ryoko

NO! It's muscles!

Sharp.

One thing which will help realising early on is, money is just a means of trade. You might come across communities which portray money and it's existence as fundamentally wrong. There's truth to it, but also realise this is not a money problem. This is a human nature problem. If the world wanted they could have made the value of stuff elemental. But most trade had always been based off of scarcity and inequality. Money is something which amplified the atrocities and discriminations in the world. Simply because it's an efficient medium for doing whatever humans wanted to do. And it's closely tied to the hivemind. There's no inherent worth. It's not like you can save a dollar bill and expect the same values 1000 years later. Or even have the same quality of life with same money in different places. One thing you can learn early on is, position yourself where you want to be. Never put yourself in a position where you're stuck in paradigms you don't wanna be part of. Think about Leo's reasons for quitting his Gamedev job, that's a great example. There's more than the eye meets. Contemplate on this. Everyone deserves a good material life. Don't fall into the trap of demonizing the medium. Sure, human beings may be dumb, but the medium itself deserves no karma loading. Reminds me of the terms like blood-money, drug-money, slave-money, wage-money, free-money. No, there's just money and human nature. Poor money didn't do anything wrong. But that doesn't mean we don't need an upgrade of medium when humans have corrupted the ecosystem of money. So keep an open mind. The ecosystem created from money, aka economy, is punishing a lot of people around the world, never be blind to those realities. Know that money is just current expression of our unequal world, before money it was visible through other means. And I bet the future will have other means, more sophisticated. Reminds me of that movie where people trade in time because of genetic engineering advancements. Poor people die fast, rich people are basically immortal. It's not a conscious being's job to save all those suffering, trapped in the ecosystem. Life finds ways to equalize everything. You're free to make mistakes, iterate. Final verdict: there's no such thing as conscious business. All business is unconscious. If you want to be conscious, know the real cost of being part of this game. Accept it, but make the kill regardless. It's pain, but take it in.

Absolutely

@Daniel Balan You gravely under estimate the consequences of living in a first world country. You're basically trapped to work for the country. In my eyes there's no worse slavery. If a person is considering leaving their country for any and all reason, it's valid. We don't know their full context, what they value. It's absolutely insensitive to judge people's choice of migration. I would encourage to trust their gut and make the move. But not to be blind to what they are getting into, and weigh in on that, themselves.

That's where I disagree, human nature is not a mappable terrain. Hence 4D -> 1D, not 2D Reveals truths, no, it's not revealing anything. It's giving categories to associate and project. It's reductionism at it's core.

It's like trying to create a map for 4D in 1D. It's a really good 1D map though. Just know that it will never be enough.

@Karmadhi Don't take Spiral Dynamics seriously.

Keep art seperate from society. The first thing I did before even attempting to learn art was, purging all societal influences, and find out what "I" really wanted to create. It's very difficult, but worth it. Burnouts from physical exhaustion is one thing. But don't sell your soul, little by little. I can't assure you it's recoverable.

Spirituality is a post-survival. It's death.

Reminder: Building civilization is a collective responsibility. Just as we willingly or unwillingly contribute to the existence of what's currently there, any and all intent for a future will follow the same dynamics. There's nothing wrong with doing what you do to survive. I empathize with you, even if you are the CEO of a multi billion corp, or someone who is struggling to get by. There's nothing which separates you in my eyes. Have a good day.

I want to put this out there. For those of you who had your hopes up after knowing about Venus Project. https://jacque-fresco-edu.net/why-not-the-venus-project https://www.bigworldsmallsasha.com/2019/09/13/why-i-left-the-venus-project/ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cIkdI7qBQzif7z3yFKKNuYNyw7gKADrzoyPq__Adjhg/edit?tab=t.0 Check out all the hyperlinks on these pages. It's gonna be a long read. This is very relevant to the discussion @Bjorn K Holmstrom and I were having in

Let my intent with sharing this be very clear! This is a case study, of the real challenges while attempting something of that magnitude. Just one failed iteration, 1000 more to go. Anyone who says otherwise can get fucked!

I don't think there's any qualitative difference between how you feel now and how they felt bad many years ago. You can't feel bad beyond a threshold. And I think people are in a worser state now than it was before. Think about it like this, hunter gatherers didn't need any form of technology to feel good or live a good life. And there's still indigenous populations who live with the same values. This shows living a good life has nothing to do with development or materialism, more than we make it.

Here's my take, having never taken any form of substance ever, not even alcohol and tobacco. There's a precedent, my friends all of them are very relaxed and engage in substances, LSD, weed, you name it. But they're not interested in spirituality per se. I've maintained this stance for various reasons. I value discipline so much more. I've been obsessed with meditation and spirituality since I was 16. And I've had mystical experiences which completely altered course of my life, early on. This is not random, I've been practicing kriya yoga consistently. And these *high* experiences are not something to get attached to. I eventually stopped kriya yoga too. You inherit too much dogma in the process. I had a lot of purging to do. It's been a few years I'm clean of kriya yoga. Feels good. I may be naturally receptive to mystical experiences. There was this few months I found out the pleasure house in the brain and started to call upon that at will. This just ruined my rhythm. It's not necessarily bad if you combine it with proper work. But it's not sustainable. Needs a lot of maintenance. This is a common level up among meditators. But, I realised these are not worth it. Again, more unlearning now. And gladly I don't do it anymore. It just makes no sense. I intuitively know I'm very obsessive, this is serious. I don't care about my own life when I set out to do something. So I stay away from external substances, at all costs. This has it's perks, and it's very much aligned with the life I live. My obsessions are channeled into what I do, and there's nothing more I need. My environment anchors me. I know many do not have the luxury or means to live in proximity to nature. It really helps me balance my fire. What's next is physical activities, it's a necessity. Something simple like x number of pushups everyday is enough. Something to get your blood pumping. Recently installed a pull-up bar in my room. Build tolerance for mental and physical pain, that's all it takes. Don't panic when you feel drained after experiencing flow state for hours. This is normal and rest like your life depends on it. Get gritty. You have to be totally comfortable living a life of pain all the time. That's the cost. Don't expect life to be all bliss. This idea of bliss 24x7 is unfortunately a very bad propaganda spread by people who market bliss. That's not how human brain works. I have tendencies of tangential thought and making connections through unusual means. Why am I even mentioning all this? Just letting you know in case you're like me, don't get pressured by those around you. You can totally have mystical experiences without any external substances. I think environment and obsessions are crucial factors. Genetics plays a crucial role too. Every tribe had a shaman, and in modern times, it's no exception. Know your gifts, and be mindful of what you intake. I would never in a thousand years take psychedelics. I'll call it myself, whatever I wanna experience. This is my ego. P.S - I eat one meal a day, used to be vegan. But I found it's better to have chicken daily. Meat of higher order organisms are too difficult for my energies. So, it's very rarely I consume them.

Bjorn, I think we should move these discussions to https://www.actualized.org/forum/forum/16-self-actualization-journals/ or a seperate thread in relevant topic As a brainstorming ground, having ideas public is a good way to find holes in the logic. P.S - Society, Politics section is a good pick.

I see immense potential in these endeavors you've been mentioning. AUBI and BAZs closely align with my own values. But I bet our interpretations are massively different. We need systems which evolves and are not fixed in stones, this is why a utopian vision and beyond is a good anchor. The problem in the world is, no individual established the concept of money or capitalism, it just came about, and it doesn't want to die. This shouldn't repeat. There must be immense flexibility, just like the freedom we have in FOSS, freedom to modify and alter the systems in place, freedom to iterate, freedom to branch off, freedom to opt out. Just be prepared for massive failures. Your concern for whether this will fall into master-slave dynamics is premonition, this is why I mentioned homelessness, colonization, inequality multiple times. It is totally possible to bring about changes which might be concern of immediate environment, but that's not enough in the long run. Many countries are still being exploited for profits, there are things which need addressing. Any and all solutions, expect it to adopt the hypocrisies of current world. Because a country/individual will first attempt to improve itself, not improve it's neighbors to bring them to an equal footing, this is why a true global identity is crucial for these endeavors. I'm not being moral here, I would do the same, first take care of my own survival before I help the next person, this is mostly constraints of our current world, it will force everyone to be ruthless as long as we are operating out of scarcity and trauma, but I'm not blind to the fact that it's absolutely not the way. It won't solve anything. Not having a global government is such a massive roadblock, people's identities clash over so much, look at what America is doing, and it's the most developed economy? I see you're blind to so many things, you don't take into account the gravity of these, and how these will come back to haunt an established order later if not integrated early on. I fundamentally disagree with a lot of things. But let's face it. Coordination cannot be pre-designed for thirds. It must emerge organically like Mohenjo-daro's river-guided consensus. Current frameworks like BAZs still carry the master-slave infection vectors of "governance" and "contracts". I can assure you, trying to use BAZ as a means to tackle problems will fail immensely. Because, that's not radical autonomy. That's just another institution at this point. Just because it's gonna be a failure doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. Be fully conscious of the consequences and roadblocks. Seeing the problems as is, and bring them to the surface and making it see the light and being immensely aware of it, whilst seeing one's own limitations and seeing what's actually causing problems, will go a long way. Imagine Trump telling the world: "Guys, we are traumatized, we can't live without exploiting you all, we will be so hurt if we are not doing what we are doing. Just the idea of facing the consequences of what we are doing, will get in the way. So we are going to be the same, don't expect us to change, we are not backing down." and that's putting it too compassionately

One crucial thing about FOSS ecosystem is, there's already something tangible, something the individuals can use immediately, in the form of programs or tools, this is what encourages contribution. The percentage of contributors(in the form of code, money, community support) to users is very stark, the only driving factor in FOSS ecosystem is care. People care enough about something to work together. Tie this back with the radical autonomy I outlined before. There's no form of duty or obligation. The only driving factor for contributions is "we want to make this better". There will be users who want to contribute but cannot do it, because of scarcity and lack of skills, but the programs and tools are not excluded for them. The GNU GPL and similar licences give everyone the access to do with the program what they please, with the only requirement being, the freedom never gets compromised along the road, everyone can do what you did with your own version of the program. And tech allows for making infinite copies of the program with basically 0 cost, this doesn't happen in the material world. They are weaving ecosystems of abundance. But you can see the state of FOSS programs, they are always struggling for investments, and make little to no profit. This is a reality we have to face. It's no wonder a material version of FOSS ecosystem is not a reality, it would be cool to have infinite space to build and 0 cost for duplication. But earth is already claimed by humans and nations. Richard Stallman worked for nearly a decade with no outside contribution while he was building GNU OS. He is a clear example of the third. So is Linus, although his journey involved working in corporate America for building up his own fortune first, before he was active in the Linux ecosystem. And so is Terry Davis, doesn't matter if he created something completely unusable, he did what he wanted to do, took him nearly a decade, and that's all that matters. He is an inspiration to a generation of programmers, more so than the first 2. This goes to show the dynamics and richness of humans doing their own thing. These guys are clearly outliers, and it's futile trying to make a rule out of outliers. Hence the implied unpredictability.

Don't stop at third. What I proposed is just one of the many possibilities. And I beleive everyone should come up with their own solution. This is not universal.

Third is not an ultimate solution, it's simply the next iteration. Something immediately actionable. The new social dynamics are not predictable. And there's no inherent morality. And beleive me, they are not ones for social contracts. Any and all interaction will be out of pure willingness. Think about open source contributions.

Perhaps I worded it a bit ambiguously: entertainment is what modern humans understand. But it's the same root for creation as play. In modern times we try and compartmentalize entertainment as something inherently consumption, that's not how I see it. What we find meaningful from the immediate aftermath of capitalist values are hedonism and entertainment. This is not something which will change for a few decades or even centuries. If I think back to the roots of capitalism/modern world, it's a history of scarcity, exploitation and struggle to survive[think back 100,000 years ago], finding fruits of it's labor over generations of struggle in perverted forms now. We have advanced technologically, but regressed morally(most wouldn't agree on this, you can argue we are climbing up the spiral and so on. I don't believe in spiral dynamics to begin with). This was the cost I mentioned, we pick up limitations along with way. And stupidity is one such limitation. Each and every human is different. And most tends towards stagnation, their causes; current culture and institutions are not something we can predictably change all over the world. And if it doesn't happen globally, it will just perpetuate new cycles of inequality, coming back to the homelessness dilemma. Now extend this to third worlds economy. The root cause of exploitations and colonizations in the first place was lack of resources availability, more so than greed; greed is a trauma response to scarcity. Those who are already living in abundance feels no need to improve further. They find better expressions of play. A civilization's indicator of abundance is their cultural richness. Same for trauma of scarcity, it's visible from humanity's moral poverty. And the exploitation within a culture shows up as wounds, in every golden age, some faction was always the oppressed. Renaissance era paints a clear picture of this, slavery was thriving in that age. And I'm not surprised the era didn't sustain. This is coming back to bandwidth problem I mentioned. Humans are simply incapable of seeing the full extent of consequences their actions lead to. This blindness is not a flaw, it's what keeps their interactions energy efficient. This is the reason capitalism still exists when there's clearly better alternatives. And the same reasons billionaires aren't depressed about the impact they're causing simply by being part of capitalism. Same reason the masses mistake any alternative for "communism". We can't convince humans for change. They have to change themselves and it's a very personal journey. And this comes back to crises, a real crises unites humankind like nothing else. Every individual have to feel it in their bones to take any meaningful action. Each human's response to the same crisis will be totally different, for they are not facing the same crises. No crisis is objective. One final thing, the 3 hour work in tribal environment frees them up for better "play". And that's the crucial thing about play, it cannot be forced or influenced. We can't judge humans for what they choose to do with their free time if they have no responsibilities. There's no rule book in the forest, no currencies for kindness, other than kindness itself. A currency for things which ought to be natural will inadvertently end up creating newer perversions, doesn't matter if it's forest or utopia. For your questions, this interaction is of interest to me, forces me to articulate things I've spent the last few years navigating. It's deeply selfish. I don't really think verbally, verbal dimensions of sense making is quite limited. But it's an interesting representation. Although this representation is quite limited and it can't transfer over the full extent. Lived experiences and awareness and your own past efforts will heavily influence and bias your receptivity.

Bjorn I wouldn't consider Venus Project as an immediate exit. Their approach is similar to yours; incremental transition. If we assume Venus Project as a fixed goal, there's a reason why it's not a reality. Energy problem is simply a symptom of something deeper. The Venus Project is not combatible with any of the current institutions, Jacques Fresco had been very open and upfront about it; no nations, no money, no politicians, no business. I'd argue this is crucial it needs to be such. In other words, it's a threat to everyone's autonomy. Capitalism allows for humans to do whatever they want, while TVP is only possible with a world truly aligned and working for the betterment. I truly do not believe this is a problem which can be solved by a few individuals. "This is not a problem to be solved", building civilizations is a collective responsibility. And each individual can only contribute in ways they know best, and are capable of. Jacque had advocated for social engineering to have a strong set of values which would build the world capable of adopting the new system. But this is really not an undertaking which aligns with most of the world, nobody wants to have their values incluenced, even though the irony of the matter is, their values are already been implanted by their environment. Jacque had been attempting to reverse engineer this dynamic before the environment is a reality. I have my doubts about how much of this would be a possibility. Environment is a pre-requisite, you can't influence values before it's a reality. Exception is when people are all freed up of their responsibilities and out of sheer luck, everyone has taken an interest on the initiative. You can already see the futility of this. Also consider this dilemma; there's plenty of homeless folks all over the world. They are the ones in desperate need of a good structure immediately, and they deserve the best just as anyone else. But things are not as easy, the habits of homeless people will be optimized for their own modes of survival they had been practicing up till that point, which is, a lot of rest, minimal work, just enough to fulfil the survival. These dynamics do not serve the project. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be part of it. They need shelter now, not a utopian CAD file. Giving them luxury may yield gratitude, not builders. Tribal leisure ≠ civilized productivity. If people had free time and unlimited resources, they'd find ways for entertainment, not creation. This is the truest nature of human beings, and there's nothing wrong with it. And this works perfectly fine in a tribal settings, especially tropical forests like our ancestors thirved for millenia before branching out to the rest of the world. There's still communities who live happier than the rest of the world, with no connection to the modern world. And this is a very valid option to consider. Forest tribes work 3h/day. Civilization requires 8h+. Who volunteers for the extra labor? But if you're ready to accept that we're not here for happy living, we're navigating a responsibility we started, we wanted abundance, wanted to live not just in forests, we used our minds to build things, we also built limitations along the way. All the problems in the world are caused by human stupity, not lack of innovation. This stupidity is a symptom, of an ongoing process. What will it lead to hard to tell; real crises, apocalypse, destruction of earth, none of this is out of the equation. And I'm not afraid of any of them. I see it as a natural process. And I wouldn't worry about it one bit. I'm totally cool with human extinciton, or even a perpetual dystopia manufactured by humans. ---- Also regarding third, you had misinterpreted it, here's a better breakdown. Engaged disillutionment is key here. Engaged disillusionment ≠ exit. It’s combat-mode clarity. He participates in capitalism, aware of every micro-consequence, whilst capable of being ruthless. The key difference between third's approach and profit maximization is "awareness". One common theme within Capitalism(and stage Green) is, the avoidance of reality, because any form of meta awareness will simply get in the way, so a convenient "story" is necessary, this keeps the individual and hivemind going, while the third takes in all the pain, while remaining aware of the micro-consequences of his actions, just like an animal. Animals understand what they are doing, a lion killing a gazelle is not unaware of the pain it's causing, I'd argue they even empathize with it's prey's pain, a lion doesn't go on a killing spree for the sheer thrill of it, like a human would. I don't think we humans understand animals properly. In our capitalist approach, the system itself rewards unaware behaviour, through exclusivity; perks only those on the top have. This is not something evil, it's a limitation, of having not enough bandwidth to process the full extent of consequences. But also, this is a natural consequence of over exploitation of resources(including effort of other humans). This dynamic is not uncommon in nature/among other lifeforms, human civilization's accumulated intelligence(technology and other faculties) have amplified this in infinite magnitudes. This is my approach, radical autonomy, even if that makes you evil. Be evil, it doesn't matter. Be ruthless. All of it is part of nature. A lion is not evil for hunting a gazelle. And human beings are infinitely unique and diverse. It's expected of them to blow up the planet a few times over and self destruct. Same is true for the opposite outcome. I'm not particularly attached to any one outcome I think crises can give space for new systems, and sadly only a crises can do it. Human beings need a real cause to take actions. And when you think back, our societies had always been unequal, the only exceptions are indegenous cultures and those civilizations where they valued the whole group over one leader, an organic entity all acting on it's own accord in utmost coherence, out of their own will, see Mohenjodaro, a civilization with no king, built out of people's coordination, and they left the city themselves when resources couldn't be allocated(they depended on the river, it shifted, conditions changed), not because of infighting or wars, they simply decided to step out, despite building such a marvel of a city. That's some level of maturity. This also shows the need for a global network, we're not forest people anymore, we need resources from all over the world.

@Raze Interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

Okay Bjorn, it would have been a crime not to share your work with me. I'm yet to read it in depth. And I'm already disagreeing with the whole structure. I don't agree with you on trying to bring about legal changes, and hoping it would reach anywhere. I find it a waste of time. I'm not saying it won't happen, it's fundamentally against some thing which certain entities need to protect. The following structure has to alter completely into something entirely different, for true change to happen. Read on. ------------- I need to establish some archetypes: the master, the slave and the third. There's many more interpolations of it (third is not a rogue, a rogue would be the master, but in the opposite direction) I'm not talking about individuals here, these archetypes, it's like a sentient entity, more like an energy fields resulting from human interaction. Master slave dynamics is what we have in this world, wide spread. There's structures of power and there's slaves they exploit/exploited. Majority of the world falls under slaves. They are hopeless about trying to change what the master decides, they have no strong opinion of their own, nothing. Mostly because it won't help them survive. This is why alternative frameworks get little to none energy. There's none to spare from slaves. They need all the energy they can gather, for themselves. And the master ensures it happens so(consumerism/materialism). (And when the energy gets mobilized, it's in the form of revolutions, when the slaves get very upset they don't care about dying. All civil wars and revolutions are caused by this. Yes, there may be actors who manipulated/influenced the masses to mobilize, this is just another iteration of master, just in a different direction. I'm not gonna argue on the morality of this. It is just a natural consequence) Leo said, CIA will be out to get them if they really start making moves to abolish private property. But look at the hypocrisy of it. this is the third. the third finds the whole thing absurd and tries to leave everyone be, to the best of their ability. It aligns closely with indigenous values. "There's no point in wasting time with the first two, they will only do what they want". third is close to an animal. They see everything, feel everything. They don't identify as part of this sharade. engaged disillutionment. You have to understand law is not for everyone. The law doesn't apply when they can justify killing someone in the name of "protecting national security". They're out to get Snowden's head. Do you see where I'm going with this? Law is not concerned with what made the human a criminal, it's concerned with treating symptoms, and not getting to the root of the problem. It's that energy problem again. If we can lock all the criminals up in some place, it's much cheaper than solving the root causes. Any change which will ever happen, will be in direct response to a crisis to their masterdom. And not as a proactive response for the well being of slaves. That's not a priority. It will happen, only to the extent of certain baits. And don't get your head filled with fantasies now, revolutions and civil wars do not threaten masterdom, it just sows the seed for a new one, or temporarily gets halted. Because slaves cannot organize well, they never practiced autonomy. The enemy is not an individual here, we're talking about human dynamics. Monsters created by interaction. ------------ Think about how the whole structure of this can change, while the monsters are still alive. Slaves here are not victims, don't feel sorry for them, they are participants. True change requires transcending the game itself

First thing. You misunderstood the term regression. Or may be you can't see it yet. A stage Green person doesn't go into a boxing ring and fight, unless he's already stage red too. For a purely stage Green person, the expression of red comes in different forms. It can be sticking to his community and values despite the hatred from society, etc etc. A stage blue/orange person cannot endure this for various reasons. But they can endure other things. Why do you think that is? They all have red in them already. Just think about an astrologer who is risking his life studying heliocentrism, in the 18th CE. Copernicus is just the last in the line, there's many who came before him and lost their heads simply because of researching something considered heresy. They show immense grit for pursuit of truth. All of these are expressions of red But if they already have red in them, why the talk of integration at all? think about it. --- Something Important: Spiral Dynamics is false. It's not true that blue is higher than red or red is lower than yellow. It's a false notion. And climbing up the spiral is a fallacy. Because there is no up and down. Spiral Dynamics is at best "map fragments which are drawn by a kid", you won't get a complete map by putting it together, human nature is something which cannot be mapped, it's complexity, you can't reduce it through maps, this structure doesn't allow for maps(Imagine trying to map 4D using 1D logic). But the reason we can predict large groups using spiral dynamics is, because of standardization/industrialization and a myriad of other reasons, humans are not human anymore. This is the reason why Spiral Dynamics is very effective for West.