Can toxic green lead us back to blue (Islamic Europe)?

[Sucuk Ekmek]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   From camels, to wheeled vehicles and planes, from their own economic system(mercantile and gift economy and physical trades) to debt economy, from their own epistemic system? to 'just ask google'...Is this all really progress? 

 

This is ''progress'' in terms of western culture.

 

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   Are they developing too fast, technological advancement too faster than human and cultural development?

  

Yeah, collectively they are progressing so fast because this is what you have to do if you want to stay competitive.  Collectively you just can't transform from blue to orange in let's say in 20 years, it takes 100 years at least. 

 

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   How is technological systems taking care of everything and everyone, a great SD stage lifter? Which group and people, and which things are benefiting?

 

 Let me put this way our technological systems only lifting stage blue to orange.  In todays world it's a very hard survive out there with blue values you need to integrate into technological systems. Which is orange. Good luck out there with your blue values. From this emerge I would say %1 benefiting and rest losing or barely staying aboard. The ones benefiting are the ones owning stuff. You just can't do your own thing and thrive, you must integrate into technological systems somehow.

Technological systems are taking care of you by making you a civil servant or just a servant.

 

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   Which many things changed?  

From the perspective of an elder (muslim) man?

Many... for example communcation to just name a one. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Sucuk Ekmek

[abundance]

3 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@abundance

   Do you believe that these people need to be income worthy before starting a family?

What is in your opinion considered income worthy? 

If you're asking if there should income requirements before starting a family then absolutely not. In the long run that will create more problems than you think it will solve. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by abundance

[Shawn Philips]

On 25/5/2023 at 0:56 PM, abundance said:

European birth rates aren't declining because of toxic green values. Lol. If you want to look at it through the lens of spiral dynamics, they're declining due to the excesses of stage orange. All industrialized nations are seeing declines in birthrates due to capitalism and the trajectory of economic growth, which causes people to have less time and incentive to have children. And if you want to go even deeper pollution play factor as well. Its causing infertility in many western countries. Which is ultimately a function of unregulated capitalism (orange in excess). 

I guarantee if you take away all the immigrants in Europe and birthrates will still be on the decline. 

In Europe locals work full time and dont have kids because dont have time and money. In Europe most immigrants live off welfare government+ big family payment, have plenty of time to raise kids. South americans immigrands ten to be more hardworking, but muslims are the laziest.

[Danioover9000]

@abundance

On 2023-05-25 at 9:23 PM, abundance said:

What is in your opinion considered income worthy? 

If you're asking if there should income requirements before starting a family then absolutely not. In the long run that will create more problems than you think it will solve. 

   My opinion, and just my figment of imagination, income worthiness is basic income coverage and money basics, that cover each member of the family and their basic needs. Not factoring insurances or social coverages.

   Why shouldn't there be no income requirements before starting a family? Do you know that as a parent you'll be spending stuff for the baby like baby foods, diapers, maybe milk formula, baby toys, baby clothes, baby room stuff, and not just limited to income but time and energy spent raising a baby? And similarly after they become toddlers and adolescent?  After they get diplomas and get their own lives maybe the income spent will be less. but until they become independent and they still dependent on family, parents, the father and mother, so wouldn't be a good idea to set some income requirements for starting a family? 

[MarkKol]

More stage blue people can move into Europe yes, but a stage green person regressing back to blue is highly highly unlikely if not, border line impossible.

[Hatfort]

You got it wrong, man. Green is not in power in Europe.

There is a big problem for European local youth, orange state has rampaged with housing, and job conditions and wages are shit because unchecked orange as well, that's why locals are not having kids or having them very late. Immigrants are coming, they are usually more easily exploited, that's the truth. In any case, there's no way of Europe becoming Islamic, not even close. The greener the region, the better the coexistence and integration. Even if some come from red or blue places, they adapt well if you let them.

Do you want local people to have kids? Go green, and improve living conditions for youth. House and job access at the very least.

[abundance]

11 hours ago, Shawn Philips said:

In Europe locals work full time and dont have kids because dont have time and money. In Europe most immigrants live off welfare government+ big family payment, have plenty of time to raise kids. South americans immigrands ten to be more hardworking, but muslims are the laziest.

You're generalizing. Muslims are very hardworking. Immigrants may be more dependent on welfare because they are on average poorer.

[koops]

@Hatfort

As I said earlier.

Immigrants, who are generally less wealthy, living in this 'orange' countries, are having more babies than local people.

Is not just about the money/living conditions.

Green values are a significant factor for people not wanting children.

12 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Even if some come from red or blue places, they adapt well if you let them.

Do you want local people to have kids? Go green, and improve living conditions for youth. House and job access at the very least.

Can people in red/blue adapt to an orange/green society?

I highly doubt it.

The immigrants that adapt better are the ones more developed (blue-orange) and the ones who speak the language.

 

[koops]

16 hours ago, MarkKol said:

More stage blue people can move into Europe yes, but a stage green person regressing back to blue is highly highly unlikely if not, border line impossible.

I ment as a society.

As I said, local population are declining, while islamic population are increasing and getting into power political positions.

In 50-100 years can some woman/gay/trans rights go back as western values decline and islamic go up?

That was my concern.

[MarkKol]

2 hours ago, koops said:

I ment as a society.

As I said, local population are declining, while islamic population are increasing and getting into power political positions.

In 50-100 years can some woman/gay/trans rights go back as western values decline and islamic go up?

That was my concern.

Very unlikely, High up Europe is already very developed. I think that the EU is just going to get bigger as an result.

Women’s rights a definitely not going back, that’s silly. Europe is not even the first candidate for that. I reckon more people are moving into the US than the entire European union right now.

Take in the fact how fragmented and compartmentalized Europe is. Every way you turn there’s a different language and a different culture. 

The union is basically just a customs union and not much more. It’ll be fine, regression is not a popular topic in history.

Edited May 28, 2023 by MarkKol

[kever]

This is something I thought about too. As a college student of social work in Antwerp (one of the most ethnically diverse cities ever), it's sometimes hard to reconcile our stage green values with conservative immigrant values and views. 

Two weeks ago, a fellow student told me how it's so backwards that we have to respect and tolerate stuff like men from a muslim minority refusing to sit with women at the same table for a social project or something.. While it would be absolutely 'not done' if a student thought like that as it's against the stage green values we get taught in college. 

So while Europe becomes more diverse, newcomers and their offspring do get exposed to living in a stage orange/green society and therefore will grow out of stage blue more easily I think. So maybe there won't be such a 'value regression' as you may fear. 

This is something I observed with my fellow students coming from Morocco, Nigeria, Cabo Verde... When they talk about their parents, they are really religious and strict and all, while they themselves are way more focused on getting da mony etc. In other words stage orange (while students with no immigration background tend to be more green it seemed, but the sample I base this on is most probably not representative of the whole population)

[UnlovingGod]

That's just plain conspiracy thinking, Romans had their religion, then they were christians and collapsed... That's just time and evolution... Even the germanic people migrated to arabic countries, when the huns invaded their lands. The turks come from Mongolia and live now in Turkey. The US is a nation made out of immigrants. And we can dial back and see, how we all migrated from africa. We should really care less about the people migrating and care more about the root causes.

If we as the west fight against the poverty and conflicts in islamic countries, we and them would benefit in ways we cant imagine...

I mean if you take like a spiritual lense and go really meta, it is just a reaction to western imperialism back then and interventions now...

Please understand, that politics is inherently dualistic.

And that islam is blue is a really reductionistic way of looking at things. I can tell you by experience, that we have WAY more assumptions and double standards about immigrants, than we notice. I don't want to elaborate this, as I'm myself was born with an immigrant heritage in Germany, but all those stupid talk, you give here, just worsens the situation for every party. Look inwards before you judge outwards.

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by UnlovingGod

[Juressic]

On 5/28/2023 at 2:37 PM, koops said:

@Hatfort

As I said earlier.

Immigrants, who are generally less wealthy, living in this 'orange' countries, are having more babies than local people.

Is not just about the money/living conditions.

Green values are a significant factor for people not wanting children.

Can people in red/blue adapt to an orange/green society?

I highly doubt it.

The immigrants that adapt better are the ones more developed (blue-orange) and the ones who speak the language.

 

The problem is that those immigrants don't care about their children, they are totally irresponsible following blindly what their culture told them. 
They only live day by day without much thought about what could happen tomorrow, that is how they are contributing to suffering for themselves and the whole society.

They can adapt to Orange society because Orange society is looking at them as their slaves for dirty jobs. But the problem that Orange society doesn't see is the fact that they will overtake the power and pull society from ORANGE into BLUE. 
That is what Angela Merkel did, she openly called all immigrants from the middle east to join Germany, and statistics say that Germany will become a Muslim country in the next 30 years. 

Green people don't want to make kids early, because they know what it takes and how much responsibility it requires, so they always procrastinate it.
But I think that solution is, in order to encourage Green people to have kids,  to give them free kindergarten services 24/7. Because children should basically live in healthy communities, not with their toxic parents.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Juressic

[koops]

Here you go: