarity feel like? Mostly like nothing at all. But there was a slight sense of peace in experiencing something that felt truer than anything anyone had ever been pointing at. Or maybe this is what they were point at. But who knows? If it's impossible to describe what the finger is pointing to, then it's impossible to know if what they describe is what I experienced. I also get the sense that I don't need to know what it was, nor do I need to call it something. I also know that I didn't need to talk about it. But once you come out of these things, it sure is nice to share them

@Bill W Wow! I'm glad to hear that this has been that useful to you. All the best!

@Bill W That's awesome that you were able to identify something that wasn't working for you and decided it wasn't worth it. It can be tough, especially when our habits are tied in to many other aspects of our everyday lives. From my experience the most effective letting go is the one that seems almost immediate. We may use strategies to get to that point, but something just snaps, and the let go happens almost instantaneously. It can be a bit of a challenge figuring out how to let go because we keep running in circles trying to find the best way. Only then do we get so tired of circling back on our old attempts to let go that we realize that the actual letting go moment is more immediate than any plan will take us. Another helpful (and somewhat related) tip I remember hearing was to decide and act at the same time. I don't remember what this person was talking about, but the essence is that by deciding and acting at the same time (or in one fluid movement) you are essentially bypassing the self-doubt part of your psychology, so you can get right to taking action and making change. I think this might be useful in transitioning from one thing to another. For example, letting go of drinking coffee and choosing to drink more water. The letting go of drinking coffee is accompanied by drinking water. I don't think this is what the person was actually talking about, but I think it's still useful to some degree.

@Bill W Thank you as well. I've always liked the way Osho tries (tried) to cut through the crap and get to the heart of the matter. Some people try to do the same thing, but end up conceptualizing or philosophizing about it, and end up going about it in a haphazard way, which isn't very useful. It just fills the mind with too much direction. Some direction is useful, but only enough to get you there. I guess you could think of it like driving directions. If you get too hung up on how to get there, you might end up stuck somewhere along the way. If I remember correctly, all of Osho's books (or at least the ones released nowadays) are compiled by the Osho International Foundation, based on Osho's lectures. I don't know enough about him to know if he actually wrote anything down himself. So this probably helps his books seem more to the point. I haven't read Trust in a long time, to be honest. One thing I always appreciated about Osho's books is that he gets you to a place as you're reading where you realize you don't really need to read the book. But you have to begin reading to discover that. Just one of those catches, I suppose. I don't know if Trust will be of interest to you, but I know it was worth it for me The great thing that I have discovered about letting go is that it can be applied to just about anything, even on sublte levels. You can apply it at any time you want, in relation to anything you want, and to any degree that works for you. The interesting thing about the moment I described in my original post is that even with that brief moment of clarity, I was still attached to my addictions and other habits. I don't see it as a moment of complete freedom from anything. It was just a moment of clarity. If I had to express it in words I probably would have said to myself "Hm, so that's what that feels like." It sounds like you have a good grasp on what works for you. Trust that you will know what to do, including knowing when it's time to ask for assistance from outside sources. It's great that you have an idea of what you want to let go of. One thing I found helpful was appreciating that everything I wanted to let go of was also valid in its own way. I don't think it's about getting to a place where you can be free of some 'negative' aspect of yourself entirely. I used to aim for 'perfection', which in my mind at the time meant ridding myself of every little thing that wasn't ideal. But it's also important to aknowledge that something is there. Many people have said that this journey is never complete. I think they are right. However, there are moments of completion along the way. For example, being 100% free of anger might be unrealistic (that is for the individual to determine for themself), but being more mindful or when anger arises, and becoming comfortable with how, when, and to what degree that anger is expressed is also an achievement.

@Bill W What helped me the most to get to that point was a lot of deconstruction, if I'm using the word accurately. Basically, I had to question everything I had heard or read about what reality is, or what my true nature was. I had to admit that every source I had found useful could be completely wrong. Or at the very least deluded in some regard. These experiences are very personal and there really is no way to communicate the experience accurately. So I had to make the letting go very personal. Which also means I had to admit that I myself didn't know either. I'm not entirely sure what @SriBhagwanYogi was referring to. If I remember correctly, Gangaji is a teacher of neo-Advaita (you can find her videos on YouTube). She has a powerful video about letting go, let go of letting go, allow everything to be. That sort of meditation. I think @SriBhagwanYogi may have had the impression that I was talking about letting go of the search entirely, and never coming back to it. In a sense I was, but only for a moment. There is still searching, of course. But I am more confident in my ability to do the searching, rather than relying on anyone else to take me some place.

None of what I should be taken as advice. It's from my experience only, and might not be useful at all to anyone else. I've never understood doing anything 'hardcore'. For me it felt too rigid and unnatural. That might work for some people, but not for others. For me, it's more effective to apply effort skillfully. Of course, that means different things to different people.

@QandC I certainly haven't given up the search. I still have a lifetime to go before my learning comes to an end. It's just that at this point I have a much better idea of where to look.

I haven't given up on my search for what I am. I just know that finding it will come via me and my efforts, no through the direction of someone else. It's just that in this particular moment, I was no longer willing to accept anything anyone had said about my true nature. Whatever I experienced only lasted a brief moment. Maybe it was something. Maybe it was nothing. In regards to your last comment ("just be a robot, rest of the sheep."), I feel there is a certain nuance to discovering your true existential nature. Don't try at all, and you may never find it or know it when you see it. Try too hard, and you might be denying some aspect of reality. I don't think the search for your true nature is about not wanting to be a robot, or not wanting to be a sheep. Of course, no one wants to be. But what if there is some aspect to the truth that does mean we are in some way 'robots' or 'sheep'? I find it's better to allow for possibilities and see where it goes. Maybe in the long run I will just end up being a robot or sheep, but I will have the knowing where there wasn't knowing before.

I know what i am to the best of my current ability, knowledge, understanding, and experience. I do not claim to possess any universal truth or technique. I do not possess any special powers or abilities. I do not have any credentials. I cannot provide answers of an absolute nature. Anything I say relates to my experience alone, and may not be of any help whatsoever. So “what am I?”. I am this body, organism, thing, object, consciousness (whatever you want to call it) experiencing this moment, world, life, experience (whatever you want to call it).

@Key Elements Thank you for the clarification. It adds a bit more understanding to the process (even if it's only conceptual to me at this point). Maybe I will experience it that way as well one day.

@Nahm I'm glad you did. Thank you.

@Mu_ Thank you for the comment and video. It was interesting how you mentioned that different people can have different aspects of the truth. I'm not content with following just one teaching, or taking one person's words as the definitive answer/truth. I'm trying to treat this entire process as a holistic endeavour, with essentially no end-point. I do find myself feeling closed off a bit more than I used to. Maybe I experienced a radical opening up followed by a radical closing off. Rather than coming to the conclusion that I am "this experiencing this", I should let that go as well, and allow another opening up to occur. Thank you for the insight! That was very helpful.

Thank you for the reply. The line above summarizes how I feel about the entire process of waking up. There are elements of what I have learned that I don't share with other people. I've discovered that life is a delicate balancing act, and anything on my part that tips the scales too much in one way or the other is too devastating. It's actually painful to hold onto the truth when you see people around you living unconsciously. I have wondered why those who know the truth (or their experience of it) don't tell people directly. I prefer hearing things very direct (as in Leo's method). I think the genuine teachers are in it to help people either learn the truth or lead better lives while waking up out of delusion. Some teachers are in it for the money, which is sad because it takes advantage of that delicate balancing act. One of my ah-ha moments was that I was never in control, and that my entire life has been lead from the outside. I never choose anything, even when I think I did. My entire life has been an infinite rarity, and I never made any of it what it is. Maybe at the core of this realization is that I am everything. That's just not how it came to me at the time. While I still experience myself doing things, there is also a sense of disconnection. Whatever it is, naming it doesn't seem to make any difference. The here and now seems more real to me than anything I try to connect with. Part of me understands that suffering is a condition of the physical body. If you take away the physical body, then things just are. I had an email exchange a teacher a while back. She told me that enlightenment in the sense of realizing you are God is just a fantasy. I wrote back describing what my gut instinct told me: that life is a beautiful mystery and we can never know why we are here and what we are supposed to do. One day I will die, and that will be the end of me, forever. She confirmed this was the case. She informed me that enlightenment is actually just the normal process of brain and psychological development, with the addition of actively seeking to negate falsity. Even though I think she is correct, there is a part of me that isn't so sure. Maybe that isn't all there is. But then I see myself just wanting to believe, dropping that belief, and ending up right back here and now. Maybe the trouble I am having is that I begin to doubt the validity of my realizations because I see myself forming concepts and beliefs around them. Thank you again for the comment and exchange

You have a point - that truth is realized. I think I am at a stage where I am not willing to just believe anyone's claims anymore. I've done a great deal of work on myself in several areas relating to actualization/enlightenment/consciousness work. I haven't come up with what some people have claimed. I'm not saying it isn't there, just that I haven't found it yet (if it is even there at all). I'm open to the idea that everyone is delusional (including me), and therefore nothing that comes out of anyone's mouth can be taken at face value. Experience is #1 for me. I've had quite a few ah-ha moments, but naming them was never my strong point. What can I really call them except experiences? That being said, I am curious what your understanding of truth is. Maybe we can have a discussion about it and I can learn something. But I do agree that Point #2 is the better way. So if you would rather not discuss it, that's okay, too.

Thank you for the reply. I certaintly won't be charging anyone for their time. I don't have any viewers, followers, or clients of any kind. I am curious about what comes next, though. Maybe there is a deeper truth to this experience. I don't know if there is a deepest truth, if such a thing exists. I feel that not knowing and investigating is a more realistic way of looking at this process. Anything that separates me from the present is a subtle form of escapism. At least in my case. I can't speak for anyone else. From my experience, all thoughts, goals, objectives, notions of attainment, etc. all lead back to now. Maybe there is a deepest truth, and maybe I will see it some day. I find I also have to be willing to not see it some day. Knowing that I may never know brings a radical sense of peace. It isn't a flashy kind of peace where I smile from ear to ear. It's actually more of a visceral existential agony. I still do my practices, but they are to deepen my connection with my direct experience. This is what I have been given, so I work with it and see what happens.

I see what you mean. I've been having difficulty describing what I've learned. In my original post, when I said "whatever you want to call it", I was trying to describe an entire package of not knowing, so to speak. Not limited to the body. Maybe what I was trying to describe is a sense of being present and acceptance of what is. And in my current experience, what is is this experiencing this. I realize this doesn't come across as profound. It's actually quite simple. Just this, right here, as it is. In terms of including this in my life purpose, I find that it fits quite well. My purpose is to help those around me feel better about themselves and about their lives, so they can feel valued and enjoy their lives a bit more (or at least feel better for a short period of time). The more connected I am with the moment the better I am able to ignore my egoic wants and hopefully focus on the other person. And besides that, it just feels good to let go of wanting something other than what already is.

I'll try to help offer a possible answer by describing a situation I found myself in a couple months back. I was on a five-hour flight, and there was a baby that was wailing and crying. Instead of putting my headphones on I decided to listen to it, try to welcome the sound of the crying. I didn't expect it to be pleasant, but thought that there might be something I could learn from it. So instead of trying to ignore it I dove into the sound and how it made me feel. After a few minutes the resistance I felt to the crying subsided and I was beginning to understand it. What was the baby feeling that made it cry like that? Was it hungry? Lonely? In physical pain? Of course, there's no way to know the answer for sure. But that was part of the process. After a few more minutes I realized something deeper, that while it was a frustrating sound to hear, I was actually fortunate in a sense to experience it. I was also glad that I had the courage to face the feelings it brought up. Maybe give that a try. Willingly subject yourself to the barking, and see if you can learn something from it - either about the nature of barking, the nature of wanting, or learn something about yourself. Just be open to it. But also be accepting of the fact that it bothers you. At least you can start with that. This won't mean that it will never frustrate you again, or that the barking won't wake you up at night. It just means your understanding of it will have changed slightly. There are also practical ways of addressing the situation. Can you talk to your neighbours and come to some kind of agreement?

Thank you for the link.

I don't mean to talk a lot of bullshit. I'm trying to be as practical as I can in explaining my experience. My current experience is yes, I am a body (and maybe not the body as well). I have accepted, at least for the time being, that I only know my direct experience, which is this experiencing this. You can call my physical form by any word, it makes no difference. I realize this isn't the typical "I know..." or "I am....ask me anything" thread. I'm trying to point to direct experience in whatever form it takes in any moment, regardless of what I have read in books or what others' experiences have been. There is a profound not-knowing that comes along with just accepting the present moment for what it is. It's scary as hell, I admit. I would rather learn that I was immortal, but maybe that isn't the case. I don't know yet.

I can see where this kind of thinking would be useful, especially in opening up the mind. It feels a bit contrived to me, as if it's pointing in a particular direction at a particular thing or destination. Maybe that's the point of self-inquiry - to point to the formless "I". I haven't done much self-inquiry because I always found it to be too directional, if I can put it that way. I prefer to just rest in my experience and see what it reveals. But thank you for the suggestion. I will have to consider it more going forward. There is a self-inquiry book I purchased which may be of some help. I won't name it, because I think it might be on Leo's book list.