Carl-Richard

Why we need religion

199 posts in this topic

@Tanz

2 hours ago, Tanz said:

@Blackhawk China removed religion when the ccp took over; it was a horrible idea because if you have been to Taiwan and China, you can see a noticeable difference between the mannerisms of Taiwanese and Chinese people.  

The Taiwanese are polite and a warmer, more outgoing version of what you can experience in Japan, while in China, people will walk right by a pedestrian that got hit by a car.  Before the communist party took over, Buddhism and Confucianism were a centralized part of their culture.  

   That's actually a good point, I just realized that I had that example in my head but forgot to write it here. Yes, there's definitely a difference between Taiwanese and Chinese views and attitudes.

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8 hours ago, Wolfgang Winterkaise said:

I agree, well said you systems view magician you. That's beautiful. Godspeed. 

Haha thank you sir ☺️


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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@Danioover9000 @Carl-Richard 

You're standing on a bunch of assumptions and intellect (abstractions). Where does the need for what you advocate exists in your experience? Grasp that the truth isn't in any teachings.

Beliefs can be held either as mindlessly adopted ideas which you're unwilling to question or as tools that can empower you, others, and your relationship to life. But no belief is true. In the end, it doesn't matter what you believe but what you do and whether you know who you are.

Edited by UnbornTao

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33 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

You're standing on a bunch of assumptions. 

You can hold beliefs either as ideas mindlessly adopted which you're unwilling to question or as tools that empower you, others and your relationship to life. As long as you don't confuse them with the truth.

The idea that meditation practice without a social safety net is a way to empower yourself is based on a set of assumptions. Are you willing to question those assumptions?

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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On 3/29/2023 at 0:02 AM, Carl-Richard said:

The idea that meditation practice without a social safety net is a way to empower yourself is based on a set of assumptions. Are you willing to question those assumptions?

Don't fill in the blanks with something I haven't said or turn it around to fit your argument. You're the one who is arguing for the need for religion. I don't care about that. You do whatever you want. Ultimately that's what each of us does. Make sure it is empowering for you and others.

If consciousness is what you want, consciousness is what you need. That's what I'm saying. Beliefs seem to stand in the way of that. That said, beliefs that are valuable to you, others and your life don't necessarily need to be discarded. Just recognize them as what they are.

Enlightenment work is a matter of personal responsibility. Standing behind circumstances won't cut it. As I was walking my dog one random night, I experienced "no-self", and prior to that I was anxious and overwhelmed, so what? External factors are what they are. Your consciousness isn't determined by those. Own your enlightenments, take care of yourself. The rest is not up to you and may be secondary. In the end, belief doesn't alter the fact that, in your experience, you still don't know pretty much anything. At best, you added intellectual understanding on top of your "knowledge" mountain. Ignorance (belief) can masquerade as actual understanding.

How come contemplators are generally portrayed as solitary types?

"What does religion contribute to my life? What have I come to understand by believing in hearsay? What have I become conscious of by following doctrines, performing rituals, interacting with other believers? What effect does belief have on experience?"

Edited by UnbornTao

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12 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

You're the one who is arguing for religion. I don't care about that. You do whatever you want.

What I'm saying is if you want consciousness, consciousness is what you need. Beliefs stand in the way of that. Don't fill in the blanks with something I haven't said or turn it around to fit your argument. If you find out that certain beliefs benefit your outlook on life, go ahead and enjoy those. Becoming conscious is ultimately a matter of personal responsibility, not of standing behind circumstances.

I had a glimpse in an anxious and overwhelmed state while walking my dog, so what? Again it looks like you're focusing on external factors too much here instead of what belief does to your experience.

Own your enlightenments while taking care of yourself. The rest is secondary.

Ask yourself: what do religions give you? What have you become conscious of by following a doctrine?

After all is said and done, your fundamental experience is still one of not knowing. Only now there is more crap in the way, or ignorance (beliefs) masquerading as knowledge (consciousness).

What steps should I take to become more conscious?

 

12 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

How come mystics, philosophers and sages are generally portrayed as solitary types?

Because meditation and deep thinking is generally done in a quiet place, and these people are also generally more resilient and developed than the average person, so they often don't need to rely other people as much. But to provide the correct conditions for resilience and development is different from already being resilient and developed. Adults don't need as much care as children, but if you deprive children of that care, they will not become functional adults.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Carl-Richard @UnbornTao WAH, I don't want my two favorite moderators to argue! Can we find a happy middle?

Lol why so serious? :ph34r:


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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9 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

What I'm saying is if you want consciousness, consciousness is what you need.

You don't get consciousness in a vacuum, you have to place it in the context of humanity and then in the context of a human. To increase your consciousness you need to do certain kind of practices and methods. If you accept and acknowledge that practices are happening in the context of your human life and in the context of a society, then you shouldn't have a problem with a consciously constructed system (religion 2.0)  that helps you in a holistic way (where your human needs are acknowledged and not ignored)

If you don't approach consciousness in a holistic and organised way (where your humans needs are actually taken care of and appreciated), then you will have a disorganised and chaotic development and you will unnecessarily slow down your process.

9 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

You're the one who is arguing for religion. I don't care about that. You do whatever you want.

But you do probably care about how effective certain methods are and how efficiently those could lead you or anyone to enlgihtenment. If you care about the effectivesness, then we can move on to argue about the next part which is this: What do you think is more effective?

 

1)Having to collect, try, all the different kind of practices alone and then try to create a model in your head about which one is probably more effective and better than the other one

 

OR

 

2) Being part of a spiritual community, where science is integrated, a place where  you can find all the information about spiritual practices and methods in one place (the effectiveness of methods are ranked by using the help of statistics and science not by dogma [unironically you can find a lot of dogmas in every spiritual community regarding the methods and practices - for example notice Leo's bias towards psychedelics]).

Because science is integrated, we are talking about a dynamic and a constantly developing system and not about a rigid, dogmatic, unchanging one; and because science is integrated and human limitations and needs are not ignored, this place can help you not just with enlightenment, but to prepare you for enlightenment. The preparation for enlightenment is incredibly important (this is ignored or very poorly taken into account in every current spiritual community - because they don't approach it in a holistic way), because doing certain practices when you are not healed or developed enough will make doing certain methods or practices either futile or ineffective or even counterproductive and dangerous.

Edited by zurew

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On 3/29/2023 at 1:51 AM, Carl-Richard said:

What steps should I take to become more conscious?

I don't think that fundamentally there are steps to it as in a sequence. You do it. You become conscious. You make a breakthrough. Deeply wanting to know and wondering about stuff helps. Contemplate. Hold a question and intent to discover what's true. Exercises and practices may be invented to help the mind focus.

Contemplation is what you do while becoming conscious. ;) 

Quote

Because meditation and deep thinking is generally done in a quiet place, and these people are also generally more resilient and developed than the average person, so they often don't need other people to rely on as much. But to provide the correct conditions for resilience and development is different from already being resilient and developed. Adults don't need as much care as children, but if you deprive children of that care, they will not become functional adults.

I'm a solitary type, I don't know about that. Fair enough.

Edited by UnbornTao

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On 3/28/2023 at 1:57 AM, Danioover9000 said:

@UnbornTao

   What about the Nihilism or Solipsism that may result? On the scale of millions? It's already terrifying for one person, neverminded getting millions to leave religions and stay in a collective state of not knowing.

   There's also the masses weaponizing grand narratives, like how does anyone knows which one is better?

I doubt people would suddenly turn crazy or depressed without religion, or that they would experience not-knowing. They would likely have less stuff standing in the way. Wonder can emerge from that.

You can see it as being freed from mostly unnecessary and at times harmful, presumptions. From that, a deeper questioning can take place. Again, if they provide value to you, they don't need to be discarded as long as they're recognized as what they are - belief, not an experience of what's true.

On 3/29/2023 at 1:55 AM, Danioover9000 said:

@Carl-Richard @UnbornTao WAH, I don't want my two favorite moderators to argue! Can we find a happy middle?

We could start our own religion. Free bread and unconditional love for everyone!

:P 

Edited by UnbornTao

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@zurew 

Sounds good. What's enlightenment, though? It isn't about development. It's you deeply realizing the absolute nature of existence or you.

Don't know whether what you said is true or not. You seem to be talking from or about an ideal of what it means to increase one's consciousness. You can become conscious at the beach or in the forest since contemplation isn't limited to any set of circumstances in particular. You could even have an enlightenment by falling in the bathtub. Have yet to hear something like that happening, though. :D 

A Zen monastery is likely the least BS, most straightforward environment you could be in. And yet that gets corrupted by dogma, too, even though direct consciousness is the spirit of Zen.

Edited by UnbornTao

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@UnbornTao

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@zurew I don't know whether that's true or not. A Zen monastery is probably the least BS, most straightforward environment you could participate in. And yet that still gets easily corrupted by dogma and ritual even though the spirit of Zen is direct consciousness. What you're talking about sounds like an ideal or something like that.

will probably add more tomorrow, it's 4:00Am lol

   OMG, why so late? Do you do meditation after midnight?

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7 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

I don't think there are steps as in a sequence. You do it. Deeply want to know and wonder about stuff. Contemplate. Hold a question and intent to discover what's true.

You know what I'm going to say, right? Sounds pretty New Age to me: minimal prescriptions, minimal theory, minimal tradition, sort of vague; just pure seeking of the sacred, stripped to its bare bones. "Just follow your bliss, man" :)

I don't think we're getting anywhere. We disagree on what spirituality and religion is, we disagree on the degree to which belief is inherent to either spirituality or religion, etc. It's hard to get off the ground without settling those.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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religion is good in as much as people want to connect and hang out; it is about making spirituality practical and down to earth

i think the salvation army and the unity church movement are good examples of this in action

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On 3/25/2023 at 11:16 PM, Carl-Richard said:

So should we just be lonely New Age carrot farmers then? Is that a better alternative?

I'm not lonely and neither do I have any affiliations with the New Age, yet I reject religion :o - shocking, I know.


“We are most nearly ourselves when we achieve the seriousness of the child at play.” - Heraclitus

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On 3/30/2023 at 11:57 AM, Carl-Richard said:

You know what I'm going to say, right? Sounds pretty New Age to me: minimal prescriptions, minimal theory, minimal tradition, sort of vague; just pure seeking of the sacred, stripped to its bare bones. "Just follow your bliss, man" :)

I don't think we're getting anywhere. We disagree on what spirituality and religion is, we disagree on the degree to which belief is inherent to either spirituality or religion, etc. It's hard to get off the ground without settling those.

Spirituality is first hand experience of the Divine; religion is second hand hearsay of the Divine - not that hard to settle.


“We are most nearly ourselves when we achieve the seriousness of the child at play.” - Heraclitus

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On 3/29/2023 at 2:51 AM, Carl-Richard said:

What steps should I take to become more conscious?

Quit academia, that shit is rotting your mind.


“We are most nearly ourselves when we achieve the seriousness of the child at play.” - Heraclitus

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@gettoefl

On 3/30/2023 at 4:59 PM, gettoefl said:

religion is good in as much as people want to connect and hang out; it is about making spirituality practical and down to earth

i think the salvation army and the unity church movement are good examples of this in action

   That's true to a degree, but a person won't have deeper insights into spirituality if they just follow the herd too much here.

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2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

I'm not lonely and neither do I have any affiliations with the New Age, yet I reject religion :o - shocking, I know.

I'm sure your spiritual inclinations are pretty New Age. It's essentially just postmodern spirituality.

 

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Spirituality is first hand experience of the Divine

That is mysticism.

 

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

religion is second hand hearsay of the Divine

That is dogma.

 

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Quit academia, that shit is rotting your mind.

Mmm yes, sprinkle some anti-science in there and we're fully prepared for the New Age ?

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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