Mellowmarsh

The you is known conceptually only. That’s the illusion of knowledge, it can only point to the object of knowing. Are you an object?

Who or what exists when thoughts are not arising?

Then we’re talking about concepts. Concepts are known in their conception but not by the I The I is already known, so the known know nothing. And doesn’t have to know anything. Knowledge belongs to the mind, which is the illusory dream of separation.

Because thoughts are things. And you are not a thought thing, only that which is not a thing can be aware of things, things don’t know anything.

If that’s true it’s because there’s a you present in thoughtless experience that knows it’s having a thoughtless experience. Even though a you is only possible as a thought thing, and not a not thought thing, in this conception. It’s like the concept known as nonduality. Nonduality cannot be a thing known , because nonduality is not a thing.

Again, this is about knowledge and knowing. A tree is known to exist, as a human mental construct, but does the actual tree in and of itself know it exists, can the actual tree tell itself “ I am a tree” ?

Knowing arises and falls in conjunction together in the instant knowing arises, and is known in this conception. If thoughtless experience is not equal to nothing, then it must be something, so what is it, and can you describe your own thoughtless experience , and what it is, in a way that it is not equal to nothing?

Thoughtless experience. How so? When there’s no thinker to say “I am not thinking” ?

Describe your own “thoughtless experience”

The concept I is known, yes, that’s the knowing. It’s a known mental construction of knowledge, of a thinking mind. But what is the experience of a “thoughtless experience” ? If you say nothing. Then that’s what I meant by saying the I is known, and that which is known knows nothing. Knowing nothing is not an experience, because there’s no thought present to acknowledge the experience happened. We are referring to knowledge here, to thought, are we not?

Okay thanks. Because how can oneness, this united knower and known, as one thing only, possibly know itself?

And I said there’s no such experience as a thoughtless experience. What was the question you wanted an additional explanation from? Can you ask me again just so we can both be clear what we are referring to?

First: . . because you asked why it can’t be both. Second: . . it’s connected, meaning it’s both, in the exact same instant, in this conception, one with the knowing, implying there’s a duality of knower and known. Both.

Knowing that you are is the known. The known is where the knowing begins and ends in the exact same instant the knowing arises, one with the knowing.

It can, if the thinker is the thought, and the thought is the thinker. Both are each and the other the same thing, in this conception. “Both” implies a knower and known conjoined as twoness.

Because a”thoughtless experience”is still a thought.

A “Thoughtless experience” is a thought. A “thoughtless experience” is impossible.

This is known. And that which is known knows nothing.

You can only know the you that lives and dies. You cannot know the you that does not live or die. You can only know noun reality not verb reality… in this conception. The you cannot predicate the you’s existence except in this conception as and through the (mental realm) or dreamscape phenomena.

I agree. Devoid of illusion , leaves a reality that’s an ineffable unknown. An illusion knowing it’s an illusion generates a paradox where there isn’t one in reality.

Why, because existence implies life which is impossible without death. What is written is some knowledge known in the immediacy of its mental conception, one with the knowing. . . Including living and dying. In this conception, what once appeared to be alive can also be later observed to be unalive due to irreversible changes. It can also be observed that there’s no existence of conceptual knowledge existing outside of its mental conception. Knowledge is a mental construction, analogous to an ever changing dreamscape. Insofar as nothing that can ultimately change from being alive to being unalive can ever be REAL.

The best feeling is when you look at him and he is already staring.

If death never happened, then an infinite self-transforming existence doesn’t happen either. Knowing/ knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of Reality, in this conception.

Awesome 🤩!! This is not for sale. It’s like trying to know what darkness is by shining a light on it. There comes a time when you quit being a useful idiot and just let go.

There is only “your” truth. Everyone else gets their truth from the exact same source, namely, from their imagination.