Is ignorance just an appearance?

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

When I think of enlightenment I think about the end of ignorance. But is that just an appearance? We look at gurus and "spiritual" people and what they say and we think "Well I must be ignorant, because if I wasn't then I'd be acting more like person x or I'd be behaving more lovingly or I'd be doing this instead of that" and so on and so on. But isn't that just aesthetics? I feel like most of what we call spirituality and enlightenment is just aesthetics. People see gurus and so called "enlightened people" and think that they have to be more like them. And you can't possibly be awake unless conditions x, y and z are met. If you eat meat you can't be enlightened. If you perceive separation you can't be enlightened.

But is that just how deep this delusion of ignorance goes? Is this game of transcending ignorance that we play in order to remain ignorant the real "delusion"? Is the believe that I'm not awake right now (as if awakening were other than right here right now) what's actually keeping me from awakening? See this is what I mean. "This can't be awakening happening right NOW, because belief x still arises and if I was awake that couldn't be the case." 

I don't even know what the word "awakening" refers to, so how would I be able to tell if this right here wasn't what awakening felt like? I expect that it can't be. Because this can't be it. RIGHT!? That's what I'd like to tell myself. All the gurus tell all these stories about what their awakening felt like. But does it even matter? I mean I can't rely solely on what they've got to say about awakening.

I probably could've found a better way to word this question, but I don't want to make it too long. I'd just like to hear your views.

Edited March 25 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[tuku747]

Yeah, when You just sit there and just realize It, there's nobody else to awaken because Everyone is God and Everyone is Already Wide Awake and is Just Playing A Role. Deep Down, Everybody Already Knows!

Just Realize It, and It Is So! That's How God Works!

You Are Infinite Imagination.

Simply Real-ize It Into Form!

Edited March 25 by tuku747

[OldManCorcoran]

I think most of those traditions are set up similar to the Bible in the sense they are trying to lay down a framework through which to live your life, how to be a good person, etc.

They never had Islam, Christianity or Judaism over in Asia did they? So this sort of thing probably played the same role.

I saw a monk the other day who buys animals from fishmongers and things like that only to go release them into the sea. I really respect that man, but that's the religion element, which is different from an event where the appearance of a self stops happening. That's more like living your life in a kind and loving way.

[Gesundheit2]

Be yourself.

[Osaid]

Insights are easily tainted by humans. A lot of people come back from some mystical experience and interpret it in such a stupid and materialistic way, but they think they're being spiritual and unbiased or something.

For example, the idea that "separation is illusion" is a very anthropomorphic idea. It just assumes anything that isn't physical is illusion. Most of the time when someone communicates an insight to you, it's said very hyperbolically and poetically. You have to reconcile the nuance by figuring the rest out for yourself.

 

[OldManCorcoran]

6 hours ago, Osaid said:

For example, the idea that "separation is illusion" is a very anthropomorphic idea. It just assumes anything that isn't physical is illusion. Most of the time when someone communicates an insight to you, it's said very hyperbolically and poetically. You have to reconcile the nuance by figuring the rest out for yourself.
 

I am interested to hear you explain further as to how it is anthropomorphic. Definitely many people do stupid shit like just put a capital letter in truth like it somehow verifies the fact that they're communicating some divine wisdom. People who don't have any clue really about what they're saying usually sound the most poetic. And try to just hide behind claims it's so magical they just can't tell you.

The more intimately you comprehend a particular concept, the easier you can explain it and warp around various metaphors and descriptions to point towards the same thing in a variety of ways. And the more basic you can word something. The more you can expand upon the becauses and really get deep into what you're trying to say.

Especially if you didn't understand something for a long time when listening to other people, then you can later understand WHY they failed to explain it to you and then include those missing things in your own communications of the same fact.

[Osaid]

49 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

I am interested to hear you explain further as to how it is anthropomorphic.

Illusion implies deception. The idea of an illusion is relative to an ego (human) that can be deceived.

For example, a mirage in the desert is not inherently deceptive, it's only deceptive relative to a human who sees it and then concludes from that visual stimuli that the mirage is a source of water. It's the human that extrapolates and imagines that the mirage is an actual source of water, when the mirage itself makes no such claim. The mirage is just a mirage. The human ego distorts it and labels it an illusion when it figures out that it has been tricked (by none other than itself, but the ego loves to blame things other than itself).

FYI, a mirage is a visual illusion created by light reflections, it can trick people into thinking there is water present when there isn't.

[axiom]

@DefinitelyNotARobot 

Yes, ignorance is just appearance.

Understanding or knowing are also just appearance.

Imagine you were injected into the brain with a drug that created the effect of really knowing and really understanding. Just the feeling of knowing without any relation to anything.

This is a pretty good metaphor for what all “understanding” is. It is just appearance. It stands alone and ultimately it is not in relation to anything. It is meaningless.

[OldManCorcoran]

59 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Illusion implies deception. The idea of an illusion is relative to an ego (human) that can be deceived.

For example, a mirage in the desert is not inherently deceptive, it's only deceptive relative to a human who sees it and then concludes from that visual stimuli that the mirage is a source of water. It's the human that extrapolates and imagines that the mirage is an actual source of water, when the mirage itself makes no such claim. The mirage is just a mirage. The human ego distorts it and labels it an illusion when it figures out that it has been tricked (by none other than itself, but the ego loves to blame things other than itself).

FYI, a mirage is a visual illusion created by light reflections, it can trick people into thinking there is water present when there isn't.

That's a great summation. That metaphor could be used in many ways.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

 

On 3/25/2023 at 3:45 PM, tuku747 said:

Simply Real-ize It Into Form!

Where would I even start? Buddhists would probably say "empty your cup first". That might make sense. How can I realize IT while I'm real-izing other things? How the hell am I even doing it? 

On 3/25/2023 at 5:47 PM, OldManCorcoran said:

I think most of those traditions are set up similar to the Bible in the sense they are trying to lay down a framework through which to live your life, how to be a good person, etc.

I don't even think that it's necessarily the traditions, but also non-traditional ideologies. You could apply the same to Leo's work, though he isn't necessarily your traditional kind of guru. I mean I understand why it happens. People want things quickly. They could put a lot of work into things such as developing a sense of security, stability, groundedness, etc, but it's more enticing to the reptilian brain to just trade all that hard work for a world view that somebody else has already created for the sake of quick answers, which create an apparent sense of stability and security. I don't blame them for taking the more comfortable path, though in the long run the comfortable path will actually turn out to be a hell of it's own.

 

On 3/25/2023 at 5:48 PM, Gesundheit2 said:

Be yourself.

Dude I've been looking for that motherfucker all over the place, but he's really really good at hiding.

 

20 hours ago, Osaid said:

Insights are easily tainted by humans. A lot of people come back from some mystical experience and interpret it in such a stupid and materialistic way, but they think they're being spiritual and unbiased or something.

For example, the idea that "separation is illusion" is a very anthropomorphic idea. It just assumes anything that isn't physical is illusion. Most of the time when someone communicates an insight to you, it's said very hyperbolically and poetically. You have to reconcile the nuance by figuring the rest out for yourself.

 

Okay so what would you do in my case? I'm sitting here, and I "seem" to be ignorant. Saying that it's an illusion doesn't change anything (though it's only an assumption of mine that truth would change anything at all), so is it about acknowledging what is? I acknowledge the apparent separation? The apparent ignorance? Where would you go from there?

 

19 hours ago, Squeekytoy said:

If you can name it, then it's an appearance.

But what is "it"? If "it" is an appearance, as long as "it" can be named, then what is "it"? I hope that makes sense.

 

14 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

The more intimately you comprehend a particular concept, the easier you can explain it and warp around various metaphors and descriptions to point towards the same thing in a variety of ways. And the more basic you can word something. The more you can expand upon the becauses and really get deep into what you're trying to say.

Especially if you didn't understand something for a long time when listening to other people, then you can later understand WHY they failed to explain it to you and then include those missing things in your own communications of the same fact.

To be fair, I think that it can be better to not feed too many ideas to the person you're trying to communicate with. Sometimes it's good to leave some "space" between the words so that they can find what they're looking for "in there". There is so much to say, but so few words, There is a certain beauty in people using these few words that we have with masterful accuracy, but I also appreciate more poetic descriptions of reality, as they can be really confusing, which can be pretty useful actually. Sometimes it's best not to get clear answers for things. It depends on what you currently need.

 

@axiom Is there anything that isn't an appearance according to your words? Because people here usually define understanding as something that "transcends" form, though that's also just an appearance from my pov.

[tuku747]

16 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Where would I even start? Buddhists would probably say "empty your cup first". That might make sense. How can I realize IT while I'm real-izing other things? How the hell am I even doing it? 

In this case it would be developing a genuine Belief / Faith in Unconditional Love; that deep, deep down, everyone knows Love because They Are Love. Truly held beliefs color Your Electromagnetic Vibration; Your Vibration attracts the timeline throughout timespace in which this belief becomes physically manifested.

The key is to see and act as if everyone is Already the most Loving version of themselves, Now. You must see past the physical illusion of appearances in Faith and assume the Best, Always.

Simple relax into Heaven on Earth.

You radiate Love from Your Being as Light. You Are The Light of The Word. Truly. When people feel that coming strongly enough from You, they willingly choose to reciprocate.

Edited March 26 by tuku747

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@tuku747 I get what you're saying, but I need to experience that for myself before I can even beginn wrap my head around it. Oh, there is that condition x again that must be met in order for me to awaken. 

[tuku747]

13 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

@tuku747 I get what you're saying, but I need to experience that for myself before I can even beginn wrap my head around it. Oh, there is that condition x again that must be met in order for me to awaken. 

You Are It.

You Are Intelligent Infinity.

The only thing that prevents You from knowing this is the belief that You can't know certain things or that You are not Infinitely Intelligent already.

Assume You Already Know Everything and Meditate Upon This.

You Will Attract Insight Just By Doing This.

Truly, I say to You, Your Will is Gravity Itself.

You Are Gravity. You Are Love. You Are The Logos.

You Are God. You Are Your Word. Affirm It Out Loud.

Teach Yourself. Learn From Yourself.

You Can Learn From Yourself.

You Can Teach Yourself Anything and Everything.

That is True Magic. You Are It.

Edited March 26 by tuku747

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@tuku747 Thank you, I respect your passion for this!

[Osaid]

2 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Okay so what would you do in my case? I'm sitting here, and I "seem" to be ignorant. Saying that it's an illusion doesn't change anything (though it's only an assumption of mine that truth would change anything at all), so is it about acknowledging what is? I acknowledge the apparent separation? The apparent ignorance? Where would you go from there?

First figure out what you know to be 100% true, and then go from there. You're experiencing something. What is it? Question and contemplate. You will run into questions that recontextualize your experience or shift your consciousness.

Acknowledging an apparent separation is good, that is an accurate description of your current experience. Then you could go:

How are things separate? How do I know things are separate? How do I know when something isn't separate? What separates me, the one thinking, from the rest of reality? When I am dreaming at night, is the dream character separate from the rest of the dreamscape, or is it all one thing? And if it is all one thing, how is that even possible? Could the same metaphysics of the dream state apply to the waking state experience? If "up" can't exist without "down", then are the two opposites really separate from each other despite being dependent on each other to exist? If certain dualities can't exist without the other, then are they really separate? Why do I perceive "up" and "down" as separate?

Edited March 26 by Osaid

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@Squeekytoy What is the difference between it appearing a certain way (it appears that there is no "what") and it being that way? Because when you say that there is no "what" you're probably, I assume, not trying to point me towards some kind of appearance, but to how things are in actuality. Well that obviously assumes that the way things appear isn't the way things are and that there is such a thing as "actuality". It's tricky, I'm not sure how to put this properly.

@Osaid Thank you I will see how that goes! 

[Gesundheit2]

5 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Dude I've been looking for that motherfucker all over the place, but he's really really good at hiding.

Hiding in plain sight, though.

The eye can see everything but itself.

[axiom]

10 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Is there anything that isn't an appearance according to your words? Because people here usually define understanding as something that "transcends" form, though that's also just an appearance from my pov.

All is appearance, even apparent understanding. How else could it appear? 

[Breakingthewall]

no, understanding is something real and has nothing to do with the conceptual mind. ignorance comes from limitation, if you remove the limitation, understanding takes place. You, as a human, are a limiter, you create ignorance in order to be something limited, concrete. you can't stop being that, but you can soften the boundaries and make understanding happen in some extent. Nothing is more beautiful than understanding. it's addictive. it is god in action.