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I agree. Of course most parents would value their child's life above their own. I did not dispute that. You said Another poster said You responded suggesting that as evidence that sex is more important to humans than their own survival. I explained that a human's desire for sexual reproduction cannot and never does precede a human's desire for immediate survival. Even though a person values their child's life more than their own, it still does not mean they value sex more than survival. It means they value their child's life more than their own life. Their child's life is not sex. Those are two different things. And sex, at no point in life, ever gets placed higher in the pecking order of importance to a human. There are certain things that can supplant your own immediate survival as your number one human "need, desire, motivation, etc) in life, such as a child's life, a spouse's life, another person's life, religion, patriotism, camaraderie, etc. Neither sex nor the need to procreate is powerful enough to rank higher than a human's desire for immediate survival. That is the only point I am trying to make. I also explained how you can prove it to yourself. Want another example? A couple who is trying to have a baby decides to have sex in a bathtub with the girl riding the guy and the guy on his back mostly underwater. If she pushes his head down and holds his head under the water while her head is comfortably out of the water, and she keeps banging him while doing so, will he just lay there and let her drown him or will he buck her off him and fight for his life?

From the time of birth, (short-term) survival is a human's number 1 driving factor in life. At no point during a typical, mentally healthy person's life does sex ever get prioritized over their immediate survival. Never. At some point in life, this human may choose to prioritize something higher than his or her own immediate survival, for example, the life of a child, spouse, other person, comrade, religion, etc. But that just changes the order of their ranking of importance to being: 1) This other person's survival (or the religious cause, etc.) 2) Their own immediate survival 3) Every other need, want, desire, etc. that a human could have, which includes sexual intercourse and reproduction. If you want proof of this yourself, let someone hold you underwater long enough. You will fight with every ounce of your life to survive. You can repeat the same experiment on human after human and they will react the same way. Better experiment yet - take a happily married couple who are currently engaged in the act of sexual intercourse because they are trying to impregnate the female. Submerge them in a pool full of water while they are going at it. See if they keep banging away at it or see if they stop having sex and try to get to the surface for air. This will also show you which desire ranks the highest on the human priority scale. Sex and sexual reproduction will never be a higher priority than immediate survival.

Thanks for your viewpoint. If you re-read what I posted, I don't think I ever mentioned or alluded to Jews or Donald Trump. I must really be a terrible communicator if that is what you got from this. I don't wish to attempt to logically debate your emotions. You are free to believe as you wish.

Are we talking about you snapping out on hot chicks because they are hot? Or are we talking about the KKK (lol) or something else?

I don't know where you live, just hope it's not near me. As a human living here on Earth, you have the freedom to do whatever you wish. Just remember that if you trigger the wrong person, they themselves, or a group of them, will attempt to beat you into submission, one way or another, until you conform with the generally accepted rules of your society. That is simply how human civilization works. If your behavior of lashing out at hot chicks with uncontrolled emotional outrage over petty life events is generally accepted as being normal in whatever society you live in, knock yourself out, bro. Just don't be surprised when you discover you lost all your friends and the world around you seems to be shitting on you every chance it gets. Misery begets more misery.

Wow! That was an entertaining read. Thanks for linking that!

Thanks, I briefly checked them out with Google Gemini. I will study them deeper later. You have to learn basic math before you can learn algebra. You have to learn algebra before geometry and trigonometry. You have to learn those before calculus. Yes. That is because you must fully understand the laws of the previous one before you can understand the laws of the next one. Learning math that way is a linear time process. I am suggesting that is nothing like Spiral Dynamics at all. Yet, that is how SD is explained, which is why I call it false. Believing that is how people or societies evolve is as wrong as believing the Pythagorean Theorem is anything other than A squared plus B squared equals C squared. Spiral Dynamics is a formula that does not accurately describe how the world works. In fact, it teaches untruths. So anyone buying into it is making decisions about how life works based on fundamental untruths. A person does not need to learn any other stages before deciding they value the well-being of the entire globe on an equal level as their own well-being (Turquoise or whatever). They simply need to be taught that belief when they are young. You could have a teenager, in fact you do have many teenagers, believing such things as they are taught that they should believe that by their parents. They have not experienced nor learned any other stages at all as their parents have satisfied every fundamental human need in their life up to that point. If SD were true, the kids would have to progress from one to the next. But they don't. They can start at Green, Yellow, Turquoise or Orange, Red, Blue, or whatever. It depends on the circumstances they are brought up under and who is teaching them what. This is why I say it is a human choice and nothing more. It is a choice, a belief, that anyone can choose at any time in their life and doesn't require evolving through any other stages to get there. I fail to see how any of these stages is evolutionary or progressive when any "stage" can be adopted by any person (adolescent or older) based on their experiences in life and whoever molded their beliefs when they were young. The things that these humans do share in common are those fundamental human needs that Maslow and others explained decades ago. Those human needs are what I would call fundamentally true. We all experience them. And as humans, beyond our basic survival needs, because of our varying personalities and life experiences, we get to prioritize our other needs, desires, goals, etc. however we are taught to or however we decide to on our own. That is how humans tick. That is how Societies tick based on the culmination of decisions that humans are making within that community. This is why Native Americans chose to live like nature-loving communists. This is why the Amish choose to live like religious conservatives, highly dependent and benevolent with each other. These same fundamentals apply to every community of people and every country across the globe. They are direct results of decisions made as those people all attempted to survive and improve their lives. That is the fundamental truth as far as I can tell. These so-called stages of SD are false. The formula suggesting Red precedes Blue, which precedes Orange, and so on, is a complete and utter lie. It seems ridiculously easy to disprove it. As a theory of psychosocial evolution for individuals, organizations, or cultures, Spiral Dynamics fails miserably. I would assume any truth seeker who thinks deeply about whether it is even remotely accurate would be appalled by it and reject it entirely as false dogma. But that is just my opinion. Perhaps I am wrong.

Excellent. I will look into the sources you mentioned. Thank you.

This would make a lot of sense if they didn't call them stages and instead categorized them as being on-par with one another. For example, in Myers-Briggs, no personality is superior or inferior to the others. They are just categories of personalities. That would represent more intellectual honesty.

The lower you go the "simpler" the mind is. I fundamentally disagree. I posit that they are not different and not simpler in any way. They have merely made different choices, chosen different traditions, adopted different beliefs, etc., that they have chosen as all humans do and always have throughout history, in an effort to survive and better their lives. Saying that their ideas are "simpler" or "less developed" is inaccurate because I imagine you or I may have chosen the very same things they have chosen if we were born in their shoes, raised by their parents in their communities, had their friends, had the same mentors, etc. Would we be identical to them, no? Would our lives rhyme and probably look very similar? Very likely.

Yes, Humans are adaptation machines. We are born and immediately begin adapting to our world in order to survive and thrive. Our senses provide data input. Our brains organize that sensory input and adapt to it. We learn how to crawl, then walk, then talk. We learn academic skills and social skills. Our beliefs become programmed into us by our parents, other family members, teachers, mentors, clergy, friends, etc. We keep acquiring knowledge and hopefully convert that knowledge into wisdom. It is in our nature to do so, regardless of where in time you point to, or what civilization you point to. Humans adapt just as every living organism tries to do on Earth. And yes, you could classify different stages of life as being stages that make a lot of sense. Such as childhood, adolescence, college years, 20's, 30's, 40's or whatever. I find those useful. I just don't think the stages outlined in Spiral Dynamics are useful because I don't see them as being part of any timeline in life. They are merely priorities, decisions, choices, etc. that any adult human could make for a variety of reasons at any point in their life. Consider how the Amish people live here in the US or how certain native American tribes lived before colonists arrived from Europe. No civilizations are more or less evolved from humanity's standpoint. From a technological standpoint, yes. From a human standpoint, no. They simply choose different priorities and teach those priorities to the children so that the children grow up adopting the same beliefs, paradigms, and priorities. There are changes for sure. But those changes are not accurately represented in the colored stages of Spiral Dynamics and certainly don't happen in a predictable order of going from one to the next , as is implied.

Obviously people find it useful and have bought into its accuracy. It wouldn't be used if they didn't. I am suggesting it is based on untruths. I just find it funny that some PhDs arrived at this model when their predecessors had already provided much better explanations for how humans operate and in doing so, indirectly explained how societies end up adopting whatever beliefs, traditions, goals, politics, etc. that they do. This theory smells of lousy academics to me. This is what made me wonder if anyone here has actually questioned it thoughtfully.

In order for you to have a stage you have to first buy into the idea that there are stages and that this is an accurate model. I don't. I think every human is on the same stage- there is only one. We are all driven by the same fundamental forces of nature. We turn out different and make difference choices and develop different beliefs for many various reasons. But you don't go from one stage to another as is suggested by the Spiral Dynamics model. Not in my opinion anyway. Perhaps I am wrong.

Wow, you put great effort into this. Thank you. Saying that there are "higher" stages by itself suggests they are not equal and that one is superior to the other. Saying that a higher stage includes and transcends the previous stage suggests they are not equal and that higher stages are superior. Using the word "previous" to describe another stage also suggests that the stages do in fact have a hierarchy with Turquoise being the "most evolved" stage I believe. There is nothing that comes "after" Turquoise, is there? Also, if you just look at how it is used here on this forum, every single time I see it being used here, it is obviously implied that higher stages are "superior" to the others. Just look through a few threads on here. Everyone using it is making it look like all lower stages are "inferior" to the one above it.

Yes. We are thinking along similar lines. It is a tactic that could be used to intentionally manipulate people into believing something that simply isn't true. I don't know if that is what it really is or not. But it might be. I don't see a single way that the authors of Spiral Dynamics have improved on what earlier teachers of "human theory" offered us decades beforehand. It looks more like a bastardization of fundamental truths intentionally shaped into something someone wants you to believe because they have an agenda to persuade you to buy into it as being true.

Is it? If you study theories of human motivation like Abraham Maslow's and Clayton Alderfer's they explain how all humans, regardless of where they are born and live on the globe, are driven to acquire certain "needs" such as physiological needs, love, belonging, self-esteem, etc. Many of those needs apply to every human, such as the need for food, water, shelter, safety, etc. Those needs are considered higher priority because you won't care about "getting married" very much if you are homeless and struggling to feed yourself. If you are easily satisfying those common needs that every human must satisfy, then you begin pondering what else you can do with your life. So you might set other goals for yourself such as getting an education, starting a career, exploring your spirituality, finding a mate, starting a family, acquiring material goods, traveling, etc. Each of us gets to decide that for ourselves. Our options and decisions are largely shaped by the circumstances we are born into, our upbringing and the things that our parents, family members, friends, and other mentors teach us when we are very young and maturing. If you also understand how the human brain works on a superficial level, and the personality differences between humans using something similar to a Myers-Briggs explanation, you can easily understand how one person can come to make certain choices in their life and prioritize different goals in life compared to others. I don't see any choice of goals as being "more evolved" than others. Humans are just doing what humans do. We are just doing what other humans do. The things that separate us are the circumstances of our youth, plus all of the ideas we get exposed to throughout life, which then affect the decisions each of us makes moment to moment. It also affects the major decisions we make in life, like what career should I pursue, should I go to college, should I marry this person, etc. We form communities by choosing to live among others that share our same values, or perhaps we just adjust our values to match those we live among so that we fit in with them. The reason for doing so would go back to human motivational needs that Abraham Maslow explained many decades ago. Sometimes communities are forced upon us by conquest. Think of the spread of Christianity at the tip of the sword. All of this is rooted in human nature. You and I are driven by the same forces that those Christian Knights were driven by at the human level. We are no more or less evolved than they were. They were exposed to different circumstances in life, experiences in life, and shaped by different beliefs when they were young. They adapted as best they could to the options available to them in their era of existence just as you and I do today. We are the same. Communities, countries, political systems, etc, are shaped by their forefathers and also by other civilizations that have conquered them. There is no "higher evolved" versions of any of them on the human level. There are technological evolutions that have drastically changed civilizations. Yet the fundamental human experience of being human and being driven by the same human needs has been in place for as far back in humanity as we can track it.

Thanks for the heads up! I am a truth seeker, as many on this forum have stated they are. I seek truths about how the world works and how life works, so I can adapt and adjust accordingly to live a fulfilling, meaningful, and happy life. The more I research Spiral Dynamics, the more flaws I find with it. It seems glaringly inaccurate and biased to me. So I find it very surprising that so many people who are "seeking truth" have bought into it as being anything remotely close to accurate. I am genuinely curious how so many people have bought into it as being "true". Have they honestly questioned it at all or pondered it to any great extent? I am trying to approach it objectively.

This advice is gold, and I can attest to it personally. I read a book about Kaizen somewhere around 20 years ago. I immediately began using that technique to make small positive habitual changes in my life. It has worked wonders for me. It is truly amazing how well it works if you actually do it. And you can apply it to any area of your life, from personal hygiene to finances, career, investments, spiritual development, health, fitness, etc. It is a terrific way to build positive momentum.

I agree completely. Goggins is just another human doing what humans do: seeking fulfillment in whatever way they think they can. People hate the guy mostly because he has radically different priorities in life that they can't relate to for whatever reason. Goggins appears to have prioritized mental toughness as his top goal in life, at least for the time being, and uses physical discipline as a way to build it and maintain it. He knows what he wants, has goals, and is working harder than almost anyone else is willing to in order to achieve them. I find that inspiring, even though improving my mental toughness is not a high-priority goal for me. I think he inspires many people to work harder to achieve worthy goals. And for that, he is largely benefiting mankind.

Thank you for the explanation. It makes more sense now. I don't resonate with the whole spiral dynamics model of human values or societies. I find it inferior because I think the assertion that Green, Yellow, or Turquoise are any more evolved in any way than Red, Blue, or Orange is just wrong. I see them as choices based on a person's circumstances and upbringing, but having zero to do with being more developed or less developed. I also realize that is probably a very unpopular view on this forum. Just saying what I honestly believe from studying humans my entire life. If you buy into the spiral dynamics explanation, then yes, I could see why you think these other people around you are "less developed". I just don't see them that way. I merely see them as people who have made different choices because of how human beings are designed. Thank you for asking about my feelings and thoughts about my life as we enter the new year. Honestly, I feel a deeper sense of satisfaction and gratitude in my life than I ever have. I have made vast progress on many goals that most of you would label as being stage "Orange" goals. But I chose, and continue to choose, similar ones after deep contemplation over many decades. I am a spiritual person, but it is not at the top of my Pyramid. What the Greeks call "Eudaimonia" is. So I seek more of it from many different sources. And the more of it I bring into my life through these so-called stage "Orange" pursuits, the happier and more satisfying my life has become. So, I intend to stay on this track. One thing I would like to make further progress on is practicing radical acceptance of those things in life that are upsetting, yet outside of my control.

I'd love to understand what you mean here. Are you just saying you don't meet many people that you feel you really connect with deeply? I am exceptionally empathetic as you state you are. And I rarely find someone I connect with fully. But I don't attribute any of it to being conscious vs unconscious. I am wondering what you even mean by that. Can you please explain it to someone who doesn't understand it?

How can I train myself to perform positive habits on autopilot without having to use willpower or conscious effort? What are the few most important things I should be focusing on right now to improve my life the most? How can I systematize more of my business to operate like a well-oiled machine? How can I modify my business to harness more leverage, scalability, or the power of compounding to create more wealth? What virtues do I really believe in and want to be foundational in my life? What investments can I park my money in that will reliably compound as fast as possible with acceptable risk and with as little involvement from me over time? How can I gain more wisdom and act on it? Who are the best mentors for me to learn from? What should be my top priorities in life to maximize the amount of satisfaction I get from it? What would my father have chosen to do in this situation? What would my uncle have chosen here? What would _________ do if they were in my shoes? How can I train myself to accept the fact that people I love will make different decisions than me even when I think their decision is obviously foolish? What can I do to help improve the lives of the people I care about the most? How can I increase the amount of fulfillment and happiness my wife feels in our marriage and in her life? How can I help my closest friends and family members live happier, more fulfilling lives? What actions can I take to improve my country and the lives of my fellow countrymen? What wisdom can I pass on to those younger people who seek it that will help them help themselves the most? The reason I ask these questions, and many others, is because I believe that finding the wisest answers to them will result in me achieving the maximum amount of satisfaction I can enjoy during this lifetime.

Have you ever thought about something and then made a decision about it? If you didn't have the ability to choose your response, then why would humans ever have been granted the ability to think about how they should respond or how they should have responded? Your decisions are rooted in both logical reasoning, using your prefrontal cortex, as well as emotions (using your amygdala). These two sources steer you one way or another when making decisions, with emotions typically overpowering logical reasoning. Your decisions are the single most powerful factor determining your circumstances in life. The better your decisions are, the less pain you feel, the more satisfaction and contentment you feel. If you choose to believe you have zero control over your choices, circumstances, and outcomes, your choices will most likely suck donkey balls. If you choose to believe you do have control over your choices, circumstances, and outcomes, your choices will likely be far superior. There are many things that drastically impact and affect your life that are outside of your control, including your parents and family who shaped many of your early beliefs in life, and the circumstances you were born into. There will be many terrible and unfortunate things that happen in your life that are outside of your control such as diseases based on your genetics, tragic accidents, the deaths of loved ones, lethal storms, etc. But the one thing that remains within your control is your choices (if you so choose to exercise control over them). So, choose wisely if you hope to reach the top of Maslow's Pyramid. There is no guarantee you will get there even if you try, but you can try to steer it that way. Or you can just throw your hands up and let random happenstance decide whether you wake up blissful and content one morning or live like a crack head on the streets of San Francisco.

I wish I knew you in person so I could follow you around in life with a video camera. Your intensity must be absolutely hilarious to your closest friends. I was drinking coffee when I read your "Don't nudge me, pretty BITCH!!" - almost spit it out. That is some funny shit! It is like coming across one of those little lap dogs that is going to try to bite your ankle no matter how nice you are too it. You reach out to pet it. It tries to take your finger. You give it a little kick. It comes at you like baby Cujo! Or it's like that Monte Python Spamalot skit where the knight has his arms and leggs chopped off and says "I'll bite your ankles!" When I was younger there were a few times when I went off the rails like this around my closest buddies. They would always laugh their assess off, mock me for being crazy, and then get me to snap back to reality. Thank god for those buddies.

I went from an average student to an A student in college using one primary technique. Each class lecture was scheduled to cover a certain topic. I would get out my textbook and read whatever chapter or section of the book that contained the information the lecture was supposed to cover in the morning prior to attending the lecture. For example, during an electronics course where the professor was going to be explaining how a P-N junction works in a transistor or diode, I would read that section of my textbook in the morning (a couple hours) before attending that lecture. I would get most of my understanding just by reading the textbook. Then when the professor explained the same material, nearly everything the professor was explaining made perfect sense. Not only that, it also filled in the gaps in my understanding that was inadequate just from reading the book. I actually learned the material to a much greater depth and the knowledge stuck. The coursework became very easy for me at that point. I went from being an average student at best to the very top of my class. That opened up other doors for me that led me to where I am today. If you try it, I bet it will help you immensely just as it did for me.