zurew

Tell that to the solipsists. These people want to use it as an ontological claim, not as an epistemic claim. They constantly conflate epistemology with ontology and dont realize that they are making a jump from "what I am aware of" to "what exists". Notice that they are struggling to connect that jump , they just make the same point over and over again about epistemology and then pretend that they somehow established the ontological part as well. Also notice the incoherency of them saying: there are higher levels of consciousness (more to be aware of) , while also saying "what im aware of right now is the only thing that exists " - so one not being aware that there are higher levels of consciousness is somehow not an issue under their view, even though it clearly is. "What you as a dream character stuck in your own dream is aware of, is the only thing that exists" while also saying "you can wake up from the dream" - gesturing towards something that you are not aware of, while also supposed to be true.

No im not saying that , I dont talk about anything about "other things experiencing reality" (I dont know whether there are other minds or not) - what I am saying is, that the absolute only gets you to appearance appearing, but it doesnt help you to make sense of the nature of the appearance and it doesnt help you to make sense of what kind of properties the appearance has or doesnt have. Again the moment you start to give a story about appearance - you are using something other than what is absolute, and you are subject to be wrong about it. Its you who for some reason wants to claim that solipsism is absolute - its not me who wants to claim that non-solipsism is absolute. In short - the absolute doesnt help shit with reducing down the possibility space - You need conceptual tools for that, and those are subject to being fallible

No , its not direct. Direct is appearance - what you did there is you made a judgement about that appearance and filled it up with content (filled it up with a story about its nature and about what properties it has or doesnt have [non-direct]) Direct doesnt tell you anything about the content. Stuff appearing on my screen is compatible with many different stories explaining it. The moment you enter into storytelling mode ,you are subject to be wrong.

How do you demarcate between this scenario being true (where there is an outside God that is not you, you are just part of God as an individuated consciousness): vs in the scenario where you are God and dreaming everything up and you are not part of any God (solipsism is true).

Like you understand that what you are saying there is compatible with a scenario where you are schizo , no outside input changes your internal states and you are infinitely lost in your own little dream. Like why do you think that a God couldnt create a world where a bunch of individuated consciousnesses are infinitely lost in their own world while not recognizing that there is an outside God, and they are inside God's mind?

No I dont grant that at all, thats an obvious big leap in inference that you are making there. If by "can" there you mean that you wouldn't be able to recognize in principle anything outside of your consciousness , then the answer is yes ,but that doesn't say anything about the outside world, its just talks about the limitations about in principle what you can be aware of. If by "can" there you mean that there isn't anything outside of your consciousness - there you just pressupose that the external world doesn't exist and you pressupose that your individuated experience isn't inside a larger mind that isn't you.

Why do you think that God-realization is impossible under the thought experiment where Christianity is true?

I dont understand this response. How do you get to that conclusion from what I outlined? Why is it that the conclusion from what I outlined isn't that your epistemology is limited?

Sure the response that there is only one possible world is a response where you can rule out all other scenarios - But whats the argument that there is only one possible world?

How does non-solipsism not unfalsifiable?

You are not tracking , we are not talking about what would a solipsistic view entail - we are investigating how adept your epistemology is (that lead you to the conclusion that solipsism is true). The issue again is that using your epistemology you can't recognize what the actual foundation is , because its not adept to recognize what the foundation is. if your epistemology would be adept enough ,then under the thought experiement where Christianity is the foundation, using your epistemology would recognize that Christianity is true, the issue is that your epistemology doesn't do that - in every possible scenario it generates the conclusion that solipsism is true even when its false.

Whats the response to this? Under the assumption where non-solipsism is true , how would you recognize using your epistemology that solipsism isn't true? Your epistemology would generate the exact same insight (that solipsism is true) and in that case you would be wrong, but still 100% confident in your delusion.

I agree with the qualia aspect, but thats not the issue, the issue about what kind of inferences you are making from there. I recognize that appearance is appearing and that I cant doubt that - okay how do you get starting from there to solipsism without making a bunch of inferences?

Your epistemology dont demarcate between possible worlds. If I pressupose a different foundation (we can go with Christianity or any other non-solipsistic view) and use your epistemology - your epistemology will fail to recognize that the foundation is not solipsism and would pressupose in every case that solipsism is true.

Yeah under the view where solipsism is true what you are saying make sense, the issue is under any other view using the method you are saying would just lead to self-deception and false conclusions and hence we are getting back to epistemic issues. Right now, we could be in a world that was created by the Christian god and using your epistemology you could delude yourself into believing that solipsism is true without a doubt. I dont understand why you think that the insights that you gathered and the confidence that you have in your insights couldn't be possibly replicated under any other worldview. Again - if you entertain for one moment that lets say Christianity is true - why do you think that you couldn't gather the exact same insights using your epistemology? Why do you think that under the thought experiment where Christianity is true , you running the exact same experiments and contemplation would somehow lead to anything different? It could lead you to the exact same conclusion that solipsism is true , its just that in that particular case you would be wrong about solipsism being true.

The question isn't "assuming that its relative" - the issue is about you providing justification that its not. Again its an epistemic issue. I dont claim to know or I dont pressupose that what you are saying is relative - what Im saying is that you dont have a good justification that would conclude that its not relative.

No - the issue that you have 0 good response or solution for (but pretend that you do) - is that even under the view where there is an Absolute Truth - How do you know which truth is actually an Absolute truth? You predefine your way there and then pretend that you solved the issue. The issue isnt ontological, the issue that I bring up is epistemological, that you again have 0 good response for.

Oh yeah, the difference is that you reject that when it comes to your specific truth claim, and pretend that yours is somehow not applicable to it , but everyone else's truth claim is subject to it.

So if you can be wrong about the insights that you gather using awakening - then why is it that you think that solipsism is something that you cant be wrong about?

Under the definition what JP provided for the term 'Christian' - You can be a Christian even if you think that Jesus didn't exist and you also think that no God exist at all. I don't understand why some people think that JP should be taken when it comes to theology or philosophy. Like this was a laughable performance by him.

Notice that you didnt provide a solution to the epistemic problem that I brought up, all you did there is that you raised an epistemic objection about questioning. Okay questioning is limited - now from there how you get to "awakening isn't limited" or how you get to "awakening wont give you false insights" ? "Actualized.org users are fooling themselves by understanding what they mean by revelation" We can play these games where I will play as a Christian for the sake of the argument and I will mirror all the objections and epistemic issues that you will bring up.

Or it could be gathering insights through revelation and the realization is that Christianity is true. You would appeal to your awakening and say "nono, I dont care what you gathered through your revelation im right, and you are wrong about Christianity being true" And the Christian would say "nono, I dont care what you gathered through awakening, im right and you are wrong about solipsism being true" Point here is that non-inferential justification is subject to some of the same epistemic limitations as inferential justification. If I question the validity of method by which you gathered your insight , you whole thing is undermined and you cant appeal to the same method to solve this, because that is whats in question. Yes, of course. Im not sure if you had the impression that I thought any differently - this is why I qualify almost all of my statements more than probably anyone on this forum - because I dont want to pretend that I have any beliefs or knowledge that I cant be wrong about.

No , you are not tracking there - the point is that you specify the method by which you gathered/realized those things to be true (you are honest about what they are contingent on and limited to) Yes, but all of those are contingent on other premises and none of them are infallible.