Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
ryandesreu

Objectivity and Political Commentary

7 posts in this topic

I can see what he means by this and mostly agree. I'm wondering what an honest opposition response to this would be. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do republicans indeed build their platform around policies which can unambiguously be interpreted as authoritarianism, bigotry, suppressing freedom of speech etc? Are those things really at the core of their platform, and not some tangential stuff, as is often the case because politics is the art of compromise? Or maybe that is something radical trumpists are proposing, and not republicans at large?.. Genuinely curious, as a non-american. Can someone explain? 

Edited by WeCome1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty much everything Trump says the other Rs follow from what I see. At least in the past. Maybe that'll change as Donald's popularity decreases. I think Beau may be exaggerating some here but not a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you ask, 

13 hours ago, ryandesreu said:

I'm wondering what an honest opposition response to this would be. 

So, one way to go about it would be to pick apart his argument and see if it breaks somewhere - either logically, or factually.

Beau argues that

1) There is such thing as objectivity, and, moreover, there are things which any reasonable person would agree are objectively bad. He does not define "bad", but I suppose he wouldn't argue much if we understand it to mean "practical", "what works". So far so good.

2) There are 5 concepts/values that are so good, necessary and practical to have for a civilized society, that attacking them on purpose is "objectively bad". Those 5 concepts are: 1) Ideological flexibility, Open-mindedness, 2) Non-authoritarianism (he does not define it precisely, so here is a potential way to attack his argument), 3) The Rule of Law (everyone must be equal before the law), 4) Free Speech (and government not intervening with it), and 5) Separation of State from Church/Faith (government shall not regulate or discriminate based on faith/religion/spirituality). Fair enough. I mean, one could argue against the "absoluteness" of those 5 concepts: cases can be made against all 5 in times of war (see what Ukraine is doing now, for example), but they are clearly superior to their absence/alternatives in a civilized and politically stable society.

3) Only one party (Republican, I'm assuming - but he does not state it explicitly in this video) has built their platform on denying all 5 of those values and arguing for their opposites: 1) Bigotry, 2) Authoritarianism, 3) Unequal representation before law, 4) Intervening with free speech and 5) Discrimination on the basis of spiritual beliefs. To "build their platform" (as opposed to "tangentially mentions") is a strong formulation that warrants concrete (and multiple!) examples. So, someone who understands what the core republican message - written in some official documents, not shouted from tribunes or tweeted by Trump! - could perhaps provide those examples, for all 5 values. This would be some strong evidence in support of Beau's claims. Although the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence, of course - but he must make his point based on at least some evidence, so shouldn't be that hard to find for someone familiar with the topic?

4) Not both parties deserve equal treatment, since only one of them supports "civilized" values, while the other aims to erode the very fabric of civilization. Practically speaking, if that is indeed true - then yes. However, this whole claim reeks of bias and strawman. Again, I don't know jack about the topic - but once part 3) is clear, we can judge part 4) better.

So yeah. Any takers?

P.S. Overall, a good argument should provide a thesis, its logical explanation, and evidence. Beau's argument provides no evidence and leaves the burden of proof on us. Therefore, I would argue that it is less of an argument and more of a slogan.

Edited by WeCome1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@WeCome1

3 hours ago, WeCome1 said:

Well, you ask, 

So, one way to go about it would be to pick apart his argument and see if it breaks somewhere - either logically, or factually.

Beau argues that

1) There is such thing as objectivity, and, moreover, there are things which any reasonable person would agree are objectively bad. He does not define "bad", but I suppose he wouldn't argue much if we understand it to mean "practical", "what works". So far so good.

2) There are 5 concepts/values that are so good, necessary and practical to have for a civilized society, that attacking them on purpose is "objectively bad". Those 5 concepts are: 1) Ideological flexibility, Open-mindedness, 2) Non-authoritarianism (he does not define it precisely, so here is a potential way to attack his argument), 3) The Rule of Law (everyone must be equal before the law), 4) Free Speech (and government not intervening with it), and 5) Separation of State from Church/Faith (government shall not regulate or discriminate based on faith/religion/spirituality). Fair enough. I mean, one could argue against the "absoluteness" of those 5 concepts: cases can be made against all 5 in times of war (see what Ukraine is doing now, for example), but they are clearly superior to their absence/alternatives in a civilized and politically stable society.

3) Only one party (Republican, I'm assuming - but he does not state it explicitly in this video) has built their platform on denying all 5 of those values and arguing for their opposites: 1) Bigotry, 2) Authoritarianism, 3) Unequal representation before law, 4) Intervening with free speech and 5) Discrimination on the basis of spiritual beliefs. To "build their platform" (as opposed to "tangentially mentions") is a strong formulation that warrants concrete (and multiple!) examples. So, someone who understands what the core republican message - written in some official documents, not shouted from tribunes or tweeted by Trump! - could perhaps provide those examples, for all 5 values. This would be some strong evidence in support of Beau's claims. Although the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence, of course - but he must make his point based on at least some evidence, so shouldn't be that hard to find for someone familiar with the topic?

4) Not both parties deserve equal treatment, since only one of them supports "civilized" values, while the other aims to erode the very fabric of civilization. Practically speaking, if that is indeed true - then yes. However, this whole claim reeks of bias and strawman. Again, I don't know jack about the topic - but once part 3) is clear, we can judge part 4) better.

So yeah. Any takers?

P.S. Overall, a good argument should provide a thesis, its logical explanation, and evidence. Beau's argument provides no evidence and leaves the burden of proof on us. Therefore, I would argue that it is less of an argument and more of a slogan.

   The last point thought, I think it may be implicit, but one justification for why a person would provide little to no evidence for their audience is to loosely encourage critical thinking, and researching for themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the systematic approach to your response. Much appreciated.

I do remember in a past episode Beau saying that he will sometimes leave out evidence to encourage independent research. Agreed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ryandesreu

3 hours ago, ryandesreu said:

I like the systematic approach to your response. Much appreciated.

I do remember in a past episode Beau saying that he will sometimes leave out evidence to encourage independent research. Agreed.

   I haven't watch Beau often, only a few times, and am glad I assumed accurately that he does intentionally leave his arguments loose to let the viewer research themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0