r0ckyreed

Maybe Legalizing Drugs Is Not Such A Good Idea?

67 posts in this topic

I recently went to Oregon in the past month. I wanted to say that Portland was bittersweet with the extreme wealth and extreme homelessness. I have never before seen such a place with no middle class before. I have learned that you can have the right intentions and goals, but if your strategy and execution aren't good in achieving that goal, then the right intention becomes the wrong intention. I will summarize the articles on Oregon's decriminalization issue both pros and cons of decriminalization, and then I will offer my own analysis.

Summary of Articles On The Issue:

https://www.cato.org/blog/oregons-drug-decriminalization-needs-go-further#:~:text=5%2C400 fewer people were arrested,disparities in arrests and convictions.

So, in this article, the author advocates that decriminalization is not the final step. Just because all drugs are decriminalized does not mean they are safe to utilize. They advocate for legalization and sale of drugs so that way they can be purchased in a safe environment, whereas purchasing drugs through the Black Market comes at a risk of it being laced with fentanyl and other potent drugs. They state that fentanyl is very potent drug that is spreading rapidly and causing most deaths in the US. Oregon could counter this by legalizing drugs and having more regulation with store distribution.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/18/1007022652/oregons-pioneering-drug-decriminalization-experiment-is-now-facing-the-hard-test

In the NPR article, they talk about how the idea of decriminalization is nice but the implementation of measure 110 has not been effective. Measure 110 allows all drugs to be decriminalized, which means that if caught using drugs, the person will receive just a $100 citation that they can get revoked if they call a rehabilitation program. The issue that they discuss here is that law enforcement is facing more challenges with enforcement. They will give a $100 fine, but it makes it harder to catch Black Market dealers to lower unregulated drug distribution. The article also mentions that the majority of people who get caught with highly potent drugs pay the fine and continue to use. The measure 110 is not effective in actually decreasing substance use disorder issues. The article states that most people who call never follow through with rehab, and the punishment of $100 citation is not an incentive to reduce the distribution and consumption of drugs.

Analysis:

Based off of my experience being in Oregon, seeing the measure 110 in real life, as well as reading the articles. I am hesitant to think that Oregon's move to decriminalize drugs is a good thing. We are seeing a rise in fentanyl distribution and overdoses. The Measure 110 sounds like a great idea to help decrease racial/ethnic incarceration, etc. The issue is that the Measure does nothing and provides no incentive for people to change.

Even Marijuana used in adolescence and early adulthood has been found to reduce gray matter in the brain, with some parts never growing it back. The idea of legalizing drugs seems the same as normalizing drugs. But the first article did mention that prohibition does nothing to improve the situation, it just makes it worse because more people will rebel and use drugs unsupervised and unregulated, where if it was legalized, then drugs could be supervised and regulated to not be laced with fentanyl or other drugs.

The issue I have is that fentanyl is on the rise and overdoses on it are rising to the most leading cause of death in adolescents and young adults in the US. It sounds nice to have drugs legalized to have them regulated and supervised, but the issue that I have is like marijuana, it makes it harder to crack down on the Black Market. In addition, more people I feel like are using marijuana now because it is legalized and many are using it without a medical card. With the prohibition of alcohol to now the legalization of it, alcohol still remains the highest drug related to crime (i.e., drunk driving, intoxication, homicide, assault/battery, etc.). And decriminalizing alcohol and marijuana and other drugs does not eliminate the issues associated with them. If we no longer call intoxication and drunk driving a crime, it will still be a problem. If we no longer call using fentanyl a crime, it will continue to be a problem.

The distribution of fentanyl and normalization of marijuana I think is a huge issue that will impact many generations going forward. Gen Z is already unmotivated, depressed, isolated, full of incels, conspiracy theories, etc. Add legalizing drugs on top of that and you get a majority of the population someday where all drugs are normalized and people are not using them in mature ways. Most people will use drugs not for enlightenment but for escapism.

The majority of the population is not mature enough for psychedelics because developmentally, they are not existentially interested nor are their psychological and physical needs met. Anyways, these are my thoughts on this for now. I honestly go back and forth, but with the rise of fentanyl in my state, I believe there needs to be more of a crack down. People are behavioral beings. We operate off of rewards and punishments. It would be interesting to see the legalization of all drugs, but like witnessed with Oregon's Measure 110, ideas may sound good, but when executed, they fail.

What are your thoughts? :) 

Edited by r0ckyreed

“Our most valuable resource is not time, but rather it is consciousness itself. Consciousness is the basis for everything, and without it, there could be no time and no resource possible. It is only through consciousness and its cultivation that one’s passions, one’s focus, one’s curiosity, one’s time, and one’s capacity to love can be actualized and lived to the fullest.” - r0ckyreed

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ONLY legalizing isn't going to solve the problem.

And decriminalization isn't the same as legalizing.

Decriminalization = you can't be arrested for possessing a drug and consuming it, but you can't sell it.

Which is a first step. Arresting someone for possessing/using drugs, ANY drugs is dumb as fuck.

Legalizing = You can even sell it.

This is better, promotes real business, better products, creates jobs, promotes the economy, takes money from drug cartels, and gives to the government and civilians.

Regulamentation is the next step, you create rules for people to sell and consume t.

For drugs like weed, it is cool to let mostly the "market" solve itself.

But with cocaine, heroin, meth, MDMA, DMT and LSD, it should be as pure as possible, so big pharma would handle most of it, possibly with doctors and social/health professionals watching for the users.

 

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I don’t think our healthcare industry is ready for that kind of change. I don’t think the majority of people are either.


“Our most valuable resource is not time, but rather it is consciousness itself. Consciousness is the basis for everything, and without it, there could be no time and no resource possible. It is only through consciousness and its cultivation that one’s passions, one’s focus, one’s curiosity, one’s time, and one’s capacity to love can be actualized and lived to the fullest.” - r0ckyreed

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6 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

I don’t think our healthcare industry is ready for that kind of change.

What change? Selling drugs? They literally do that already.

6 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

I don’t think the majority of people are either.

Well, people do drugs since forever, they only would change their dealer for a more trustworthy one, and everyone wins.

 

 

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The fentanyl problem cannot be solved in any way other than by allowing affordable legal sales of drugs like heroin and cocaine.

Decriminalization was never suposed to solve the fentanyl problem. Why would it?

Of course decriminalization will not reduce addiction rates.

To really solve the drug problem requires eliminating the black market by selling all the worst drugs in pure form at affordable prices at the pharmacy. Which is way too radical for most politicians to enact.

Decrminalization is good, but it's merely a half-measure. It won't solve the larger drug problem. The real solution is to eliminate the black market through pharmacy sales. And then you gotta invest the drug war resources into rehab clinics and mental health.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Leo Gura I think selling cocaine at the pharmacy is a terrible idea.


"Not believing your own thoughts, you’re free from the primal desire: the thought that reality should be different than it is. You realise the wordless, the unthinkable. You understand that any mystery is only what you yourself have created. In fact, there’s no mystery. Everything is as clear as day. It’s simple, because there really isn’t anything. There’s only the story appearing now. And not even that.” — Byron Katie

 

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31 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Why?

A LOT MORE people would become addicted to cocaine. If you think there’s an addiction problem now, wait till you see half the country addicted to it. The entire country will come to a standstill. 


"Not believing your own thoughts, you’re free from the primal desire: the thought that reality should be different than it is. You realise the wordless, the unthinkable. You understand that any mystery is only what you yourself have created. In fact, there’s no mystery. Everything is as clear as day. It’s simple, because there really isn’t anything. There’s only the story appearing now. And not even that.” — Byron Katie

 

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4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Decrminalization is good, but it's merely a half-measure. It won't solve the larger drug problem. The real solution is to eliminate the black market through pharmacy sales. And then you gotta invest the drug war resources into rehab clinics and mental health.

I agree. I am an existential therapist and see the effects of drugs on people, as well as the limits of health care resources.

I am not sure what my stance is on this issue. It all sounds good to legalize it all but am skeptical.

Isn’t that logic you used the same that right wingers use to justify having guns? They say it’s so easy to get them from black market, so we might as well make them available to all. I am not against that, I just think drugs and guns need regulation. Some people could be buying drugs and not understand the risks in the same way people buy processed foods and don’t understand the risks. We cannot assume that people will give much thought and research into their decision-making nor make the best choices. That’s the cost of freedom.

Edited by r0ckyreed

“Our most valuable resource is not time, but rather it is consciousness itself. Consciousness is the basis for everything, and without it, there could be no time and no resource possible. It is only through consciousness and its cultivation that one’s passions, one’s focus, one’s curiosity, one’s time, and one’s capacity to love can be actualized and lived to the fullest.” - r0ckyreed

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2 hours ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura I think selling cocaine at the pharmacy is a terrible idea.

Well then, keep waging that endless war on drugs. How's that workin out?

54 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Isn’t that logic you used the same that right wingers use to justify having guns? They say it’s so easy to get them from black market, so we might as well make them available to all. I am not against that, I just think drugs and guns need regulation. 

But no one is suggesting outlawing guns. You are allowed to buy a gun just like buying pills at the pharmacy.

The pharmacy is regulated.

Also, the big difference is that black market guns don't explode in your face the way fentanyl-laced heroin does. So taking drugs off the black market can solve a problem that guns don't have.

Deaths from pure heroin and cocaine are very rare. People can use it for years without dying if it's pure. So ensuring purity is a big piece of this puzzle. This would be easy for pharmacies to do.

Pharmacies could also offer ibogaine, which nukes all opioid addiction at the brain-receptor level. So we already have a cure for opioid addiction. It's just currently illegal.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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2 hours ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura I think selling cocaine at the pharmacy is a terrible idea.

I don´t want to put any personal bias. I don´t know where you live, but I live in Mexico. It´s not like I live in warzone, but If we could just build a good infrastructure without worrying about gang wars... That would be so great for our country and it´s not like the people would all be coked out their mind. As Leo said, pure Heroin and pure Cocaine isn´t that bad. There´s a reason, why rich people can snort it all day without being on the bring of dying and living a "normal" life, while homeless people suffer the most from that...

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@r0ckyreed There is a difference between what Oregan did, which was badly planned and executed, and say what Portugal did. This is why systems thinking is important and not just “legalization good” or “legalization bad”

 

 


 "Unburdened and Becoming" - Bon Iver

                            ◭"89"

                  

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Well then, keep waging that endless war on drugs. How's that workin out?

But no one is suggesting outlawing guns. You are allowed to buy a gun just like buying pills at the pharmacy.

The pharmacy is regulated.

Also, the big difference is that black market guns don't explode in your face the way fentanyl-laced heroin does. So taking drugs off the black market can solve a problem that guns don't have.

Deaths from pure heroin and cocaine are very rare. People can use it for years without dying if it's pure. So ensuring purity is a big piece of this puzzle. This would be easy for pharmacies to do.

Pharmacies could also offer ibogaine, which nukes all opioid addiction at the brain-receptor level. So we already have a cure for opioid addiction. It's just currently illegal.

Good points. Glad I made a thread about it.

What do you think Oregon should do differently? Portugal makes it where they can go to rehab, but if they do not go, then they will be charged with disobedience and will be moved to criminal system. All of these treatment facilities in Portugal are free so I am not sure how they are able to do that. 

The treatment facilities and healthcare in America are messed up. I am not sure what would fix it. They should have free counseling and rehab services for all. There is a high demand for those services though too, so I can see how it can be difficult.

Edited by r0ckyreed

“Our most valuable resource is not time, but rather it is consciousness itself. Consciousness is the basis for everything, and without it, there could be no time and no resource possible. It is only through consciousness and its cultivation that one’s passions, one’s focus, one’s curiosity, one’s time, and one’s capacity to love can be actualized and lived to the fullest.” - r0ckyreed

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And don’t forget, legal propaganda also kills!

 


I tried to catch some fog earlier. I mist.

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3 hours ago, How to be wise said:

A LOT MORE people would become addicted to cocaine. If you think there’s an addiction problem now, wait till you see half the country addicted to it. The entire country will come to a standstill. 

Sell with prescriptions, like lots of medication is.

Invest in education, rehab centers, inform people the dangers and how to do harm reduction.

Also, i bet if you actually get the pure stuff, without all the garbage drug dealers put to increase profits, the actual drug is much less dangerous.

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Portugal successfully stopped cartels and drug dealers from making money by making themselves the drug dealer and offering centers to safely take them with a doctor on hand and offer treatment for drug abuse in the same place.  

If America does the same they would end the drug wars in Mexico, then the cartels would not make anymore money and other things like the border crisis would lesson.  
A majority of the people staying in America illegally are the people that fly to Mexico from countries like India, China.  They fly there, get a entry Visa to US thru someone that is paid off within the government by the cartel.  Once they enter America, they stay there indefinitely until they get caught.

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2 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

What do you think Oregon should do differently?

For now we are taking baby steps. The first step is to decriminalize across the country. Then we can move onto more robust programs. The core issue is the lack of political will and the stigma. Which requires slow cultural evolution, similar to gay rights.

I don't know the details of Portugal's system. That requires reaearch, but it's really an empirical matter. We need to look at the social science of what works best. Basically the politicians need to say: "Here's a blank check, implement whatever system reduces harm and addiction the most according to the science."

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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If all drugs became legalized, then wouldn't a lot more people in our country be encouraged to take heroine, cocaine, fentanyl, and many other harmful drugs?

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@Hardkill @Hardkill not really I think.  Addiction is a symptom of mental ill ess. The problem with abusing drugs have mostly mental ill people. So the most people will not use it anyway, they are not even interested in trying even once

By the way, many mental ill right now abuse alcohol, one of the most destoying drug. 

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