Elliott

They say socialism bad because they don't want Trump in charge of their health care or groceries, and they don't want to pay for whiny suburban kids college.

In regard to opposing socialism, which is the singular issue that lets republicans win.

In that vein, I was trying to say even dumb people can know something that you don't.

And who was I talking to and what electorate was I talking about? I was talking to a specific user, a socialist, the electorate i was refering to was not exclusively republican voters. Electorate doesn't mean whoever wins the election, it's all voters.

I didn't say they understand capitalism, i said some people understand the benefits of capitalism. Most people don't know what's going on, especially conservatives. Most people do know some things though.

It's just convenient that they're not the billionaires though? That they would be the beneficiaries. They only support it because they are a part of that group, that happens to be larger. I asked for people to think critically about their positions. A lot of people do know the hazards of socialism and understand human nature, and a lot of people do understand the benefits of capitalism, I don't believe most individuals understand both socialism and capitalism, no, but collectively through voting, the electorate 'understands' in a way. Most people that support capitalism don't understand socialism, that's not what I mean, I meant the electorate as one, the outcomes of elections, and I don't mean that it's completely correct, just that elections go certain ways for a reason. Either 80 million Americans are literally retarded, or, they may see something you don't.

Rural families growing their own food, repairing their own houses and vehicles, isn't a self-sustaining lifestyle? You need planned and governed communities, governed business, governed education, governed farming for self sustaining lifestyles?

Here's the epitome of stupidity and contradiction for me from socialists Socialists rail about free college right? What is college for, what do they want free college for: to make people smarter or to get better jobs? And then Socialists in their next breath rail for 'escaping the system', yet they're promoting the system in the other breath by promoting college and 'better jobs' as the answer. Socialists should be promoting self-sustaining lifestyles if they want to 'take down the system', what they promote clearly shows you that they don't care about basic needs, they're just envious and lazy, they want the system for themselves. How many socialists are running around demanding we feed and house the poor of the world, and then how many are demanding higher pay for baristas and amazon workers, free college, the ability for young people to move out of their parents homes, take more expensive vacations? What really is their order of priorities? How are they ethically different than Republicans in regards to economics?

I was sincerely just asking for people to think critically. They understand capitalism vs. socialism better, they understand human nature better. Socialists believe socialism is about cooperation while capitalism is solely about competition, but capitalism is based on cooperation, free will cooperation while socialism is based on forced cooperation. Socialists believe people will cooperate together ethically if we ban competition, that's not how people work, even fellow tribesmen steal from each other and harm each other. 'Competition' means immediate options, means immediate free will, which means immediate repercussions for businesses and people behaving unethically. Socialism in practice has a harder hurdle to police ethics. Socialists think that government healthcare would be better for people, but Trump would be in charge of our healthcare right now. Socialists believe americans have no agency, that they have no choices, it's not true, a lot of americans just make dumb choices.

This thread is about democrats winning elections. Have you considered that you might be wrong about the theories you espouse? That the electorate might understand something better than you do? That's what critical thinking is, critically questioning your conclusions and information you've used to come to conclusions.

So, you admit that the electorate doesn't buy what you're selling? It's not a winning political issue to get elected?

So, the majority of Americans helping themselves politically, is a more difficult task than women's and black's voting rights or ending slavery?

So, it doesn't work for bernie but you think it will work for democrats, the "media and big corporate" will stop bernie, but not democrats?

Then why doesn't bernie win? should be able to run on his own and win 80% of the vote, no? why isn't the socialist party more than 2.000 members?

I think it's safe to say that you're just making stuff up

The middle class isn't destroyed, they're in the best place they've ever been. Much better living standards, working standards, ability to attain upper class, more ability in general. Prices have increased, real wage has stagnated but not declined all while living standards have improved. All while the rest of the developing world have made amazing gains due to trade with the u.s.. https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2024/05/31/the-state-of-the-american-middle-class/ From 1971 to 2023, the share of Americans who live in lower-income households increased from 27% to 30%, and the share in upper-income households increased from 11% to 19% Just look at what boomers and Gen X blow their money on. ChatGPT The U.S. middle class hasn’t been destroyed, but it has been eroded and reshaped over the past few decades due to several economic, political, and social forces. Here's a breakdown of what's happened: 📉 What's Happening to the Middle Class? Shrinking Share of the Population According to Pew Research, the share of American adults in the middle class has declined from 61% in 1971 to around 50% in recent years. Stagnant Wages, Rising Costs While productivity has risen, real wages for many middle-class workers have stagnated since the 1970s. Meanwhile, costs for essentials like housing, healthcare, childcare, and education have increased sharply. Job Polarization Many middle-income jobs (especially in manufacturing or clerical work) have been replaced by: Low-wage service jobs High-skill, high-paying tech or financial jobs This leaves fewer opportunities for stable, mid-income work without a college degree. Wealth & Income Inequality The top 10% of earners have taken a growing share of national income and wealth. Meanwhile, the middle class holds a shrinking share of total U.S. wealth. Housing and Regional Displacement In many cities, the middle class is priced out of homeownership. Suburban sprawl and gentrification have also shifted where the middle class can afford to live. 📈 But It's Not All Doom: Some middle-class families have moved up into upper-income brackets due to higher education, two-income households, or entrepreneurial success. The U.S. still has a large and diverse middle class, just under more strain than in previous generations. 🔍 Summary: Destroyed? No. Shrinking and under pressure? Yes. The American middle class still exists but is facing major stressors and is more economically insecure than in past decades

The fact that he's independent disproves it is a formidable two-party system. In your estimation what progressives voted for trump, how many, and how many sat out the vote? Mamdani won the democratic primary with little resistance, democrats didn't even run a contender against him. The problem is that Socialist policies are mindless in my opinion, lack any reasoning and are full of contradiction. For example, how many people are leaving the "wage slavery" system to live more self-sustainable lives, how many people are selling their suburban million-dollar homes and moving out to humble rural areas to grow their own food. I didn't say why isn't everyone, I understand many people cannot do this, but why aren't more people doing this? Why aren't more people car-less and riding bicycles. Why do so many people have expensive vacations, working class people, why is tourism a leading industry? Why is fast food a leading industry? It's because the system works for the people, again it's not a zero sum gain system, yes the rich are disproportionately getting richer, we need to tax the heck out of them, BUT the system works for the people too. Socialists are just envious and lazy. How many of these popular hard-working activists have started health insurance co-ops? Grocery chain co-ops? Why don't they focus in on some progressive towns and grow the movement from them? It's because their theory is flawed.

There are intrinsic problems with socialism. Socialism is completely unnecessary and yet comes with steep dangers. Captialism works, we currently don't have capitalism. Capitalism requires regulation, elimination of monopolies, and disproportionately taxing corporations and the wealthy: which is only fair because they benefit more from tax revenue. You do not need socialism to take care of the needy, you can have free housing, healthcare, and food for the needy without socialism. You can have free education without socialism. Socialism is fundamentally based on the false premises that capitalism is opposed to cooperation, and that humans are naturally ethical. Even in tribes, fellow tribe members steal from each other, kill each other, harm each other. Capitalism is completely based on cooperation. Socialism puts all your eggs in one basket, for instance Trump would be in charge of our healthcare and income right now.

Bernie is not a democrat and has never worked to improve the democratic party, he's literally not a registered democrat, he only tried to hijack the party because again, socialists are lazy. He's a charlatan. You're trying to say the u.s. system is rigged to prevent socialists from winning local positions, state seats? Preposterous, socialists have never put in any work, and never will, it's literally their nature.

You think Bernie has done something in 50 years, let me prove to you very easily that he hasn't, why hasn't he built up the socialist party, why doesn't he build the socialist party every 4 years by running an enthusiastic Socialist primary? Why doesn't he support smaller socialists to run and build the party, the position of mayor in nyc is not a small position by the way. By your assessment of reality it should be extremely easy given everyone wants bernies policies and no one likes democrats. Just because socialists haven't been in power doesn't mean they couldn't do anything, they haven't built their party, at all, haven't even tried. Before you go on about splitting the left, that doesn't apply to state and local positions, it would make no difference to split the vote in many areas. You can build a socialist party, but just like socialist policies and public outreach, they're lazy as fuck.

You have to quit thinking about voters as two different nations, they're American voters, how did Biden win in 2020 then? 1/3 of voters are swing voters, between democrats and republicans by the way, not socialists. Biden won over progressives, that's why he won? LMAO, the 90 year old white career senator, that said he would veto medicare for all? But Harris wasn't progressive enough, the candidate that is open to Medicare for all and occasionally pushes for it? Biden was so enthusiastic, huh? Liberal policies are good for the economy. Medicare for all, free college, 'Stop Oil', cutoff Israel, universal basic income, reparations, DEI are bad for the economy. The economy is not what's most important though, and we have to admit some progressive policies will hurt the economy because they are better for the people. Biden got the most votes ever by the way. Old white, out of touch Biden. Too much energy apparently, lol, oozing with enthusiasm.

No you don't, you should consider the common voter, is a woman running for president "woke" to them? You should not fight for policy, you should educate the public to the point they agree with you, policy change should be from a consensus. It's lazy to just want to push new policy through, progress requires outreach and educating. "Inequality" you have to stop thinking like the world is zero sum gain, rich getting richer does not mean the poor are not doing better. The democrats do progressive policy when in power. The world has REDUCED inequality due to democrats, globally, the people have gained in equality, again you're cherry picking a selective snapshot, and what's funny is that it is a snapshot of suburbanites in America, as a 'socialist' you're supposedly supposed to care about all people.

A woman running for president is progressive. It's progressive action, it takes up some of the available bandwidth for progressive action. Too many people are inundated and overwhelmed with too much stuff all at once, this causes a knee-jerk reaction toward 'nazism'. You have to look at all action currently proposed, the American voter has to process all of this and they don't understand most of it, so they vote out of fear for what they do know, the status quo. Of course there is support for SOME progressive policies, the problem is the other policies. Medicare for all is a monumental task for implementation and would require a super majority in congress to be able to pass an effective system, look at how republicans just effectively repealed Medicaid for example, would you want Medicare for all and then 4 years later Republicans sabotage healthcare for 70% of Americans. You think Obama wasn't progressive; the largest tax increase on the wealthy since the 50's, expanded medicaid and snap, Obamacare, home buyer credit, child tax credit, environmental policy? That's some socialist propaganda you're smoking. Sanders has been in office for 50 years and his only accomplishment is getting RID of medicaid, he isn't a progressive, he's a cartoon character, completely ineffective. Biden was dealing with the trump recession and covid, you have to deal with emergencies before you worry about some whiny suburban socialists wanting free college and universal basic income. You think medicare for all should have been a priority in 2020? That's crazy, the u,s, is in terrible financial position, the dollar is on brink of collapse. Socialists have lost us Medicaid, SNAP funding, USAID, school funding, and environmental protections: but hey, 'suburban baristas and amazon workers really need to be able to buy new cars!!', strawmanning of course, but this is what socialists look like to most people. https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/archive/mood_of_america_archive/generic_congressional_ballot/democrats_expand_lead_in_2026_congressional_forecast Jul 22, 2025 · The next midterm elections are still more than a year away, but the Democratic Party has widened its lead over Republicans in the battle to control the House

And women running is progressive. There is only backlash if enough people don't support the policies, there was not enough support for Obamacare, Snap and Medicaid expansion, student loan forgiveness, trans sports,..... People vote Republican for less government action, less progress, they don't consider who is the better or smarter candidate, they don't listen to the candidates, the parties are binary to them based on the issues. We have a ton of progressive action right now, Obamacare, Medicaid expansion, environmentalism, trans rights, student loan forgiveness, open borders, taxes, ...... It's easy to paint a target that shows democrats mean higher prices, because they do, just for good reasons. The problem is, we're doing all these things already and then you have idiots like AOC shouting from the rooftops for free college, reparations, defund the police, nationalize healthcare,...... And they don't explain their positions, their only argument is "it's a right!" It's stupidity, lazy, I support the proposed changes, but the sales technique is as dumb as Trump's, so you get backlash just like Trump does from liberals. Items need to be addressed in a prioritized manner, one at a time, and THOROUGHLY explained to the public, you need to get the public on board before implementation, otherwise you get republicans. Kamala only lost the entire election by a few thousand votes in two states. Hakeem polls just as good as AOC and Mamdani, I wasn't suggesting him for President, he's not running for president. Democrats have won Governor in RED states, Kentucky, Arizona, North Carolina,.... both senate seats in Georgia, Arizona, Virginia,.... democrats are doing great, progressive is inherently the underdog, change is always an uphill battle. 2024 had record inflation, it would be a hard race for anyone and Kamala almost won with 100 days to run. https://apnews.com/article/student-loans-debt-cancellation-forgiveness-d213afe3ea69da3c6b9e713c7dc16a9a Jan 13, 2025 · President Joe Biden has now overseen the cancellation of student loans for more than 5 million Americans