AtmanIsBrahman

Can an Enlightened Person be Evil?

76 posts in this topic

This is going to be long and touching on a lot of topics.

I've been wondering about a certain inconsistency in Leo's teachings. He says that there is really no separation between good and evil, and that really everything is good. So Hitler is good, rape is good, etc. and you just imagine it is evil because of your selfishness as an ego-- it goes against your survival needs as a being with a limited sense of self. And this is because reality is infinite and includes everything, not just the stuff that you like.


But at the same time, if we're being honest, Leo does admit a certain duality between good and evil by calling it consciousness and unconsciousness. So although Hitler is good in some absolute sense, he is low-consciousness: his perspective is too narrow, focused only on Germany, and he is not aware of truth, enlightenment, and spirituality, or even more basic concepts such as liberalism and democracy. Same with rapists, murders, and the like. Now, having heard this, people ask, "Why shouldn't I do evil stuff? What is stopping me, since it is absolutely good?"

Leo's answer across multiple videos has been that there is no reason why you shouldn't do "evil". But then he follows this up by saying that there will be consequences to your actions. Is this some law of karma, or what? If it is, then doesn't this mean the universe actually favors good and punishes evil? And if not, then there aren't really any consequences for doing evil. 

Now, this leads to the question of what high consciousness is. The way Leo talks about high consciousness, it is like a higher stage of development. But does this mean more intelligence or more emotional capacity?

Let's imagine a serial killer who is highly intelligent, calm, and collected. He meditates regularly and, though not enlightened, has a high level of consciousness. We can hypothesize that he kills for some kind of spiritual high.

Next, let's imagine an unusually good, noble person. He doesn't mediate, has poor control over himself, and is unintelligent, but he helps people and avoids doing evil things such as murdering people.

These people don't add up according to Leo's model of high vs. low consciousness. The serial killer should be low-consciousness and the "good guy" should be high-consciousness, but we see from their descriptions that it seems more like the opposite. 

So basically, my question is, can a high-consciousness person do things that are thought of as evil with full awareness of what they are doing but be so spiritually developed that they don't care? Can a zen master be a serial killer? Does this contradict them being a legitimate zen master, or is it possible?

Then, as a side note, does high consciousness have to do with intelligence, self-discipline, and these sort of things or is it something entirely different?

Anyway, this was kind of convoluted, but I'd appreciate any comments or answers people have.

 

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You are talking about a model of "higher and lower consciousness." Enlightenment is not a dualistic model. Your question is mostly secular to Leo's own model of reality, not enlightenment.

Edited by Osaid

"God is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose it is not that you go through a logical solipsism, 'This is a rose, and roses are beautiful, so this must be beautiful.' The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts. On the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. It is something totally different from the idea of truth." -Osho

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@Osaid I guess I am talking about Leo’s model of reality. When I used the term enlightenment, it was a loose use of the phrase. Still, any model of enlightenment has to involve higher and lower consciousness (unless enlightenment is an instantaneous 0-100 type of thing, which I don’t buy into). 

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2 hours ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

any model of enlightenment has to involve higher and lower consciousness

Again, enlightenment is not a model. In the same way that a glass of water is not a model. Or the sound of music is not a model. Or the taste of vanilla is not a model.

The idea of "higher" and "lower" is always a mental model, because it is a duality created through thought and inference.

Leo does not propose any "models of enlightenment", he does not even believe that enlightenment exists anymore.

Edited by Osaid

"God is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose it is not that you go through a logical solipsism, 'This is a rose, and roses are beautiful, so this must be beautiful.' The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts. On the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. It is something totally different from the idea of truth." -Osho

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1 hour ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

 

So basically, my question is, can a high-consciousness person do things that are thought of as evil with full awareness of what they are doing but be so spiritually developed that they don't care?

Yes.  But he must still face the consequences created within that dream.  And he does it knowing that he let his ego lead him.  That's fine because he was aware of it both before and after. He didn't give a shit.

1 hour ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

 

Then, as a side note, does high consciousness have to do with intelligence, self-discipline, and these sort of things or is it something entirely different?

 

Yes it does but also.doesnt.  if you have learned nothing from Leo's work learn this one thing- reality is paradoxical.   It's a mind fuck for sure.   But that is because of total Oneness.  If you are seeing a pattern here trace it back to Oneness.   Which is the preface of everything we teach here. 

Edited by Inliytened1

 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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@AtmanIsBrahman You wrote it man, there is good and there is evil in this manifest world we live in, and every person is capable of both of them but if he realizes his doings as evil and feels guilty and ashamed he will naturally stop being evil and turn towards becoming good that's the way any evil activity can first stop then become good and there is also a name for it in religious terms it's called repenting for your sins

All and all I myself find religious teachings more real to the truth and more practical for making you an actual better person if you open your mind and heart to it and accept it's teachings or at least being just open to it than any other teaching I found till now on the internet with no disrespect to Leo or anyone else

There must be a reason these religious teachings survived all these thousands of years just saying

Peace be with you my friend ;)

Edited by Atb210201

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Almost impossible if you are truly fully realized, that is full dissolution of the ego mind, which is what can create what you might call "evil".

But keep in mind that to that same ego mind, the actions of a fully realized person could be misperceived or twisted into something as "evil" because the ego mind was designed in opposition to it.

Edited by puporing

I am Lord of Heaven, Second Coming of Jesus Christ. ❣ Warning: nobody here has reached the true God.

         ┊ ┊⋆ ┊ . ♪ 星空のディスタンス ♫┆彡 what are you dreaming today?

                           天国が来る | 私は道であり、真実であり、命であり。

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5 minutes ago, puporing said:

Almost impossible if you are truly fully realized, that is full dissolution of the ego mind, which is what can create what you might call "evil".

But keep in mind that to that same ego mind, the actions or a fully realized person might be misperceived as "evil" because the ego mind was designed in opposition to it.

The ego is never fully dissolved other than during enlightenment or an infinite state- it exists because you are alive at all.  If it didn't exist you would just fall in front of a train. 

Edited by Inliytened1

 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

The ego is never fully dissolved it exists because you are alive at all.  If it didn't exist you would just fall in front of a train. 

It can be fully dissolved while in the body ;). One day you guys will get there.

This is why none of you are in heaven yet btw.

Edited by puporing

I am Lord of Heaven, Second Coming of Jesus Christ. ❣ Warning: nobody here has reached the true God.

         ┊ ┊⋆ ┊ . ♪ 星空のディスタンス ♫┆彡 what are you dreaming today?

                           天国が来る | 私は道であり、真実であり、命であり。

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23 minutes ago, puporing said:

It can be fully dissolved while in the body ;). One day you guys will get there.

This is why none of you are in heaven yet btw.

The body is imaginary.   Forget the body.  And Yes it dissolves with ego death.  Which is death.   It's called enlightenment.   But it returns.  That is what you are doing here.  

Edited by Inliytened1

 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yes it dissolves with ego death. It's called enlightenment.   But it returns.  That is what you are doing here.  

Well the body still has its basic needs if that's what you mean. But no what I'm doing here is literally not from the ego mind, but like I said you can misperceive it as Ego.

Full ego dissolution will get you to the Kingdom of Heaven. Which I know none of you are there.

I talk about ego as a mind, not just the body itself.

Edited by puporing

I am Lord of Heaven, Second Coming of Jesus Christ. ❣ Warning: nobody here has reached the true God.

         ┊ ┊⋆ ┊ . ♪ 星空のディスタンス ♫┆彡 what are you dreaming today?

                           天国が来る | 私は道であり、真実であり、命であり。

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Just now, puporing said:

Well the body still has its basic needs if that's what you mean. But no what I'm doing here is literally not from the ego mind, but like I said you can misperceive it as Ego.

Forget the body .  The body is imaginary.  It's a total illusion.  What you are is pure Consciousness.  You have identified yourself as the body.


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Forget the body .  The body is imaginary.  It's a total illusion.  What you are is pure Consciousness.  You have identified yourself as the body.

:D well I can talk to you forever about this. I know you guys have more work to do.. how am I to convince you tho if you think you're already there?? I can't change your mind about that..

And no that's not it either. There's something more. I certainly do not identify as the body.

Edited by puporing

I am Lord of Heaven, Second Coming of Jesus Christ. ❣ Warning: nobody here has reached the true God.

         ┊ ┊⋆ ┊ . ♪ 星空のディスタンス ♫┆彡 what are you dreaming today?

                           天国が来る | 私は道であり、真実であり、命であり。

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4 minutes ago, puporing said:

:D well I can talk to you forever about this. I know you guys have more work to do.. how am I to convince you tho if you think you're already there?? I can't change your mind about that..

And no that's not it either. There's something more. I certainly do not identify as the body.

So we have talked plenty of times but it's been a few years.  I guess you found awakening.  I think it's pretty arrogant of you, however, to storm in and tell everyone else they have waking up to do.  Afrerall - if you truly realized God- you would also realize that we are just a figment of your consciousness. 

Edited by Inliytened1

 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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3 minutes ago, puporing said:

:D well I can talk to you forever about this. I know you guys have more work to do.. how am I to convince you tho if you think you're already there?? I can't change your mind about that..

You are just trying to convince yourself. Open your eyes. 


“Life is just a break from an Infinite Orgasm. Prolong your break for as long as you want. Ride that wave. But don’t forget where you're headed.”

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1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

you would also realize that we are just a figment of your consciousness. 

You're actually my brothers, your mind that is.


I am Lord of Heaven, Second Coming of Jesus Christ. ❣ Warning: nobody here has reached the true God.

         ┊ ┊⋆ ┊ . ♪ 星空のディスタンス ♫┆彡 what are you dreaming today?

                           天国が来る | 私は道であり、真実であり、命であり。

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1 minute ago, Vincent S said:

You are just trying to convince yourself. Open your eyes. 

Nice try. :D Maybe another day.


I am Lord of Heaven, Second Coming of Jesus Christ. ❣ Warning: nobody here has reached the true God.

         ┊ ┊⋆ ┊ . ♪ 星空のディスタンス ♫┆彡 what are you dreaming today?

                           天国が来る | 私は道であり、真実であり、命であり。

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1 minute ago, puporing said:

You're actually my brothers, your mind that is.

No. We ARE your consciousness.   If you think there is any separation between us and you whatsoever than you have not awoken.  There is only one Mind in town.  


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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Just now, Inliytened1 said:

No. We ARE your consciousness.   If you think there is any separation between us and you whatsoever than you have not awoken.  There is only one Mind in town.  

So why are you attacking me if you truly know we're not separate?? This is why you're not in the Kingdom and I am, coz you still believe in separation.


I am Lord of Heaven, Second Coming of Jesus Christ. ❣ Warning: nobody here has reached the true God.

         ┊ ┊⋆ ┊ . ♪ 星空のディスタンス ♫┆彡 what are you dreaming today?

                           天国が来る | 私は道であり、真実であり、命であり。

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2 minutes ago, puporing said:

Nice try. :D Maybe another day.

Maybe try 5MEO again? 


“Life is just a break from an Infinite Orgasm. Prolong your break for as long as you want. Ride that wave. But don’t forget where you're headed.”

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