Spiral Dynamics - Stage Orange

By Leo Gura - June 25, 2018 | 41 Comments

Understanding the Independent Achiever stage of psychological development

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Jon says:

When you get to stage green, I think you need to clarify how your critical judgment’s about Orange’s mass market/bad for the environment values mesh with the “free yourself from the scarcity mentality” admonitions which you have yourself promolgated in your videos and recommended books. So, for example, in Napoleon Hill or Wallace Wattles’s books where they poo-poo the fear of poverty and the idea that there are not enough resources to go around to make everybody rich. These self-help authors never make it seem that becoming a millionaire is a ponzi scheme. Rather they seem to suggest that everybody can become a millionaire simultaneously… all you have to do is think the right thoughts, have the proper visions, put in the necessary work to realize the vision and deny the existence of any limits from potentially scarce global resources. Is this where Leo falls into stage orange? Also, if people can only move forward into higher stages and never backwards, how come you talk about people who are simultaneously spread across multiple stages like “orangish-blue” or “orange with some elements of green”. Doesn’t this contradict the notion that you cannot regress backwards to earlier stages. If I have one foot in orange, one foot in green, any value I have can drift among both colors. This isn’t the behavior of a one way street.

outlandish says:

This series is extremely helpful. I’ve been aware of these stages for a while, but these talks give so much clarity, it’s much easier to see them now. Looking forward to the rest! As always, Leo speaks with great insight and humility.

clem says:

The color spectrum of spiral dynamics that you have presented is a very interesting mirror for self reflection. It has proved to be a valuable tool for answering the question, “who am I?” It allows us to step back and evaluate our families of origin and see how they have inculcated us with their system of values and world view of reality.
With some of my family members firmly established in the blue zone, others firmly orange, and a few half and half, it is no mystery why I had so much confusion over where I fit in. My motivation to find answers through self actualization caused me to rebel against the status quo and eventually brought me into the green zone and beyond. When conscious awareness is seen as a structured spectrum of human values, the hidden cast system is revealed. The need to justify beliefs and fight against the “others” is dissolved and replaced by compassion and empathy for all of us. In practical terms this info enables one to evaluate and determine how to interact with others in a positive way that can influence their thinking outside of the box. Imparting this knowledge of human dynamics to our children is a key to saving our species and making earth a more friendly planet to visit.

Xain says:

Well you aren’t rebelling against anything, you are merely being indoctrinated by another set of beliefs under the guise of rebelling. What you claim the “blue” have done is what is happening here. One cannot “choose” what they believe or are persuaded by, it just happens.

The need to justify beliefs is important for without it then any claim can be made and there would be no point to this video, books, or anything else. We could all make a claim about reality and not be challenged.

Not to mention that the “truth” when you strip everything away is not compassion, or love, or empathy. That is still part of the dream, unconditional love does not really exist. What remains is something so hostile to awareness that we seek to fill it with “actualization” and love, it is the void. The pure emptiness that nihilism talks about that humans try to avoid at all costs.

Bear in mind that anything else is a dream. That’s why I can’t really buy into his videos. Not only has he been wrong about a great deal of topics (quantum mechanics being chief among them) but also at what lies at the bottom when you strip everything away.

I did always wonder what meditation yielded when you had no prior teachings. Unfortunately there is no way to study that since self reporting (while not meaning they lie) does not tell us the whole truth and is really just there interpretation. Even nonduality cannot be said to be truth, since it is likely a product of teachings and not the truth. Sure everything is made of atoms and what differs is their arrangement, but that is watering things down too much.

My point being is that no one is rebelling, they merely trade a set of beliefs for another and call it rebelling.

clem says:

Thank you for taking the time to shred my thoughts. Sharing your hostel awareness and critical commentary has opened my eyes. It is such a relief to waken from the dream and realize that the useless baggage of truth, love, joy, compassion, and empathy do not exist. Now I can join you in the greater purpose for living; helping multitudes of people that are trying to avoid the “true” reality of life by trolling web sites and calling out bull shit. Your unsights are so ill-uminating, opening the way to the ultimate attainment of putting an end to our stupid meaningless empty lives. Only then can we embrace your truth of forsaking the futility of existence. I am now looking forward to dissolving into the infinite pure emptiness of the void. May your whiss-dumb and unlightening perspective grow to become a beacon to the suffering world of humanity.

Xain says:

I’ll repeat myself, but to no avail, spiral dynamics is not an actual thing that exists in reality. There are no higher or lower stages, it’s just a chart where someone assigned arbitrary labels to things and gave this illusory notion of progress or development when really there are no such stages.

outlandish says:

Of course it’s not an actual thing, it’s just a model that may or may not be useful.

You could say the same thing about the colour Orange itself – there’s no such thing as the colour Orange, it’s just a label we assign to that wavelength range of electromagnic radiation (and in turn none of those labels are ‘real’). But, we tend to find the model of “Orange” as a colour to be very useful for communication and making sense of the world.

Maybe the model of Stage Orange in spiral dynamics context is a useful model too. I think so, but it’s certainly nothing to be dogmatic about.

Xain says:

Well in a way you could say there is such a thing as the color orange, unless you are color blind. Saying that orange is just a label we assign is splitting hairs and is ultimately a trivial statement. What could be said is that the color we see is based on the receptors in our eyes and we assume others who look like we do can see the same. Regardless of what you call it, the color is the same. Although to say it is a model would be incorrect.

Spiral dynamics might be a model, but considering it is rooted in social science and psychology its not something to take to heart. The descriptions are arbitrary and so are the categories. It’s not like the color orange which one cannot make it appear to be anything else (from one’s perception) and calling it something else does not change what your eyes see. It is far different from this model since we are referring to sensory data and not abstractions. The “color orange” does in fact exist, if only to at least one who can perceive color. I don’t think psychedelics undermine this since the following experience is just the effect of a drug. Nothing can really be concluded about reality based on it.

But this still doesn’t dispel the myth of progress or development.

Jon says:

I’m looking forward to your stage green and yellow videos. I’ve also ordered the book on Spiral Dynamics, as I am starting to think this as a very good topic and much appreciated. Thank you, Leo!

One more point. Perhaps you will address this in your stage green video. When you talk about stage greens and “hippies” being at a more advanced stage than republicans, or that is, when you engage in judgmental criticism towards Donald Trump, why do I get the impression that at a subconscious level, at least, it feels as if you are endorsing the overall politics of the left over the right? Aren’t both left and right wing political views both represented at all levels of the spiral dynamic? I mean, are you saying that Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party (including the political views of Al Gore, Maxine Waters, Michale Moore, the fake news, Woody Allen and the “elites” of Hollywood, et. al.) are higher conscious than Trump and the Republicans? In other words shouldn’t each measure of criticism directed toward Trump, be balanced with some amount of critique towards the other political side? (Unless you are actually saying that the left wing is more advanced than the right wing. Are you? Please make this more clear. Granted that this debate in the US is a very 1D/2D political model, but take, for example, the issue of immigration when it comes to enforcing the existing law with respect to the borders, the political climate has become extremely polarized, has it not? I find it very hard to see the immigration debate in 3D/4D. I wonder if you can explicitly help me to see a middle ground on this issue? My own personal view is that the Democrats are behaving a lot like children who won’t accept any boundaries.
More generally, this begs the question of how level green or higher level conscious person (or group) should enforce personal boundaries? How is a life lacking personal (or group) boundaries (i.e. open borders) higher conscious?

Daniel says:

Thank you Leo. Although you have not yet illustrated green and yellow yet, I find that I am very much orange and resisting many aspects of green.

With that, resisting some aspects of green I believe may be a good thing. I believe that capitalism is good for our current time. Yes, it does focus on technology, and believes technology will solve our problems. Although this may not be true at a micro level, it is definitely true at a macro level.

Eventually capitalism should lead naturally to socialism. Once we remove the need for human labor to produce the basic necessities we need – food, travel, medicine and shelter – those things then become “worthless” to an extent. If it costs no labor to produce them, then no labor is required to receive them. If anyone can step into a pod or teleport to where they need to go or walk up to a replicator to get a meal (these items not being created, supported, or repaired by humans) then humans have no need to be “stuck” in orange and naturally progress to green or higher levels.

Today I see many progressives trying to “force” us into green thinking – and there are many aspects of green that are very good and useful today – but I believe some aspects still need to be rejected so we as a people can focus and maximize the good aspects of orange to accomplish the natural evolution to green.

Xain says:

Again, what is failed to be understood by everyone is that love, empathy, and compassion are all part of the dream. To truly see one must forsake all and stare at that which is most hostile to our awareness, one that we mask and call that mask “truth” or enlightenment. Buddhism didn’t see it for it still holds to compassion and empathy.

Existence is futile, if it is a creation it is by a madman who is either sadist or masochistic.

Charles King says:

We walk our path by destroying illusions so this post would fit anywhere. This is going to make me sound crazy because what I will say is unbelievable. You must see it yourself.
Nearly every picture (still or moving) presented by the mass media uses one face playing multiple roles.

Train your eye by comparing facial features one at a time from the same angle. Some are easy to see others it takes more experience. Google image the cast from any tv program or any movie. Do same with rock bands, beauty contests, supreme court, etc. Basically anything presented by the media. Start with still pictures. Moving pictures require you to look at a facial feature and remember what it looks like and the angle then wait for another character presented from the same angle.

Notice fake lighting and shadow and redness. These are used to change appearance. Notice the number of blurry and grainy pictures and faces presented from different angles. Notice how moving pictures rarely present two or more faces from the same angle at the same time. When you can’t compare features take note why because you will see it constantly.

I started comparing faces over 35 years ago and I have no doubts what I see. I can help you jump start this training with more things to look for if you like.

Xain says:

Thats called editing and movie magic and it is not a secret or groundbreaking, everyone knows about it. Your “training” is merely noticing what everyone else already knows.

If that isn’t what you are talking about then I call bunk, or more to the point seeing things that are not there.

Charles King says:

I don’t know what you are talking about. And I don’t think everybody or anybody knows what you are talking about. Are you a disinfo agent?

Charles King says:

This one face thing is so unbelievable that you must see it for yourself which is common for truth. Truth is often so unbelievable that most won’t bother to look for it. And it seems that might be your agenda.
The beauty of this is no debate is necessary unless you wish to create fog. The proof is right in front of your face. All one has to do is train your eye. Obviously you didn’t.

saurabh jadhav says:

Thanks man..!
I followed you since last two years, paid off..!!
Initially when I started to watch your episodes I was a teenager.
I am now in early adulthood. I invested abnormal time watching your videos.on Sundays literally I kept homework on hold and only work I did was just eat and watch your videos. I knew you are talking about something important but I can’t grasp it totally. In your one of the video(postmodernism I guess) you talked that the goal of actualized.org is the make you float while everyone is sinking in sand,I am floating now. Till now I watch your video because I was “helplessly dependent on them”.even there was no one around me who had same interest as me and able to answer the question satisfactorily. Ultimately I ended up with questioning absolutely everything and disbelief and loss of trust.I have shades of yellow and rest of green.I had hard time making friends.it was one way flow that okay I am in bunch of people they call me as friend but I don’t authentically feel them as friend.man..you have done great job..I am Indian ..and we have a ritual so to speak that whenever a man gets his first salary …we keep that in front of “god”..we have a place in home called “devara” in Marathi (I am Maharashtrian)a small “thing”(I can’t describes it in english,see photo on google)where different idols of different deities are kept and worshipped, so we keep the salary in front of them in devara.it is holiest place in house and it is believed that brings good fortune by doing so…I can’t pay you money now because I am student currently .but I will pay you the first salary as a respect for what value you have provided till now….I would have hugged you if you were front of me..actually this comment is replay for green memes video but I just could’t hold the feelings in…love you…carry on great job..!!

Xain says:

And now you have been brainwashed by Leo.

Xain says:

Charles, what you describe is something that is public knowledge. Any film or art student knows it, even lay people. You have essentially wasted 35 years. Its not a skill, its intro to film studies.

And debate is the only way to get at truth, those who fear it likely don’t care about truth but comfort. They don’t want their ideas challenged.

I have tested your claim and corroborated it with others. The fact is, you are wrong.

Charles King says:

You are telling us that what I say is known by all then you turn around and say I am wrong. And I know that you did not explore any of this. And I have little doubt that you are creating fog to keep the readers from exploring this themselves. I know what I am seeing and that allows me to know that you are blowing smoke and have a devious agenda. Like I said before no debate is necessary. The proof is right in front of our faces. And anyone who starts comparing faces will see enough within one to three hours to know what I am saying is true and at the same time will figure you out. Explain your movie magic that everyone knows about.

Charles King says:

The magicians who control humanity and the world don’t want this info out there. If enough people train their eye the system will collapse. Over the years I have encountered many a dsino agent and fake opposition conspiracy sites who desperately try to shut this info down. I recognized you before I brought this info here. You have that distinct stink of disinfo psyop agent all over you.

Xain says:

Yeah, judging by your comments you clearly seem to be unhinged and incoherent, which makes me even less inclined to believe you. You seem to be seeking validation for your ideas and attention rather than truth. Sorry bud, it don’t work that way.

Movie magic is just slang for all the technical editing, make up, filters, angles, etc that is done when printing photos for the public or filming in order to pretty things up. Obviously people don’t look as good as they do on media, everyone knows that. Even smart phones have the technology (and many use it). Your thing doesn’t seem to even be a thing, just delusion that you convinced yourself is truth. Considering you believe this for 35 years, there is little I can say to change your mind (if at all).

IF by some miracle you would be right, the system would not collapse. This would be that “so what” sort of thing. Nothing in your words suggest this to be a bad thing.

I think you are crazy. Not mystic crazy (which I respect) but psych ward crazy. I’m not gonna get caught up in your delusions.

Charles King says:

You are so disinfo psyop agent. Hope nobody gets caught up in your desperate attempt to keep them from investigating the one face thing. Or for that matter your desperate attemp to stop them from getting info Leo has gifted us.
If you were on the up and up you would shut your mouth and let everyone look into these things themselves. It is obvious that you don’t want truth exposed. Only a psyop agent would be as desperate as you.

Charles King says:

I will give you credit for being more intelligent and articulate than most psyop agents I have encountered. But your lame effort to discredit me with your explanation of movie magic doesn’t address anything I said about the one face thing. Anyone with half a brain would see that you are reaching for something that isn’t there. Your movie magic bs has nothing to do with what I am speaking. That alone makes you look foolish. Psyop agents always fail when they go to war against me on this issue because I have truth on my side. I recommend your boss send you somewhere else to disrupt the truth. You have been exposed and it is ugly.

Xain says:

I pity you if you think anyone who disagrees is some kind of agent. Again, you don’t want truth just an audience and affirmation. I have told you that your claim is false but you refuse to believe anything outside your circle. You have no evidence beyond “because I say so” and I and others have tested this claim and found nothing. I understand 35 years makes it hard to let go but part of truth is admitting you are wrong.

Being on the up is discussing with others incase one is blind to something. “self education” tends to have one wandering in blind spots. If you can’t handle debate or criticism then you don’t want truth and your ideas aren’t worth consideration.

Your words, and Leo’s videos, only appear insightful (or a gift) if you don’t question them. Even buddha said to question his words. His videos are lacking, and this is coming from someone who doesn’t know much.

Get out of your echo chamber.

Charles King says:

As a general rule low budget tv and movies and kids stuff will be the easiest to see. And this one face thing goes back to the beginning of the and movies with the older stuff often the easiest to see. Pay no attention to the bodies. And pay no attention to the size of the feature. Focus on the shape. Notice the same patterns of combinations used to change appearance. The combinations are usually hats, whiskers, glasses, hair style and color, and the nearly always faces presented at different angles. There are many other things they do but that combination is very common and you will start recognizing it. And even with experience there will usually be a couple or so faces that you are sure are the same face but you can’t make it because they have changed it too much. And again notice the fake shadow and lighting plus redness on the face. They change the shape of the face drastically but are obviously fake. When you see any of those on say a nose just look at the part of the nose without them and you will usually see the original nose. You will also notice this being used on ears especially the lobe. It will make the lobe bigger or smaller. In those cases the top half of the ear will match. But also look for it on the outer edge of the ear. They also use make the nostrils bigger or smaller. Google image the movie Back To The Future. There are three pictures of M, Foxx and the old professor standing beside each other faces pointed in the same direction. Start with shape of face. Match. Compare chins. Same. Noses. Same. Notice the only part of the old man’s face that they age is the eye area. And they they have his eyes wide open and wild eyed. But you can still see the eye area is the same. Even if you can’t make the eyes you still know you have a match after the entire rest of the faces match in shape. M. Foxx and the old man are the same face. When comparing faces the longer you look at them the more you see. Have you ever met a pair of identical twins and could not tell them apart then after knowing them and seeing them often over time you wonder how now they are easy to tell apart? Every time you saw them you noticed more detail. You started seeing the difference. Now when you are comparing media faces the same thing happens but instead you are noticing what is the same. Don’t give up. This is designed so we don’t see it. This stuff extends to the world stage and if enough people see it the game of enslavement and coontrol is over. Nothing is as it seems. Humanity is enslaved using mainly deception. And don’t let any disinfo psyop agent discourage you from looking.

Charles King says:

Another important tip I forgot. It helps to cover the entire faces except for the feature being compared. Other parts of the face influence the appearance of a single facial feature. This will often be dramatic when comparing eyes. The eyes will sometime look too different but when you cover the rest of the faces the sameness will jump out at you. When comparing eyes try to focus on the the white of the eye and what is contained within. The eye makeup will drastically change the appearance.

Charles King says:

Another tip. Often the most obvious comparison is the teeth. Don’t be fooled by color. Don’t only compare shape of each tooth but also compare the row of teeth. Some rows will be horse shoe shape and others will open wider. Another deception is bringing the bottom lip up to the bottom of the upper teeth making the teeth look shorter. Also, they will show only the bottom teeth on one character and only the top on another. With a moving picture you can often bust deception by watching the mouth move. This is really useful when comparing the talking heads as they puke the fake news. Yep, every set of talking heads I have compared are the same face. Btw, talking heads and political bodies are usually the most difficult to see. If you can’t see it wait and go back when your eye is better trained. And again don’t let some fast talking disinfo agent discourage you from looking and that includes looking at Leo’s teachings. This site is infested with one of those deceivers.

Xain says:

Just tested it, none of it is true.

for the back to the future image it’s called art style. All the images have red tones for flesh back then and of course characters from an art style are going to be similar.

PLease for the love of god take a course in the arts.

Charles King says:

You only mention the redness which is more disinfo bs. In fact with the back to the future images redness isn’t an issue. How about addressing the fact that every facial feature is the same shape. Remember the size of the feature is irrelevant. Focus on the shape. You must think people are really dumb. You got nothing but disinfo bs. This isn’t my first rodeo. Been dealing with your kind for years. You can’t let this go without making many attempts, all feeble btw, because the system can’t let this info get out.

Charles King says:

Another interesting area is demonstrations and marches. I can’t tell you to what extent they happen as I wasn’t there. But I assure you what the media presents is pure bs. Around maybe three years ago I started presenting my findings on fake opposition conspiracy sits and btw all the opposition conspiracy sites are fake. And they went nuts. They got desperate much like the disnfo agent we have here. This info panics them and they don’t allow it. But it was much easier to see what I am describing back then because the media was much more sloppy.They didn’t expect me to come along. Notice now that you almost can’t make any comparisons with what the media presents with the protests. When the media prevents you from making comparisons you know what’s up. But one place they fail is when they present their fake ass mug shots of those arrested. Yep same face. In fact much of the media news is made up out of thin air. Train your eye and you will save yourself much stress when reading about all the atrocities that are daily fare especially the constant astrocities against.children. The magicians inudate the media news with fake violence that didn’t happen. Little of it is true. The media news is mainly a purposeful mind fk.With a well trained eye you will know this.

Charles King says:

‘Truth Is Stranger Than Fiction’ is the greatest understatement ever.

Charles King says:

After you have a well trained eye I challenge you to find even one mass shooting that even happened and that includes all the fake ass school shootings. Our world views are based on media presented bs that didn’t happen and are mostly created in studios and are illusion and delusion.

Charles King says:

Having a well trained eye raises a ton of questions I can’t answer. For example every rock band I have looked at is one face playing multiple roles yet they do concerts. I can only point to the one one face thing and others will have to fill in the blanks.

Charles King says:

This world is controlled by some sort of magicians who are masters of deception. Never underestimate the enemy.

Charles King says:

After you have trained your eye well enough to start seeing some of this deception go to wellaware1.com for more of the story.

Charles King says:

Humanity must evolve our conscience or humans as we know them will cease to exist. The time is now if it’s not too late.

Charles King says:

I just have to also mention the lotteries. Goggle image lottery winners after you have trained your eye. First notice the low quality of the pictures. Why aren’t they crisp and sharp? Then compare facial features. The herd isn’t getting those big millions. It stays with the magicians.

Charles King says:

With a trained eye you are still left wondering how the magicians are able to pull of such unbelievable deception even using the same techniques on political bodies. First realize that the herd isn’t just asleep concerning the mind they are in a coma concerning the workings of the system. The magicians have controlled and enslaved the herds of humans for centuries. And their linage along with the linage of their minions continue to this day. There are generations of them in every walk of life and in all geographic locations right on down to the small towns. We are rubbing elbows with them daily without knowing who they are.

Charles King says:

When the picture is of a family you can’t prove to yourself that it is one face even though your experience comparing tells you that it almost certainly is. Families members will often look similar. With families you are left comparing dad and mom because we assume they aren’t blood related.

Charles King says:

The disinfo agent dogging this thread isn’t really talking to me. His desperate effort is to discourage the readers from investigating. He knows what I say is correct.

Charles King says:

Hey disinfo agent let the people be. Your excessive attempt to discredit me tells on you. Anyone training their eye would only lose a little time if I am wrong and would at the same time improve their ability to see detail.

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