Cred

Good that you ask. Yes ADHD is part of ND. However, in my post I'm talking mainly about Gifted people who are either autistic, highly sensitive or a mix

Can you please elaborate what you mean?

To me this sounds like NT self-help propaganda. I know that I brought this word into the discussion but I personally don't believe in it, since I'm a moral relativist and also, it might very well be one of those kryptonite things again. Yes we definitely need to deepen the discussion around the (Peter Pan person). I think there is a lot of nuance to be gained when we do this. In very short, my take is, that the "degenerate gamer" types engage in escapism because of their self-hatred, stemming from the fact they can't live up to NT-ideals. I believe that, paradoxically, enabling them can lead to them getting on track to finding their authentic place separate from NT world. I think genetically, some people are more prone to cope with self loathing while others tend to cope with narcissism. I think it's a spectrum again. Maybe covert narcissists are narcissist with a pint more self loathing idk. This would be interesting to explore. If you happen to grow up in a very ND aware environment, it's possible that none of this is an issue for you (addressed at the reader). Also, quick reminder that NT-ND is a spectrum. Me and most of the ND people I know personally tend to engage in self loathing. Thanks for that! Also I think your penis is great too 😳

I've since edited the original message and adding more text, but I will remove the edits and just post them here to uphold chronology. Edit: I just saw that you started following this thread ten minutes before leaving the message. From your reply, I got the vibe, that you don't like my style of communication and are not interested in following this thread further. I think your reaction is kinda justified. Like I think your distinction between ADHD and CPTSD is interesting, but I want to get the most obvious high level stuff out of my system first. Also, I haven't even begun talking about my personal experience with ND people. I think it's funny that you compare my rhetoric with Incel language lol. Again, I don't have anything against working on a model and keep refining it, but we need the foundation first before we can build on top or carve something away. Edit 2: I think it's frustrating to me when people tell me "You need to be more detailed and explain how you came to these conclusions", because It's already time consuming enough getting all my insights down to words. So this would really help: If you see a specific point I make and you don't see how I came to that conclusion, then ask me about it.

First of all, I think it’s great that you defend Leo and give him the benefit of the doubt. I don’t want to fight with the dragon if it’s not necessary. That's totally fair. Yeah making promises is one of those kryptonite things for many NDs again. I think this is totally relatable. You are talking about him like some kind of dragon that comes around town from time to time spitting fire at people lol Maybe I’m too idealistic, but I don’t think it has to be this way. I believe that one of, if not THE root cause of this could be the unawareness of exactly in what way the society currently oppresses people with our specific traits. Is this really so far-fetched? I’m kinda done with this whole perfectionism thing. You can shove tricky and delicate up your ass (with love). I outright reject this whole “did I really execute everything perfectly did I not make any error is everyone happy am I good enough??????”. I believe this fundamentally comes from a place of self-hatred. My message to people is that they should accept themselves. If I would carefully adjust everything I do here like walking on eggshells, I would completely undermine this point. I don’t judge Leo or anyone here for their defensiveness (actually people are a lot less defensive recently which is nice to see). I suggest you people read my post about narcissistic coping and ND. I actually think it’s a great way of coping with ND oppression from society in order to be more functional. However, I’m pointing out these patterns so we can learn from them together.

@Basman I'm not here to bore you or myself with long technical definitions and endless distinctions. I'm simply not the guy for that job. I'm here to share my insights. You can deconstruct them and split hairs all you want. It does not change the deep truth about my claims. You should ask yourself why you focus so much on nitpicking instead of trying to listen.

The chances for an ND to fit into society as well as NTs is almost as unlikely to happen as this thought experiment. But you can get close. I think you could do it like Leo and convince enough or just some of the right people of the value of your work. This does not mean that NDs and NTs are equal in this society. I don't think they can ever be archived during capitalism tbh.

chill

@Human Mint Sorry, I did not mean to devalue your knowledge. Of course, all the insights that you ever had still hold value, also those about conformity. Knowledge about ND is so much more powerful in the hands of somebody who already has a lot of knowledge of spirituality, psychology, society etc. This is why it's so fulfilling to me to talk about it here. You are right, that I was using the ND label too broadly in the two posts above, thanks for pointing that out! I will edit it.

Edit: I am using the label ND too broadly here. What I mean more specifically is passion oriented people/ADHD/executive dysfunction. Thanks @Human Mint for pointing that out. Constistency is, like hard work, the cryptonite of NDs. This is because NDs function with motivation and it is really hard to influence that. One thought I had a lot in my life, maybe many people here can relate with is: "If I could just make myself like that thing as much as this thing my problems would be solved". But this is again one of those coping "tricks" that don't lead to sustainable results I found. Our brain is just way to erratic to be able to commit to one thing or make longterm plans. So my advice regarding consistency is the same as with hard work. Try to avoid it.

I'm not arguing against that. Navigating through life as an ND is hard, but it is much harder when you don't know that you are ND.

Notice that the NT vs ND distinction is an insight machine. It is a well without a bottom. You don't properly understand conformity and genius if you are not aware of the ND framework.

Edit: I am using the label ND too broadly here. What I mean more specifically is passion oriented people/ADHD/executive dysfunction. Thanks @Human Mint for pointing that out. You are correct that talking about "hard work" is crucial in an ND discussion. Thanks for reminding me. The sentence above is exactly wrong. The reason why you think this is because you still live too deep in NT Land. The concept "Hard work" mean completely different things for an ND and for an NT. Comparing the "hard work" ability of an NT person with those of an ND person is like comparing the boxing ability of Mike Tyson with those of some nerd with no arms. This nerd could be Albert fucking Einstein, and he would still have low self-esteem their whole lives if they were to compare their boxing abilities to Mike Tysons. Coping "tricks" like gamification and all this shit is like saying to Einstein: "You can beat Mike Tyson if you believe in yourself! You just have to use your forehead!". You are banging your head against a wall when you do this. Being productive for an NT person always takes them roughly the same amount of energy and willpower no matter what they do (I know this sounds completely unbelievable). This means they are literal Mike Tysons at doing boring shit. This is, again, also why they are usually not productive during leisure time (aka no hobbies). In addition, it's why they think that people have to work to be happy bc they wouldn't know what to do with all that time. Nothing I've done the last view days felt like hard work. No NT could ever communicate this much information without it feeling like hard work. This is one of the superpowers of NDs. When an ND is motivated to do something, it costs them discipline NOT to pursue that thing (I'm failing miserably at not doing this btw). The downside is that having to do boring shit feels excruciating. This is why you need to avoid doing boring shit like the literal plague, which you already do, but I'm enabling you and I am telling you not to feel bad about sucking at discipline. You need to question why "hard work" is so valued in society. No, it is like boxing. No one here gives a shit if someone is good at boxing so why is this not the same with hard work. To circle back to your point: If they had a butler who would feed them, do all their chores, do all the paperwork, etc. an ND would absolutely be able to create the most marvelous creations of genius and creativity you have ever seen without EVER working hard. But this is unrealistic, of course. You will have to be disciplined some of the time. JUST STOP COMPARING YOURSELF TO MIKE TYSON!

lol. Yes that’s correct. I’m more than willing to calibrate my points and my view on ND. (For example the paper @Carl-Richard posted about the autism-psychosis spectrum is absolutely phenomenal and is something I’ve not been considering till now. But it is strengthening my points rather than weakening them imo.) However, I will not back away one inch from my core point, which is that ND is a game changer for this community. If you saw a flat earther argue with an astrophysicist and the flat earther would hit 'em with the “you seem pretty close minded bruh”, would you say “wooow he’s right! Maybe I need to reconsider my position about the earth being round!”? FUCK NO. This is because the flat earther has just no idea what they are talking about, and you know it. I am betting my left nut that Leo will be “comically close minded” about god when he is on that atheist podcast. Why? Because atheists don’t know what the fuck they are talking about that’s why. It would be foolish of Leo or the physicist not to be close-minded in these situations.

Thanks for the openmindedness! Well I hope you are open enough to handle this truth pill: I googled giftedness and the AI spat out: “Giftedness is a neurodivergent, asynchronous development characterized by advanced cognitive abilities, high intensity, and a capacity for complex, rapid, and often unconventional thinking compared to peers of the same age. It is not merely high academic achievement, but a, holistic, brain-based difference in how individuals perceive, process, and experience the world emotionally and intellectually. Key Characteristics and Traits Gifted individuals often exhibit a combination of the following traits: * Advanced Cognition: Rapid learning, excellent memory, superior reasoning, and high curiosity. * Intensity and Sensitivity: Deep emotional intensity, heightened awareness, and, in some cases, existential anxiety. * Complexity: A tendency to make complex, abstract connections rather than linear, step-by-step reasoning. * Passion/Task Commitment: Long concentration spans, particularly in subjects of interest. * Asynchronous Development: The, mind often develops faster than, the body or emotions, creating unique challenges.“ Sounds familiar? Are you sure that none of this applies to you? How about Leo? Anyone else here perhaps? Do I need to know everyone personally to know that this community mainly consists of gifted people? No. This next part is relevant for @Natasha Tori Maru specifically, but I believe that it also applies to the majority of the core Actualized.org fan base: I googled highly sensitive person and the AI spat out: “A Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) is an individual with a personality trait known as Sensory Processing Sensitivity (SPS). Coined by psychologists Elaine and Arthur Aron in the mid-1990s, the trait describes approximately 15–30% of the population who process physical, social, and emotional stimuli more deeply than the average person. Core Characteristics (The "DOES" Model) Dr. Elaine Aron uses the acronym DOES to summarize the four fundamental pillars of high sensitivity: * D — Depth of Processing: HSPs tend to process information more thoroughly, reflecting deeply on experiences and noticing patterns others might miss. * O — Overstimulation: Because they take in so much detail, HSPs can easily become overwhelmed or exhausted by busy, loud, or chaotic environments. * E — Emotional Reactivity & Empathy: HSPs have stronger emotional responses to both positive and negative stimuli and often have a high capacity for empathy. * S — Sensing Subtleties: They are highly aware of small changes in their environment, such as a slight shift in someone's mood or a subtle scent.“ It is important to note, that if you are HSP, the odds that you are also gifted are way higher and vice versa. I hate to break the news to you @Natasha Tori Maru, but you’ve outed yourself as a gifted HSP the moment you talked about your gender questioning and all that CIA type people reading shit. (Which means that you are already doing what you are supposed to, like many people here, which is playing by your strengths, but learning about how you are different from the norm is huuuuge for self-acceptance) I want to emphasize, that it says that HSP is 15-30% of the population. That's not rare at all! A lot of y’all will have experienced going to a meditation seminar or something all exited and then noticing that about 70-85% of the people there are past retirement age. This is because the only people who seriously meditate are HSPs and people who have absolutely nothing else to do! lol This is how I met @relativity, who introduced me to Actualized.org. He was also the one who suggested I could be HSP too like him. This was not a coincidence. We were all supposed to find each other from the moment we were born. (Sorry to get all woo woo on ya) I get all of you when you say “but I’m a unique snowflake!”. Of course y’all are different, also from each other. My important point is, that unless you have a microscope, you will not be able to admire all the details and peculiarities about your particular snowflake. The thing is, the fact that you’re reading this and you are actively following this thread, means that you already started putting in the work, irrespective of why you follow this thread, like because you are considering, defensive, angry, curious, etc.

This is exactly correct! It is really important to understand, that in a healthy society, NTs are supposed to provide NDs with the material conditions to survive, so NDs can inspire them and bring culture forward. You need to stop thinking you need to be the provider of anything else than profundity! Sounds familiar? Notice that Leo has figured all of this out for himself through trial and error. So what’s the big deal? My claim is that there was never an alternative path for him to begin with from the moment he was born and the same goes for all of you.

This was not a real manic crash out. “Yes, learning about ND will solve your problems Lmao” was a manic crash out I give you that. Also, the response I initially prepared is a manic crash out (It’s really fun I need to post it somewhere, so people can admire it lol). But do you really think this tiny crash out wasn’t even a little bit justified? You need to realize that “I don’t really have any hobbies” is an incredibly disingenuous argument. Also, it’s not even true. Do you really think that collecting masks and fossils does not count as a hobby just because he posts about it in his blog? Give me a break. He obviously lied to weasel himself out of this discussion (in some ways this is fair, he is a busy man after all. I’m not inherently against weaseling). That’s already bad and worth a little crash out. But what’s even worse is the possibility that he didn’t just lie to us, but he also lied to himself (which is actually more likely imo). @Leo Gura you need to realize something. I’m totally with you that uncritically accepting some label about yourself from a random stranger on the internet is dangerous. If you weren't skeptical, It would be boring and hypocritical. But what’s even more dangerous is rejecting some idea so much that you become willing to outright lie to yourself. You must realize that this means that anyone on the planet potentially has power over you as soon as they happen to find something you are defensive about. It's necessary to note, that I'm more strict with Leo than with other people here, not because of ego, but because it is his responsibility to help this community to heal. Much more than it is my responsibility.

You need to become open to the fact that I might not just be some random idiot

stop trying to outsmart me and start carefully considering my points

NTs don't have diverse passions if you will

the reason you don't have hobbies is bc you make money with your passions

you have GOT to be kidding me.

:3

ssssssssssstfu jk😂

@Xonas PitfallHAHAHAHAHHAA I LOVE IT!!! ps can I steal that image pls?