Meditation And Jed Mckenna's Books And Staying Sane

[Leo Gura]

@Pinocchio What exactly are you claiming Jed understands that other enlightened people don't?

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Pinocchio said:

No argument from me on that front. The thing is that many people talk a good talk, and may even be genuinely talking from their experience, but that doesn't mean they're enlightened. That's another trap.

The list of people that I see as enlightened has changed dramatically over the years. Every now and then a new name makes it onto the list of someone who I didn't think was enlightened. I'm confident in saying that I'm not being narrow minded about this. But there are a lot more names that were once on the list and got removed later. Names of people that I was absolutely convinced were enlightened.

As a poignant example, this includes Shinzen Young. I have enormous respect for the man, and he is certainly a master meditator and many other things. I've been a big fan of his videos and his CD set and his work in general for several years. And I know I could never hope to compare to him, or to you for that matter. As far as I'm concerned you are both exemplary human beings. So please don't take it lightly when I say this. But Shinzen Young is not enlightened, he does not teach enlightenment, and he does not know what enlightenment is.

Somewhere on this forum you wrote that you consider your oldest video's your worst ones. You of all people must be very aware of the fact that your perception of things is bound to change a lot as you make progress on your path. So my point here is that it's pretty much guaranteed to change a lot more, unless you stagnate.

How could you tell if Shinzen Young is enlightened or not? If he claims to be enlightened, I certainly believe him as he seems to have firsthand experience. But ultimately, no one knows except for him. But what is it that makes you sure that he isn't? 

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Pinocchio said:

This is not about Jed, it's about what enlightenment is. The qualitative difference in ones everyday experience is a side effect, not a goal in itself. You can have this wonderful nondual awareness and still live in your interpretations. The goal in itself is to transition out of the dreamstate paradigm, U-Rex, and into the All-Is-Consciousness paradigm, C-Rex.

Yes, sure, I don't disagree.

But why would you assume Jed has a monopoly on that? And Shinzen is excluded?

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, sure, I don't disagree.

But why would you assume Jed has a monopoly on that? And Shinzen is excluded?

For whatever it's worth, I agree with Pinocchio. I don't think Shinzen is enlightened. Why? I don't really know. Call it baseless intuition if you want but something just seems off about him. Maybe I'll have a better answer when I'm further on the path.

[Leo Gura]

@aurum Be careful with drinking the Jed Kool-aid. Oldest spiritual trap in the book: make your spirituality superior and exclusive of all others.

[Ludwig]

Shinzen Young is - without any doubt - self-realized.

Yes, first realize what you call the All-Is-Consciousness paradigm. But it's not all about that. Living in delusion or fully awake - there isn't a difference. But one has to realize this for himself and than live freely in "both" worlds.

 

[Leo Gura]

@Pinocchio Okay, but I'm still not clear why you say Shinzen is not enlightened. I don't think you ever said why.

Let's also not forget that there are many stages of enlightenment. So you should clearly define your terms.

When I speak of enlightenment, I mean classic enlightenment: Kensho: dis-identification with the self as a body/mind, answering the What am I? question.

There are many stages beyond that and there is a transformation of the mind that occurs over the years as one learns to embody the enlightenment insights.

[Leo Gura]

Jed's claim that only a handful of people in the world are enlightened is ridiculous. It's a lot more than a handful. There are tens of thousands at least. Which is one clear sign to me that he hasn't done a truly broad survey of the various enlightened traditions. Or he simply has a penchant for drama.

His attack on spiritual people and meditation is simply false, and again seems to be part of his dramatic style.

The problem with Jed is that he doesn't really acknowledge any paths other than his own. Although he seems to be sort of fond of Zen. Which is ironic because Shinzen Young is from the Zen tradition. The Zen tradition alone has thousands of enlightened people in it.

[Emerald]

19 hours ago, Pinocchio said:

@Emerald Wilkins See my subsequent comments. Gotta run, be back later.

I read the comments from before, but I still didn't understand your reasoning. I have no dog in the race, one way or the other. I still think Shinzen is a great teacher. But I don't even know how somebody could determine someone else's enlightenment status. I'm just curious as to what you base that interpretation on.

[Jan Odvarko]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Jed's claim that only a handful of people in the world are enlightened is ridiculous. It's a lot more than a handful. There are tens of thousands at least. Which is one clear sign to me that he hasn't done a truly broad survey of the various enlightened traditions. Or he simply has a penchant for drama.

His attack on spiritual people and meditation is simply false, and again seems to be part of his dramatic style.

The problem with Jed is that he doesn't really acknowledge any paths other than his own. Although he seems to be sort of fond of Zen. Which is ironic because Shinzen Young is from the Zen tradition. The Zen tradition alone has thousands of enlightened people in it.

I think there might be at least two reasons why Jed claims there are so little enlightened people in the world:

1. He's talking about a very specific level of enlightenment.
2. He assumes the enlightened beings will be as open about it as he is, but in my opinion the vast majority of enlightened people are very reluctant to make this claim as they gain a certain level of humility along the path, or in some cases they simply don't feel a need to communicate it.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Jan Odvarko

[Leo Gura]

@Jan Odvarko Even the highest level, I would bet there are still thousands of people at.

[Leo Gura]

@Pinocchio I of course admit I could be wrong about many things, including my interpretations of enlightenment. The ideas I hold are ultimately just ideas and they will drop away with time as I do the work.

What you describe is not new to me. You're describing deeper and deeper aspects of enlightenment. I do talk about enlightenment sometimes as what it does for the robot, but of course in the absolute sense enlightenment has no value or purpose or meaning. And it is not an experience. Improving the human race is not an absolute thing, it's a relative thing. It might well be that the best thing for the universe is if the human race died out. Or more to the point, that it doesn't matter either way.

If you look at the 10 ox herding pictures, you see stage #8 where both Bull and self are transcended (blank empty picture). Which sorta seems like what you're describing. But then there are two more stages, where you come back into everyday life and society.

I don't know how far along the 10 ox herding pictures Shinzen Young is, I was merely stating that he has clearly seen through the self as body/mind. Where one develops to beyond that is difficult to gauge and I'm totally open to wherever the path leads.

If you want to define "enlightenment" as the ultimate stage, then you may, but that's not what the term traditionally means.

It sounds like what Jed's doing is defining enlightenment as the answering of the "What is existence?" question.

I always leave open the possibility that I am a blind guy groping the elephant. Give me some credit.

[Leo Gura]

@Pinocchio I agree, it's not a means to anything. Truth is just truth. So what? Life still goes on. There's ultimately nothing special or sacred about truth.

I don't really see what we're disagreeing about.

[Leo Gura]

@Pinocchio Why is meditation insufficient to discover the true nature of reality? The difference between meditation and self-inquiry is minimal.

How can you be so sure meditation is a dead end? Seems like you'd have to do 20 to 40 years of meditation to know for sure.

[Leo Gura]

@Pinocchio So then what is the best method you've discovered to attain the ultimate, deepest truth?

[Leo Gura]

@Pinocchio Well, lucky for Leo's ego, it likes the bitter taste of truth!

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Pinocchio said:

For me this is not about methods, it's about being clear on your objective. Everything else follows from that. This is why Jed McKenna stresses "purity of intent". If you're after lightening the load, and emotional intelligence, and pain management, and blissful experience, and cultivating stuff, then that's probably what you'll get. Now I'm not saying those are mutually exclusive with truth (wink nudge) but if truth is not first and foremost on your list of priorities then you probably won't find it. Because then you've already stopped questioning.

Yes this is on point. I didn't appreciate the whole "purity of intent" thing in till fairly recently.

If you don't declare your sole mission as figuring out TRUTHFULLY just what the fuck is going on with all "this", it doesn't seem to happen. The ego is a shapeshifter and can manifest as just about anything. It can even manifest as someone who acts selfless and without ego. But as an illusion, the one thing ego can't be is True. So when you declare you're heading for truth and damn the consequences, that is the one thing the ego can't seem to survive.

 

Declare sincere intent for finding out what is true. The "universe" will do the rest.

 

 

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Leo Gura Do you think that valuing Truth comes when you fulfill basic needs first? Or you are born with the gift of wanting to know Truth? I actually value self mastery and development, How can I reconcile it and actually value It?

[Leo Gura]

@jcgiusto For me personally, truth has always been one of my highest values. Not sure why. I was surprised to learn as I went through life that this isn't the case for most people. Frankly it kinda baffles me why more people don't care about truth.

No, I don't think it will come after fulfilling basic needs. You just have to want to know it now. It's the truth! How could you not want to know it?

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Leo Gura i would like to know it since its like knowing that Santa is not real but you are still waiting for him.. It is just that truth is not on my highests values.