AMS

I am no guru in nutrition either, just been doing a shitload of research that potentially a lot of people aren't able to see because I got sick which meant I could only digest fresh beef (I mention this is detail on the previous page) which opened up a world of alternative information to me. I guess you could call us omnivores but I also have seen that humans can survive (and thrive) on meat exclusively so when thinking about it from a bigger picture perspective, it makes sense that we have evolved to eat meat especially during times of ice ages where plant foods would not be easily available. That's why the graph's I posted above make sense to me, but as you said vegans have their own graphs (which I believe to be false, the fact that other mammals burn fat as their primary fuel says it all to me). People claim that nutrients in plants are not as bio-available as they may seem on paper. The body needs to do certain conversion processes for certain proteins and vitamins (turning beta carotene into vitamin A for example). Also plants (especially grains) have antinutrients such as enzyme inhibitors which prevent adequate nutrient uptake and cause inflammation. Some of these chemicals include phytic acid, lectins, gluten, salicylates and oxalates. It is claimed that these antinutrients can be extracted out of the plants if they are prepared properly (soaking/fermenting) which may be true to a degree (still most don't do this) however this also depletes nutrients and have some antinutrients remaining. Herbivores have these complex guts especially to break down these mechanisms that plants contain. Also fiber is non-digestible to a human and not necessary in the diet, lots of people do better without any at all (when they drop plants completely). Humans also don't have the enzyme to breakdown cellulose at all, which is the main compound of plant material. We can digest starch however if the gut can tolerate it but I think it's secondary to animal products. What I mean by some humans can digest plants better is that they can handle these conversions and can extract the nutrients better than others. According to my theory, some humans have evolved better equipped for plants since the end of the last ice age. I have also read that vegans run off their reserved vitamins and may not notice deficiencies until down the track. I don't have a study off the top of my mind for this, I understand that might discredit me but I haven't looked into it deep enough, just heard it from other resources. I was never vegan but rather paleo then paleo AIP (auto-immune protocol) and standard ketogenic. First eating many healthy plants (no difficult to digest wholegrains, mostly sweet potato and then white rice for energy, white rice because it is easily digested without it's defensive shell). I found relief when discovering a zero plant food group. I understand I could potentially eat plants in the diet once my gut heals but wanted to stress the point that meat must be more soothing for our gut (which it definitely is) than we have been led to believe (at least when eaten in isolation away from carbohydrates). In this graph you can see that animal products have even decreased since 1970 and carbohydrates have gone way up. Also it is true that total calories have gone up, because carbohydrates are addictive by nature and blood sugar is fluxuating which leads to eating more often. Diseases of civilization are rapidly amplifying yet a lot of the world is blaming it on meat. Industrial plant oils are also not included in this graph but I feel they are a problem as well and we are not eating enough saturated animal fat which is actually ideal for us. I understand there are probably other factors involved as well but my point with these posts is to show that maybe there is more than meets the eye to the demonization of meat that we are seeing so strongly atm and that vegans should be more considerate and realize that not everyone will do well on that diet. I posted this playlist of videos in another thread but want to leave it here as well. Whether you dislike the host (Sv3rige) is against the point but he has interviewed many ex-vegans and I have watched episodes where they have presented the great effort they went to to do the diet right. Please no one take this too personally, this is just my perspective on things. I also realize coming about it with such a title 'Veganism a sham?' when I created this thread a few months a go was a bit provocative. I just don't think eliminating meat is the way forward but rather better practice of animal and plant agriculture. Here is a list of a lot of studies against veganism: https://pastebin.com/ZSKczhCx

I can respect you for choosing to eat plants instead but what I am advocating for is that Veganism is not a wise move for the whole world. It is true that certain people seem to be doing fine on a Vegan diet but it is also the case that many are getting sick and are starting to speak out against it. They also claim that they tried various approaches to the diet and supplemented etc. It is also the case that a lot of Science points there but there is Science arguing against it as well and the field of nutritional science at large is rather shaky because a lot of it is based on weak epidemiology and a lot of the philosophies cherry pick and misrepresent data and are biased due to financial interests. Not to mention Veganism maybe seems to be an improvement over the SAD diet (short term at least) because the diet is better regimented and there is a possible healthy user bias. There aren't great long term stats because a lot of people abandon the diet when it isn't working for them and the long term ones are probably the ones genetically better off in digesting plants. Also there are quite a lot of deficiencies, which could also be argued for the SAD diet but imo the problem is that we are not eating enough animal products in both diets and rather too many carbohydrates. I think animal products are necessary for optimal human health for the majority of people and it's not just a taste thing. According to the graphs below our digestive systems are built for meat and we don't have the guts to process fiber nor cellulose like a fore-gut or hind-gut herbivore does (we have too short of a colon, hardly a caecum, don't have the required bacteria for fermentation, don't have multiple stomachs and don't eat our own shit for extra nutrition like a hind-gut herbivore such as a gorilla does). Our metabolism is completely different when eating carbohydrates to that of a proper plant eater. Every mammal eats ketogenic by standard (even herbivores) except for (most) current humans because of how we digest plants (proper herbivores have bacteria which ferment the plant matter into fatty acids which are used as primary source of fuel whereas we burn the glucose). I don't necessarily want to get this thread boiled up again but at the same time I think it is a good reference for people to see it in an objective manner and get both sides of the story. Also death is going to happen either way, what should rather be the focus is the amount of suffering for the animal and trying to minimize that. It could be argued that raising pastured animals to slaughter could potentially reduce their suffering because nature is grueling and there is not another predator out there treating their prey in a humane way like we have the capability to do (of course we could better regulate the practices). Maybe a better future would be for ethically raised meat and locally produced plants rather than supporting industrial agriculture because suffering also happens in crop production to the generations of animals who had their habitat destroyed.

This is a good point and something I failed to see when creating this thread. I still standby my point of Veganism not being the best thing for our health nor planet however... Since researching some more I definitely agree there is a problem with the way animal food is being produced on an industrial scale (factory farming). Here is a graph from a carnivore advocate whom I follow (not sure of the source however) but if it is accurate then it shows that CATTLE (who spend the majority of their life grazing and in which most get grain finished to speed up the process and to produce more meat) don't require as much crops for food as some may think. Also when done correctly, rotating grazing cattle can regenerate the soil by locking carbon into it. In a vegan world non-renewable fossil fuels are used which kills the top soil. Putting more of a focus on grazing animals could actually reverse desertification to a lot of land and produce nutrient dense food for humans at the same time. Meat is nutritionally more bio-available to humans than plants due to the way our digestive systems have evolved (we are not herbivores but rather have a GI tract closer to that of a carnivore). There would also be less wastage because meat is energy dense and satisfying. Some claim that it could even improve the world hunger issue because there could be more of a focus put on local farming practices which improve local economies rather than third world countries having to rely on the cheap grain we sell to them which fucks them over in the long run.

That made me think of a post by a carnivore advocate I follow. Here's a screen shot of it. Once again, I find it difficult to believe that meat causes health problems as we are older if our CURRENT digestive systems are so capable of digesting it. One of the arguments on the site you mentioned against Paleo: "The Paleolithic period represents just the last two million years of human evolution. What did our bodies evolve to eat during the first 90% of our time on Earth?" Imo two million years is a damn long time for a lot to change (check out the digestive system graphs I posted above). I'm not denying that way back in the past we could have eaten more plants just arguing that our current digestive system doesn't support it well anymore because we adapted to meat. I think Paleo is a healthier alternative than most diets but still not as effective as Keto anyway, because we are the only mammal in nature that burns glucose as primary fuel because we are eating lots of carbohydrates (ideally shouldn't be) and this is how the current human gut processes them (doesn't make sense to me that that could ever be the healthiest diet for us?)...this should be a secondary function when meat isn't around. You can find many vegan youtubers standing strongly behind all these cherry picked studies and going back and forth constantly "debunking" the new flux of information sticking up for meat but I don't buy it. I have seen way too much (long-term) anecdotal evidence showing keto and carnivorous eating reversing a huge amount of serious diseases not to mention many vegans (and vegan youtubers) ditching veganism after claiming to have tried various approaches to it, and some for years. It seems like a non concrete experiment to me and far from a sure thing, even with all these studies.

I don't think it is as simple as that. There is research out there showing that our digestive systems are more equipped to digest meat than plants. You can see this chart here comparing our human gut relative to some other primates. Here you can see that our colon is much shorter and our caecum (appendix) much smaller. These are important biological parts for breaking down plant matter. True herbivorous primates are hindgut fermenters meaning they have complex bacteria in their colon (and caecum) which ferment the plants and turn the matter into fatty acids for the animal to burn as fuel. Humans don't do this process to the degree those other herbivores do, digesting fiber and cellulose comes at a price (may be subtle for some), not to mention the antinutrients (defense chemicals) inhibiting adequate vitamin absorption and causing inflammation. Often if a plant look nutritious on paper, it's bio-availability is another story. A book about fiber being problematic: https://www.amazon.com/Fiber-Menace-Constipation-Hemorrhoids-Ulcerative/dp/0970679645 On the second attachment you can see the human digestive system is much closer to that of a carnivores than a herbivores, therefore I have trouble believing humans do best on a plant based diet even though a lot of science out there seems to point in that direction. A lot of that science is biased, corrupt and shaky conclusions are drawn. Vegans are mostly compared to SAD eaters whom also just happen to eat meat (still not nearly enough due to it being falsely demonized), still even most of a SAD diet comes from difficult to digest plants (esp grains). Then a healthy user bias can be considered as well as not concrete enough research (epidemiology). Over the coming years more hard science will be done on Paleo, Keto, Carnivore and then there will be a more fair comparison of the health benefits of eating fully plant based. From my understanding, animal products are crucial in the human diet if one wants optimal health (also worth mentioning is that a human's natural state, like every other mammal on earth, is ketogenic...) Some will be able to seemingly tolerate a vegan diet but I feel this largely comes down to genetics and the long term aftermath is not yet fully known. Even for them I would guess they would do better with meat than without. Certain vitamins are only attainable from animal products and others are less in plants due to bioavailabilty/required conversions and imo supplements aren't totally effective. Lots of vegans and vegetarians still have deficiencies. Just so you can see it is not as easy as "the majority of science points there so therefore it is true!" (to paraphrase) you can check out this community of scientists in Hungary who have been using a Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet (strict carnivore) on thousands of cases and having great results reversing all sorts of serious diseases. The doctors also eat the diet themselves so I've heard. Even not on full blown carnivore, you can still find new science on the side supporting meat, times change! I feel a bigger picture understanding is the most important thing however and how I see it is that humans would have evolved eating lots of fatty meat during ice ages and our guts haven't adapted to eating such large quantities of plants since, 12,000 years of agriculture is not much time on the evolutionary scale. Our brains got much larger from energy dense meat in abundance and our digestive tracts (probably originally better for plants) were able to simplify. Some seem to do okay, even seem to thrive as a vegan. I feel this is mostly in the short term though with some exceptions, I have heard the body uses up it's reserves. I don't see it as optimal nutrition. https://www.paleomedicina.com/en

Haha yep he says some pretty outrageous stuff which I also don't instantly subscribe to! I think his point about the it is okay to murder and eat people thing is that morals are a human construct, still a pretty stupid way to reply though. I wouldn't imagine he actually practices that in real life...and then go say it on the internet. I'm not totally defending him for such crazy claims but at the same time I don't think it's wise to dismiss everything just by not agreeing with certain points of view. Most of his nutrition information I have found to be rather accurate and in-depth when comparing it to other sources I have seen along with my direct experience and more than a decade worth of anecdotal strict carnivorous eating accounts from thousands on a facebook group I'm apart of (still on nutrition don't agree 100% with Sv3rige). If nothing else is taken from him then at least he has done a service by interviewing ex vegans who had their health decline on the diet and allowed them to have a good platform to tell their story to potentially help others. For me personally, this video was the biggest game changer to seeing the importance of meat so will leave it here if anyone is interested. Goes into depth about how our digestive systems have adapted very well to digesting meat and I can vouch for this myself it being the only thing I can easily eat.

Also here is an excellent resource from a recent Joe Rogan podcast where Paleo advocate Chris Kresser debated vegan cardiologist Dr. Joel Kahn. This has recent RCT studies showing that meat (cholesterol/saturated fat) is not bad for us like we once assumed. The article brings up facts about vegan and vegetarian deficiencies and sheds light on why a lot of the info we have about nutrition today could be off due to us still using outdated epidemiology studies which are not very reliable. It busts a lot of myths about meat and puts emphasis on it's importance for health for us: https://chriskresser.com/why-eating-meat-is-good-for-you/?utm_source=rogandebate&utm_medium=shortlink&utm_term=rogandebate&utm_content=&utm_campaign=rogandebate_rogan

Also I am not looking for a fight or anything here. This is a playlist with lots of people who quit Veganism and are coming out about it. Most will automatically write them off saying 'they didn't do it right' but there are many who claim they tried various approaches and most for years (even in some of the titles you will see it said). I am just going to leave the playlist here so if anyone genuinely wants to check them out they can, because most people don't seem to hear about this side to it.

I wrote a reply to why I don't think vegan is right for everyone on this other thread. Towards the end...

Yep for sure she sounds very aggressive which probably could be offputting for some but I think it's especially about making an impact and grabbing attention (she is an ex vegan that got sick so deals with a lot of hate, not justifying it to be effective but sure that's the reason for such a tone). As you said, it is refreshing to hear some alternative information on Veganism because it seems to be a given these days that it's a healthy diet which from the info I've seen is false. Plants have antinutrients because they want to survive in nature as well and some people assume you can cook these things completely out but it seems not entirely true (also going to measures to try depletes nutrients), I see many people getting sick from eating too many plants and then feel better by dropping them and eating carnivore (or even keto, or paleo, because grains...which are so high on the food pyramid...are just about the worst), some (if not all) people are sensitive to their toxins. Certain defense mechanisms which not only inhibit vitamin absorption (so it seems like you are eating more nutrition than you are) but also permeate the intestinal lining. From my understanding the majority of humans need eat animals to thrive in health. Something like cholesterol and saturated animal fat is super important in our diet. It has been falsely (and corruptly) demonized against in the past and you can't get optimal amounts by eating plants only. I hope you realise that the whole meat=cancer, heart risk thing has been debunked? Check out the largest epidemiological study ever done (recent 2018) which says eating red meat and cheese cuts early death factor by a 1/4! Of course, epidemiological studies are pretty shit (with many variables) and got meat falsely demonized in the first place (it's actually the grains, industrial vegetable oils, sugar, trans fats and sweeteners making us very sick) but it's good to start burning through the old mislead lies. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/eat/new-study-says-eating-meat-and-cheese-is-good-for-you/news-story/ab57e0b5fa5209dfcdfd5eb5b90113be Maybe in the short term it seems going vegan is the best soultion coz you feel amazing or whatever (not everyone) but I have seen that that is because your body is cannabalizing your own stored nutrients from bones and organs (and you feel good in comparison to previous diet)...so in a sense it is starvation (just like fasting etc). Also apparently your body releases ketones during this process which gives a euphoric feeling. In the long run though I have heard of many vegans quitting from feeling shit and then others who stay with it who look rather sick and then there are some who will seem to thrive which people are quick to generalize over. I have seen that ALL animals in nature are actually ketogenic. Even a herbivore which seems to eat so many plants (carbs) on the surface actually has a huge amount of bacteria in it's stomach and colon which humans don't have that ferments the cellulose into short fatty chain acids and uses the FAT as primary source of fuel. Humans have been eating meat for millions of years it seems (especially during ice ages, the last one only ended 12,000 years ago) and this has allowed our digestive systems to shrink and our brain to grow larger because of energy dense meat. Compare a human to a gorilla, it has a way larger cecum (appendix, or hub for bacteria to break down plants) and a way larger colon where bacteria live that does the digesting for it (and not to mention a small brain). It then burns FAT, NOT GLUCOSE. Humans are the only mammal that burns glucose and it is toxic in high amounts. It's is nonessental in the human diet because we can make the small amount needed in our organs. Some people call 'ketogenic' starvation but it's actually the other way around. The body burns fuel in this order ALCOHOL>GLUCOSE>FAT so going by that logic then actually alcohol is the preferred human fuel lol? No, maybe it is rather talking about getting the MOST toxic compound out of the body as quick as possible... Here you can see in a ruminant that it is still eating HIGH FAT and no carb! Why aren't (most) humans eating like this? It's bacteria converts all the plants to fat, human digestive systems don't do this! Also a baby drinking human breast milk (or RAW animal milk) is actually in ketosis itself because the milk is high in saturated fat and the body utilizes it that way. Then we force an unnatural diet of nonessential carbs on it. A fascinating presentation crucial to watch: Also, this guy reckon Veganism is a conspiracy in that they are eventually going to make meat so expensive that only the rich ones can afford it and by the time people realize veganism is not good in the long run (no culture in history has done it) it will be too late to turn back. Whether you think he's crazy or not, you can see many accounts (even on his youtube channel but also on a ZC group I am on and elsewhere) of vegans getting very sick and now speaking out about it and some of them tried everything they could to make it work. So regardless of what conclusion you want to draw, it won't be healthy for everyone we can say that! I know it would make me sick due to my crook gut where I can't tolerate anything but fresh beef!

This chick has an interesting channel and makes some challenging points with this video about eating vegan:

It is true that my activity on this thread seems to be as if I am trying to get a grasp on the ethics/sustainability of the way I have chosen to eat. First and foremostly I eat a carnivorous diet for health reasons. Maybe you jump to the conclusion that I am simply deluded but when it comes down to it the only thing I can digest without challenging pain is fresh beef (a coincidence?). Even if I venture off beef on occasion and try other meats such as pork or chicken then I react to it...This is due to having a bacterial overgrowth. The theory behind going all meat is now I can allow my body to heal (it is the most nutritious and bioavailable diet one can eat) and also for the bacteria to die off (because no longer feeding them any sugars). The bacterial overgrowth makes me very sensitive to 'salicylates' and 'histamines' (chemicals occurring in different amounts in plants). Plants want to survive as well. Most meat is very low histamines and no salicylates. There are many people on my group who have had similar stories as me. I have been experimenting with other diets (paleo, ketogenic) for years and have found that zero carb/all meat gives me the most relief. After exploring this perspective of health more I have come to an understanding that plants are problematic for some, I have also come to the understanding that humans don't require any plants at all to have thriving health. Many on my facebook group have healed their guts and had no desire to go back to eating plants due to their stellar (long term) health or otherwise they have attempted to and noticed they have severe reactions due to abstaining from the toxins (and fiber which can be very problematic, 'Fiber Menace' book) for so long. I'm not sure but I feel humans are probably sensitive to plants in general (because we don't have the required bacteria in our digestive systems to break down the cellulose anymore, I have seen research saying that humans are the only mammals on the planet burning glucose as fuel and even herbivores that appear to eat a lot of carbs on the surface actually run on a high fat diet because their bacteria converts the cellulose in to fatty acids for fuel). Then I think some plant eaters are more or less fine and maybe can even thrive due to genetics but it's definitely not everyone (who knows how they would do eating all meat though? but I hear of nothing but success stories). If I would heal my gut completely by eating meat and then potentially try adding back some plants again then that could be an option but I don't necessarily see a reason to if there is more than meets the eye to the ethics/sustainability issue anyway (which it definitely seems that there is another perspective there which I am very interested to keep researching). I don't find it a problem to kill an animal for food, I don't find that to be unethical at all...I see that as a mature view of nature. I also feel if someone is genuinely sick from plants then forcing them to eat a diet which makes them considerably suffer would be unethical in it's own right so that already puts a dint in the world going vegan. I do find the conditions that animals are kept in to be unethical for the most part. Factory farming standards for chickens and pigs is appalling I'm sure but at least for cattle I feel there is a lot of misinformation out there and for the most part feel the cow has a decent life grazing outdoors. Since finding this WOE for HEALTH reasons firstly I am now starting to dig a little deeper and starting to uncover a whole other side to what we think is sustainable or not. Sure, if you think the slaughtering of animals at all is unethical then you are never going to find a solution to sustainabilty. You may think that agriculture and crops is the way froward and even if that did cut down on animal deaths for the time being (?), where is that going long term with all the resources we are burning through? I am learning that perhaps grazing animals would be a better solution because that is going to repair the soil. The ruminants can then turn cellulose (which some humans can't digest easily) into something that we can (meat) along the way. That would have to involve eating animals, but regardless you are already doing that when eating as a vegan but at least this way true sustainability is more deeply considered. So how do you decide what is more ethical, more animal suffering in the short term or longer term (once all the soil/life is gone)? and even that there would be more suffering in the short term if we would eat more meat is questionable because if we could not plant as many grains (and rather use the land for grazing animals and then slaughter them for food) then the harsh conditions of factory farming could ease up (this is the potential alternative perspective I am trying to get through to you here because frankly you don't know for sure that it's not true that factory farming only exists because of plant agriculture in the first place). Animals will still need to die (because we will be eating them) but they will at least have a better quality of life...and maybe we could eat both meat and plants, all I'm saying is it's not entirely a given that Veganism is the best future for the world. But yes, I am still learning and contemplating about the ethical/sustainability issue of this WOE I am doing and potentially such a thread was a bit premature however I am learning as I go. I have great confidence that the 20,000+ group on facebook that has been helping me with my info could go back and forth with you guys all day long but they advised it's probably not the best way of going about it and rather to educate myself more so I can defend my perspective if needed and also to just embody great health to spread awareness. When it comes down to it, it is your religion vs mine (but at least all the info has been dished out so readers of this thread can see both sides). Some of the people in my group are long term carnivores (even people first hand in the farming industry, not to mention doctors, nutritionists) who have dug very deep and seen a perspective which you have potentially completely missed due to being locked into your ideology. Even the author of 'The Vegetarian Myth' was a vegan for 20 years and she tried her best to hang on to her ideology as she watched her body break down, she said she should had abandoned veganism way earlier than she did when the signs were so clear. This would had led her down a path which otherwise would be hidden knowledge to her. I wonder if you would ever find yourself in a place of very ill health if you would still stand your ground and not potentially ask yourself what's going on? If you want to reply to this then by all means do but I hope to leave this thread at this now.

'How to fight desertification and reverse climate change' https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change

'A Meat-Eating Yogi: Is a Veggie Diet the Only Option for a Spiritual Person?' https://www.elephantjournal.com/2015/05/a-meat-eating-yogi-is-a-veggie-diet-the-only-option-for-a-spiritual-person/

Not written by me. "There’s this assumption that so-called grain-fed animals eat grain all their lives and that’s simply not true. All US cattle are grass fed until weeks before slaughter. It would be too expensive and counterproductive for ranchers to feed grain exclusively."

'If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer' https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize

Cited from the article above: "Death happens in plant agriculture, let me count the ways… First, you need to make a field. Crop fields aren’t “natural”. When you fly over the United States and look down at all of the squares and circles down there, that’s not “nature,” that’s man. Lots of things had to die to make way for that perfect square of only one crop to be there. Step two, once all trees are cut down and life is removed, it’s time to plow up the soil. This releases carbon and further kills lots of life living close to the surface. Small critters that had their dens underground are decapitated and chopped up. Next, time to plant and don’t forget, you need to fertilize. How should the fertilizing be done? There are chemical methods, but I’m sure my blogger friend only eats organic vegetables 100% of the time, right? Ok. How do organic farmers feed their soil? On our farm, we use compost (a mix of dead animals and plants) and other organic tools like blood meal, bone meal, and fish emulsion. There are “veganic” options that use algae, but the production of this has it’s own issues. Life cycle studies of the production of algae for fertilizer shows that they’re not as “green” as many assume, requiring energy and greenhouse gasses and producing waste. Plus, you then have to transport this to a farm with… algae biofuels? Another problem that happens when we strip away an ecosystem to plant grains and vegetables is that we’re removing the natural cover that animals like field mice have, making it much easier for a hawk to swoop down and pluck it’s lunch. Exposing that mouse was the result of human interventions. If we know a death will happen as a result of our actions, but we didn’t directly intend for that death to occur, is the death still our fault? Are fish, insects and birds less significant life forms than mammals? Are animals that look closest to humans more important? Is it only important not to kill animals that are considered sentient? Is sentience the only value a being can have? Does death harm some beings more than others? We need to take responsibility for both intended deaths and unintended deaths due to our impact on the land. A new paper looking at the number of animal deaths caused by plant agriculture looked at deaths per hectare per year from various different angles. Depending on what you consider “valuable life” and how the animals were counted, deaths could either range from 35-250 mouse deaths per acre to 7.3 billion animals killed every year from plant agriculture if you count birds killed by pesticides, fish deaths from fertilizer runoff, plus reptiles and amphibians poisonings from eating toxic insects. Whether or not you agree with their math is not the issue. I think the issue is, if death happened for your food, then are you morally better than me because you didn’t drink milk or eat a steak? "

Oh this one's perfect for this discussion! https://sustainabledish.com/am-i-less-woke-because-i-eat-meat/

I didn't write this but it's a good point. "We aren't feeding the grains to cattle because of the cattle. We are feeding the grains to cattle because grains are highly subsidized and we have to do something with them. The American prairies - now used for grains - use to be home to a population of buffalo that was larger the number of cattle currently being raised for food. It's far more complex than any vegan wants to admit, and involves factors like public policy and land use - not just "I want meat so I have to grow grains". Here's an article you might find useful: 'The surprisingly complicated math of how many wild animals are killed in agriculture' http://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/.../how-many-animals.../ "

I'm sorry mate but this article and study says otherwise... https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel-animal-feed

Yep because from what I've experienced, I need to eat animals as food or else I get sick. Sometimes that's how nature works. If you are someone who doesn't seem to have to do that then suit yourself but at least be honest that animals are still dying in order for you to be alive right now and maybe you feel it is a lesser amount than if you were eating meat but the point being made here is maybe it's not as less as you think. She makes a point that 6 corporations own the entire world's food supply and farmers are working harder than ever and the crops they harvest gets sold for such a little price (because there is too much of a surplus of grains because of too much agriculture). The price they sell their crops for is even less than the production cost. Then the federal government subsidizes some of the gap so the farmers don't go out of business (which in a way just goes to the big corporations). The farmers then try to produce even extra grains so they can profit which creates even more of a surplus which creates a viscious cycle. So if you eat grains then you are eating destroyed ecosystems (and supporting generations of animal suffering) because the whole land gets nuked clean and then you are also supporting factory farming because she claims that factory farming only exists because of such a surplus of grains. Her stance is very against factory farming (she was a vegan for 20 years mainly for animal rights). Not to mention all your crops use synthetic non renewable fertilizer which is killing the ground so you can't isolate ethics from environment. How ethical do you think that is, every species on the planet dying and suffering as the apocalypse approaches? Just a matter of time till fossil fuels run out, can't deny that.

Besides, the whole point of this thread was to show that there is another perspective claiming that Veganism is potentially NOT the best option even for ethics. If you would take the 40 minutes to listen to the podcast I posted (not even needing to read the book) then you can see that it's not as clear cut as you may think. She proposes rotating grazing animals as being the best solution for health, ethics and sustainability.

An animal should eat what makes it healthiest. That is survival.

btw for anyone wanting to read some testimonies of health transformation through strict carnivorous eating and open your eyes up then check this site out: http://meatheals.com/