The observer

@UnconsciousHuman Look buddy, I truly get your model. I just don't agree with it. I don't think it's based on deep enough observations. For me, what you're categorising as three is a one, or more accurately an unhealthy manifestation of a two.

Giraffe and elephant. I can't believe you guys are so stupid! Only one person knew the answer! How could you be so dumb?! I mean, for God's sake, only the head is hidden. I thought this platform was for intelligent people, but a kid in kindergarten would guess better. Now, guess the animal that wrote these things above. Hint: me 5 years ago. Applause ?? No need. Haha! Good day! ?

They will still be following you and seeing your activity even if you unfollow them. And they will not get notified when you hit that button and even if they look, they won't be able to know whether you actually follow them or not, so there's nothing to worry about.

Okay.

@UnconsciousHuman I can't Skype/voice chat for a variety of reasons I can't explain.

Okay. I'm sorry. I told you I can't.

As well, if they were to argue with you just for the sake of them being right, then I would classify that as stage TWO. If they were to argue with you to prove that logic is true, then I would classify that as stage THREE. If they were to focus more on human connection and your well-being regardless of logic, then I would classify that as stage FOUR. I'll leave FIVE because I think it's very complex.

I agree, it is fundamentally about "proof", but I don't think it's necessarily about "you wrong". You're adding a self into the context of stage THREE only, while the self is present in all the stages including TWO and FOUR. There is a fine distinction here. You say that a vegan proving the importance of veganism through logic is a stage Green (from SD) with THREE intentionality (from your model). I get that. And you're right. But I think your model is complex and could be simpler. Like, you say that we could have Yellow + THREE (learning +proving) or Green + THREE (e.g. proving the importance of connection or veganism) or Blue + THREE (proving religion/rules and norms) intentionalities. I think this nuance is creating confusion, and that it is based on a little confusion which I'm trying to point out. Fundamentally, THREES approach things with logic and proof. It's just how THREES interact with the world around them. If you're saying logical things, THREES will applaud you, regardless of whether what you're saying is true or not. If they were to argue with you just for the sake of proving you wrong, then I would classify that as stage ONE. Think about it this way, if a stage Orange is trying to prove that logic is true, while using logic, then he is Orange + THREE. Notice that he isn't necessarily focused on proving others wrong or himself right. He's just focused on proving that logic is true. Notice the subtle difference between this and saying that he's only focused on proving others wrong or playing up his self-image. Fundamentally, the function of seeking to be right and playing up the self-image is present in all SD tier one stages, AND in all of the intentionality stages too. Nobody wants to be wrong. That's just the nature of the self. Forget about SD, according to your system alone, how would you classify someone who's trying to prove that logic is true? Notice he values logic. Would you say that he's pure THREE? Or would you say that he's THREE (Orange) + THREE? Of course you would choose the former. Now, change the values that he's trying to prove. What will change? He will still be THREE according to your model. Because his approach is based on proof, logic, and evidence. But we can have a THREE approach to all SD tier one stages. And of course, we can have any approach from your model and apply it to all SD tier one stages. We've basically just got back to what @lmfao said earlier. It's simply more about how someone is approaching a particular discussion. You are trying to track how different approaches manifest in real time (real time values), regardless of the original set of values. And I'm with you. All I'm saying is that stage THREE approach is not the only stage which values being right and self-image. Think of these values as independent factors because you can have a stage THREE who is open-minded and not focused on his self-image. He could be simply focused on proving whatever values he has through reason and logic.

@UnconsciousHuman Okay dude. I truly get it now. But I still don't understand why a stage THREE would be focused on debunking others and/or playing up their self-image. I understand that you're suggesting that it's irrelevant to SD, but I am really convinced that this specific developmental line is in accordance with the original SD model. To put it in another way, people differ in their intentions/approaches at communicating with others according to the developmental line you're suggesting. The least developed intention/approach is ONE which is about extreme self-preservation, and the most developed intention/approach is FIVE which is about self-expansion. And the stages between are shades and degrees for this developmental line. Alright, so stage THREE is supposedly more expansive than stages ONE and TWO, and therefore it's less about self-preservation and more about objective truth, in its own unique ways, of course. Stage THREE sees the limitations and traps of stages ONE and TWO. Thus, I think it is valid to say that stage THREE is more focused on ways which are halfway between self-preservation and self-expansion, which emerge from seeing the limitations of the previous stages and how unaligned they are with the flow of reality. So, what emerges right after conforming, belonging, following arbitrary rules, and preserving the norms? In my view, the debunking others intentionality/approach fits more into stage ONE, because it's extremely focused on self-preservation. On the other hand, the playing up of self-image intentionality/approach fits into every stage with an odd number i.e. ONE, THREE, and FIVE, because those stages are individualistic by nature. What I'm suggesting is that there gets created a mix of ONE and TWO that makes THREE what it is. So, what do you get when you blend these two together? ?? At THREE, you want to have power and rule according to certain norms at the same time. It's like the epitome of TWO, like if you were in a society where everyone was conforming, belonging, etc... but lacking leadership, you'd emerge to become that leader. Yes, playing up your self-image plays a crucial role, but again, I don't think it's one of the essential characteristics for this stage in this specific developmental line. I think the best way to find that combination would be by creating a system of norms which guarantees fulfilling your individualistic tendencies and desires, like logic/rationality. See, logic/rationality claims that you can verify things for yourself without conforming to others by using certain tools that are based on certain norms. Logic/rationality guarantees you having the certainty of TWO, and the dominance/control of ONE. What do you think about that?

@lmfao Thanks! This is a great thread, I absolutely relate to it. And yes, I would say I'm more lexical than impressionistic in this specific phase of my life as I used to struggle so much with articulating my thoughts. Recently, I started shifting from vague expressions to accurate descriptions because I thought it was limiting my communication, especially here. Somehow, I get how impressionists think, relate, and express their thoughts but I have to say when trying to pose a theory, it's generally better to express it in a detailed objective manner than in an artistic intuitive manner. The receivers will understand/interpret your theory differently to each other, so by being lexical at least you guarantee that you are being as objective as possible but then the interpretations which are out of your hands will differ, some will understand your theory like you intended and some won't. Lexical expression gives smaller room for interpretation and thus makes the communication of models more effective. Of course, some people (whether lexical or impressionists) are able to understand and get how impressionists express their thoughts/theories, and that's great. But there's a bigger risk of misinterpretation, at least in our modern times as we're generally more used to the scientific approach. I will watch the video and perhaps give my feedback here. Thanks again.

@VeganAwake ?

In the Abrahamic religions, there is one supreme being which is the ultimate God. Figures like the old man in the sky are metaphors for this. He is necessarily one and only one. He is necessarily omnipotent and omniscient. He is necessarily loving and merciful. He is necessarily infinitely wise. And he is tough on the sinners as well. I think Leo is somehow getting convinced of that idea. Nothing wrong with that per se. But I would say that there might be a problem of unawareness. He seems to take his understanding for Absolute Truth when it is, in fact, a mere understanding i.e. concepts. To contrast that, Leo used to believe that God is one with all beings and that every single point of view is infinite God. Again, nothing wrong with that. But he also seemed to have taken this understanding for Absolute Truth. He always does that as he's an INFP/INTP (not sure which one, but probably the latter). So, basically, he is not bringing anything new to the table. These ideas have been discussed and debated upon for thousands of years. It's just a matter of perspective. You can think of God as one infinite being, which then you must end up worshipping, chasing, seeking, etc... basically like most religions do. And you can collapse that dualistic thought and end your seeking once and for all like the Advaitas do. There are no rights or wrongs here. And no one has a choice, really, for that matter. This is just a possible meta view of what's going on within the minds of human beings and how they lose their truths as part of their communication. Every individual human being has their own truths. When they mistake them for universal truths, they start telling others that they are doing things wrong and that they should change and correct their erring ways. And so the clash between certainty and uncertainty begins. Certain people, like Leo, Jesus, Mohammad, etc... start preaching their own truths. People reject them at first, but then they insist. This insistence creates fear and uncertainty in the receiving side, and adds power to the preaching side. Nothing wrong with that. Just trying to give an oversimplified reading/overview of how I perceive things to work. So then gradually the receivers become blind followers, and then the leaders die and the followers preserve their positions. They refuse to evolve, because they're not seeking change. And so, they become out of touch with reality. This separation creates suffering in the world. And that suffering, somehow, creates another leader that gets to the roots of being and then tries to shape the world in a new better order. This cycle will keep going on forever without meta views, which I'm providing here. Not that my meta view is the only correct one, but that going meta creates awareness of the dynamics at work. God is everything, including meta views, so there's no way for expecting what's next. We're all really just affecting reality in our own unique ways. We're simply altering/veering reality in the ways It allows us to do.

Love this!

There's no self to bypass anything. That's the trick. The whole notion of spiritual (or non-spiritual) bypassing stems from ego trying to control the narrative. There will still be bypassing until you realise that it's illusory. At which point you will be liberated.

@UnconsciousHuman I don't know, man. If I were to create a model like this, I wouldn't say that Orange would be looking to prove everyone else wrong, and show that they are right. Instead, I would say that they would use proof, logic, reason, and rationality as their core values and main principles. To me, taking this position or any other positions is irrelevant to being open-minded and the desire to be right. Sure, they can intersect at times, but I would view them, generally speaking, as parallel to each other and not so much related as that can be the case at any other stage. If this is still out of context with your thread, then I apologise and wish you a good day/night because I am done here.

No, it is not. I mean, sure, the appearance seems like limitation but where are the limits exactly? Really. What is a distinction but another arbitrary distinction (mind, imagination, illusion, etc...)? And just like with fear, look closer and it disappears. You see the sleight of hand? Creating something out of nothing. The formed is, in fact, completely formless, but thought/distinction makes it looks like it's not. That's exactly why form = formlessness. Once you think of distinctions, they get created and you see form. Once you stop thinking of them, they disappear and that's formlessness. Formlessness is not the absence of form. It is the absence of distinction. A distinction is not actually a thing. It does not actually exist unless you allow it to do. As long as you are able to make distinctions, you are living in form. When you move to no-mind/no-thought/no-distinction, you will abide in the formless. One way to achieve this is to surrender everything, including all questions and desires. As long as you accept reality as it is, you are one with it. Once you start resisting/minding/desiring/seeking/questioning again, you create distinction and you separate yourself. This is all illusory and part of the communication process. None of it is actually true. Form cannot be killed either, because life vs. death is an arbitrary duality. This, again, is dualistic language. You can't compare yourself to yourself unless you believe that you are not who you are. In which case, you would be operating from the dualistic mind. However, if you truly believed in duality, and that's your right, then that would mean that there is an external God which you/Leo deny and which the Abrahamic religions worship. Which side are you on right now? You're either pantheistic or monotheistic. You can't be both.

@UnconsciousHuman Okay, I think I get that. But regarding Orange people, you're giving them only one characteristic which is the desire to be right. I don't think that's accurate. I think anyone at tier one regardless of their stage would want to be right, and that desire declines as one moves up to Green until they reach tier two where one stops caring at all about being right or wrong and they become "completely" objective in a sense.

@UnconsciousHuman I hope you will like the suggestions I've made below. . RED: You are looking for ways to develop power and go about it in an impulsive manner. (Trolling, belittling, hating etc...) +RED: YOU ARE LOOKING FOR YOUR OWN INTERESTS WITHOUT CONSIDERING OTHER PEOPLE AT ALL (YOU DON'T SHOW RESPECT OR ANY EMOTIONS, YOU DON'T THANK PEOPLE AFTER GETTING WHAT YOU WANTED). +RED: YOU ARE INTENTIONALITY AIMING AT TRIGGERING OTHERS BY USING SNEAKY MANIPULATIVE LANGUAGE. BLUE: You are here to conform, belong, create ideology, follow rigid rules, and preserve principles. +BLUE: YOU ARE HERE TO SPREAD YOUR WORLDVIEW WHATEVER IT IS. +BLUE: YOU ARE NOT OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITY OF SOMETHING OUTSIDE YOUR CURRENT PERCEPTION AND UNDERSTANDING. ORANGE: You are looking to prove everyone else wrong, and show that you are right. (ACCORDING TO LOGIC/RATIONALITY). +ORANGE: YOU ARE LOOKING FOR PRACTICAL ADVICE. +ORANGE: YOU ARE SEEKING TO IMPROVE YOUR COMMUNICATION SKILLS. +ORANGE: YOU ARE USING THE FORUM AS A TOOL FOR MARKETING YOUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL, WEBSITE, OR BUSINESS. GREEN: You want to contribute to the forum community, connect, bond, and help individuals as well as receive guidance. +GREEN: YOU ARE HERE TO SPREAD HUMANITARIAN VALUES. (INTERSECTION WITH BLUE).

@Consept And I agree. It's good to see this subject being discussed. No one said it should be perfect. We're just stating possibilities for more comprehensiveness. Like for example, someone at stage Orange does not exclusively seek to prove his worldview. He could be looking for practical solutions to some problems he's having without necessarily having to be systematic about them. That's just one thought for expanding the model. Nothing is perfect, yet it does not hurt to try to get closer to perfection. Especially that the OP seems to value accuracy and to be open. It's really good to see him open because then we can offer him our expertise on how to best be open without wasting years of his time (like I did) going about open-mindedness in the wrong direction. Of course, all of our experiences are limited by nature, but what isn't?

@Shiva99 Possible causes: Lack of vision. Lack of direction. Overthinking. FOMO: fear of missing out. Lack of disciplined, passionate, and purpose-driven friends. Lack of alignment with your core values. Lack of expression of your true feelings (e.g. through a journal). Might be some basic stuff like diet, lack of fresh air, lack of sleep, bad postures, or unorganised lifestyle. Addiction. Victim's mindset.

What's the difference? Becoming more solipsistic and nihilistic? And why would you assume that I've not realised God yet?

What work? And would I die if I don't do it? Great then! We're going down the same road. Also, I'm quarantined, fasting for Ramadan, and bored. Can't I just have a little fun with you? Happy birthday, Leo.

Of course, there's nothing personal about anything. Personal is illusory, as is choice. To put it another way, let's just say you were unaligned with God's will (even though that's technically false), and now you are. (I've been there too ?)

Okay. I know this probably sounds basic to you Leo, but the depth of awakening is infinite, right? Isn't infinitely chasing awakening just another form of God? God is free to seek and chase forever and He will still be God. As well, if God drops seeking once and for all, He's also still God. The difference sounds relative to me. There isn't an objective to God because God is Its own objective. For me, letting go of the chase wasn't so difficult. Desire is equal to identifying with imagination. I have very little desire so probably that's why. I don't know why I'm saying this maybe I'm trying to change your mind. I should just stop haha.

I wouldn't say you're wrong, just limiting yourself. We've agreed that there's no right or wrong in SD. And sure, you have valid points, no one is denying that. I would say your model is correct but not quite comprehensive, that's all. I think your model could use some optimisations, and people here are offering you that. It's not my agenda. These are just my observations which are basically projections in the form of thoughts which then were typed by me as "possibilities" and then got interpreted by you as "agenda" probably because of the attachment you have to your model. Not that the attachment is bad or wrong. Again, just limiting in certain ways. I mean me and others who you are arguing with. We're not here to argue, prove, or disprove anything. We don't know you in person and we have no stakes in this game. We're just sharing our thoughts. Yes, perhaps you could sometimes find some people who are looking to condescend your views (Orange and below, according to your model) but it's not likely here on this platform, and also since the different perspectives are multiple and agreeing on a core issue which is that there's more than just one simple way to interpret intentions, then that should ring some bells for you that they probably have a valid perspective and not just trying to prove your model wrong. I would say just try reading all the comments again from a non-attached place and see how different things can be. I think others have offered good insights. If you don't think so, then how can I make any difference? You see the paradox? You don't know until you know. But then how can you know? Sounds impossible, right? But not really. If you've never been to Paris, you don't know Paris yet but you know some other places. How do you get to know Paris while staying in New York? You can't, you see. You have to leave New York and come visit Paris. In other words, you have to let go of your perspective temporarily and try other ones.