Frank Yang on TOE with Curt Jaimungal Interview

[Salvijus]

 

@axiom okey i won't use "us" and "we" ? See if u disagree with this one. 

1. There's a desire for peace inherent in all human beings. (Because universe is simply made that way) it's that way by design.

2. That desire is what makes humans search and do all the steps necessary to achieve that peace.

Let me hear your thoughts ? 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Salvijus

[Thought Art]

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

@Thought Art no you're triggered alright.

No YOU are triggered

No bro u are triggered 

NNNOOOOOOOO

How do i get myself in these ping pong games all the time ?

The point is not the emotions. 
 

The point is, if you haven’t tried a technique you don’t know what it is. 

[axiom]

2 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

@axiom okey i won't use "us" and "we" ? See if u disagree with this one. 

1. There's a desire for peace inherent in all human beings. (Because universe is simply made that way) it's that way by design.

2. That desire is what makes humans search and do all the steps necessary to achieve that peace.

Let me hear your thoughts ? 

 

There may be a desire for peace, but it isn't within the human being.

1) The desire for peace
2) The human being

These on a level playing field (appearances). 

[Salvijus]

@Thought Art ok

[Salvijus]

14 minutes ago, axiom said:

There may be a desire for peace, but it isn't within the human being.

1) The desire for peace
2) The human being

These on a level playing field (appearances). 

So okey, an "apparant desire" for peace is there build in by design "apparantly inside" into an "apparant human being's mind". It seems u agree a little bit on that.

And can we agree that this "apparant desire" is what causes an "apparant human being" to take "apparant necessary steps" to find that peace?

Edited March 6, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

@axiom ive edited pls check ? 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Salvijus

[Juan]

An awakened person shows up at the therapist’s office. Therapist calls his wife and tells her, “Honey, I’d be back from therapy later.” 

@Thought Art @Leo Gura

Edited March 6, 2023 by Juan

[Thought Art]

9 minutes ago, Juan said:

A awakened person shows up at the therapist’s office. Therapist calls his wife and tells her, “Honey, I’d be back from therapy later.” 

@Thought Art @Leo Gura

I think it goes like “An Awakened Person” 

[Salvijus]

@axiom okey nvm i'm tired of it. 

I thought the statements to be pretty basic and easy to agree upon honestly. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing that we are all born with an inharant desire to find peace by design, and that this is the cause for all other steps we take to find that peace. 

It's impossible to disagree on statements imo. U can only divert the attention to a different topic by saying "us" and "we" are just apparances. Well yea, but that doesn't invalidate my point at all. So.... i think we reached the end of how far we were able to explore this time

Maybe next time will be better

Peace

Edited March 6, 2023 by Salvijus

[axiom]

@Salvijus If next time is better, then I will have failed. Exhaust the self.

[Flyboy]

On 3/2/2023 at 3:34 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Flyboy Well, the problem is that you think you understand me.

I didn't do what you call "the work", because I realized it leads to a state of self-deception. Of which Frank Yang, Shinzen Young, and Daniel Ingram are prime examples.

These people do not fathom God or Consciousness. And you will follow in their footsteps.

Okay, let's look at that.  Realization (enlightenment, etc) is about what is TRUE in direct experience, in this moment.  That is like the entire game.  It is a radical and uncompromising commitment to authenticity and to seeing clearly.  Concepts like "nonduality" and "no-self" and "dependent origination" emerge FROM that investigation, they are not dogma going into it, and they are never considered TRUE of themselves.  They are pointers to what is true, guides to deepening the investigation.  Once completed, self-deception literally isn't even possible, because there is no "room" between this and that, between a self and a truth, between experience and someone to judge experience.  Pure seamlessness.

Your psychedelic "truth" is a joke for several reasons.  It is never NOW, but always in the past, a memory, an experience, and always seen THROUGH the contractions and conditionings you retain as "you" in this moment.  The memory occurs now, but it is only a simulacrum, a reconstruction.  It is not IT any more than a photograph of London IS London.  Your only defense against this is a ludicrous one, in which you ASSUME the so-called "truth" you got from the trip and apply it circularly (e.g. you'll say shit like: You're just God imagining that he remembered the trip").   This is epistemological BS and you know it.  What is true MUST be true NOW, or it isn't fucking true.  It's not about brain chemistry or no-mind or any of that crap.  If it IS TRUE, it is true now/always (and not in concept!  in experience!!!).  All of your remembered trips is nothing more than concept, period.  And I call you schizophrenic because that is the delusive state in which concept is taken to BE reality, which in your case is pretty fucking accurate.

"The work" as you say leads to THIS.  It is the only thing it can lead to, because it is right here and right now regardless of the content, regardless of what is perceived or thought.  But see, you don't seem to understand how this actually progresses at all because you literally didn't make it out the gate.  You don't understand that sensory clarity deepens, and eventually allows one to see the finest grains of experience, and you don't understand what happens when you bring equanimity to ever more subtle gradations of "selfness".  You don't understand how self and resistance arise together, mutually dependent, to precipitate out of Nothing "everything", in a sense, even consciousness itself.  Boundaries are just more distinctions, more resistance, and they CAN be dissolved with equanimity and surrender.  The agent/doer is more resistance, the watcher or observer is more resistance, even Being God/omniscient or Being Nothing is more resistance.  This isn't seen in a mystical flash, but in a microscopic AND macroscopic examination simultaneously that is clearer and clearer until even clarity gets sucked into the black hole that collapses all dualities.  Being and non-being, existence and non-existence, God and nothing at all... all collapse, but not into "emptiness" (which the buddhists are not using in the way it sounds in English), but into THISNESS, which is just a way of saying there IS this dance happening, but that in it the divine and mundane are unified utterly.  A piece of dog shit is as divine as the most incredible alien god-realization you could ever dream up.  Literally, there is nothing "outside" of THIS because it is itself without a self.  The tongue twists and fails in describing the collapse of duality, yet it can be KNOWN literally as true Unknowing (what do you think Ralston's title really means?!).  But this realization is achieved only through this radical journey of acceptance and love at deep and subtle levels.  Loving a criminal is a walk in the park compared to loving the subtle horrifyingly painful vibration that you feel to be you in your deepest existential being.  It must be done until "done is what needed to be done."  You, sir, have no ability to imagine or understand this, no matter how many trips you do.  Someone being able to "talk" about the nature of God is only a disqualification, never a qualification.  THIS cannot be spoken of, and disregarding that as folly IS folly.  You probably won't hear any of this, being the dishonest narcissist that you are.  But to anyone with whom this resonates, I sincerely encourage you to look to your heart for truth, not to Leo.

[Danioover9000]

@axiom

15 hours ago, axiom said:

@Salvijus Ponder the last time you ever chose a thought.

   You can choose a particular thought to focus on. It's pretty hard but it's possible, a few times with my close friend.

[axiom]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@axiom

   You can choose a particular thought to focus on. It's pretty hard but it's possible, a few times with my close friend.

You really can’t choose anything. It can seem that way of course, but if examined (which in itself is also choiceless), it can be recognised that the thought or the focus on the thought is never chosen. It simply appears.

Later, it can become very obvious that you are not actually there to choose it - but this can take many months, years or lifetimes (see my signature)

I’m not sure if you meditate, but after a week or two of meditation, a subtle recognition of choicelessness can begin to emerge. Eventually it becomes crystal clear and can be pretty amusing or shocking.

@Flyboy Give Leo a break  He may be “wrong” (and of course he is at the relative level), but he is also just an appearance like everything else. All part of the grand THIS. And he will get there eventually. Everything does. It’s a sort of entropic process and selfhood / ego is the futile fight against it.

Edited March 7, 2023 by axiom

[vladorion]

10 minutes ago, axiom said:

You really can’t choose anything. It can seem that way of course, but if examined (which in itself is also choiceless), it can be recognised that the thought or the focus on the thought is never chosen. It simply appears.

Later, it can become very obvious that you are not actually there to choose it - but this can take many months, years or lifetimes (see my signature)

I’m not sure if you meditate, but after a week or two of meditation, a subtle recognition of choicelessness can begin to emerge. Eventually it becomes crystal clear and can be pretty amusing or shocking.

@Flyboy Give Leo a break  He may be “wrong” (and of course he is at the relative level), but he is also just an appearance like everything else. All part of the grand THIS. And he will get there eventually. Everything does. It’s a sort of entropic process and selfhood / ego is the futile fight against it.

He gets it.

 

[The Mystical Man]

@Flyboy I like what you write. I hope you write more.

[Breakingthewall]

@Flyboy solid and very deep,but I d say that the periodic psychedelic trip with total dissolution of the ego, plus the maximum purification of yourself that comes as a consequence of that practice, is the way. at least mine

[Arthogaan]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

You really can’t choose anything. It can seem that way of course, but if examined (which in itself is also choiceless), it can be recognised that the thought or the focus on the thought is never chosen. It simply appears.

For me the natural progression is like this:

Being ego and thinking you have a choice -> observing ego and therefore seeing every choice just comes without anyone choosing -> becoming Consciousness itself = Being Free Will itself 

I as Consciousness can choose what to focus on. I can can choose to meditate this very moment. To later observe that pure choice and interpret that as "actually it just happened on itself so free will does not exists" is putting ideas on direct experience and delusion. In direct experience I as consciousness can choose to focus on hand of this body. To dismiss that mysterious force of free will is to me ego stuck in being the witness and not the pure Conscioisness itself.

[axiom]

@Arthogaan Or: transposition of selfhood to the position of “pure consciousness” is the activity of self, faced with its own demise, and clutching at something to survive.

[Arthogaan]

5 minutes ago, axiom said:

@Arthogaan Or: transposition of selfhood to the position of “pure consciousness” is the activity of self, faced with its own demise, and clutching at something to survive.

Or: avoiding the recognition that Consciousness is Self, and avoiding Selfhood is activity of ego trapped in no-self paradigm that rejects direct experience of Self.

(I respect your view, and I believe we actually pointing to the same thing. Just offering perspective to others if they prefer it.)

Edited March 7, 2023 by Arthogaan

[Leo Gura]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:24 PM, Flyboy said:

Okay, let's look at that.  Realization (enlightenment, etc) is about what is TRUE in direct experience, in this moment.  That is like the entire game.  It is a radical and uncompromising commitment to authenticity and to seeing clearly. 

Nope, that's just a narrative in your mind.

Understanding Consciousness is way more tricky and radical than that.

Quote

Concepts like "nonduality" and "no-self" and "dependent origination" emerge FROM that investigation, they are not dogma going into it

Yes, absolutely they are mental constructions and dogma.

This situation is so bad that even after you have some of your so-called "enlightenments", even THAT is mental construction!

Quote

and they are never considered TRUE of themselves. 

Yes they are. You are doing it.

Quote

They are pointers to what is true, guides to deepening the investigation.  Once completed, self-deception literally isn't even possible, because there is no "room" between this and that, between a self and a truth, between experience and someone to judge experience.  Pure seamlessness.

Pure nonsense! This is self-deception!

Most of the so-called "enlightened" people on this planet are deeply self-deceived.

Quote

Your psychedelic "truth" is a joke for several reasons.  It is never NOW, but always in the past, a memory, an experience, and always seen THROUGH the contractions and conditionings you retain as "you" in this moment.  The memory occurs now, but it is only a simulacrum, a reconstruction. It is not IT any more than a photograph of London IS London.

Nonsense. You fundamentally misunderstand how psychedelics work and what Truth even refers to.

Quote

Your only defense against this is a ludicrous one, in which you ASSUME the so-called "truth" you got from the trip and apply it circularly (e.g. you'll say shit like: You're just God imagining that he remembered the trip").   This is epistemological BS and you know it. 

No. You fundamentally don't understand what Truth is.

Quote

What is true MUST be true NOW, or it isn't fucking true.

Consciousness comes in many states and degrees, and all of them are True. However, Awakened Consciousness is an extremely rare state and you will not be in it 24/7. Nor must you be in order to understand what Truth/God/Consciousness is.

Quote

If it IS TRUE, it is true now/always (and not in concept!  in experience!!!).

You are treating truth as some abstraction. What's not what Truth is. Truth is your entire field of experience, no matter what that experience is. However, even though that's the case, that doesn't mean you are Conscious of much. A dog's experience is Truth, however the dog is not Conscious of anything existential.

Quote

All of your remembered trips is nothing more than concept, period. 

I can say the same thing for all your meditative achievements. Even the fact that you have ever meditated is a concept/memory. So if you are going to deny me access to memory, I will do the same to you, and therefore even Buddhism doesn't exist because it's just a memory. You have never read a Buddhist book nor ever sat down to meditate nor done a retreat -- by your own logic.

Quote

And I call you schizophrenic because that is the delusive state in which concept is taken to BE reality, which in your case is pretty fucking accurate.

Calling me schizophrenic is completely nonsensical. You have no idea what that word means.

Concepts can be used to make sense of reality, there is no problem in doing so, as long as it is done carefully and you understand what you are doing.

Quote

"The work" as you say leads to THIS.  It is the only thing it can lead to, because it is right here and right now regardless of the content, regardless of what is perceived or thought.  But see, you don't seem to understand how this actually progresses at all because you literally didn't make it out the gate.  You don't understand that sensory clarity deepens, and eventually allows one to see the finest grains of experience, and you don't understand what happens when you bring equanimity to ever more subtle gradations of "selfness".  You don't understand how self and resistance arise together, mutually dependent, to precipitate out of Nothing "everything", in a sense, even consciousness itself. 

This is Buddhist dogma that you picked up and which now forms the background of your entire worldview.

This is just one way to frame things, and it certainly is not Awakening nor any high degree of Consciousness. Nor is it any kind of deep metaphysical understanding of reality. What you are talking about is shallow stuff.

Quote

Boundaries are just more distinctions, more resistance, and they CAN be dissolved with equanimity and surrender. The agent/doer is more resistance, the watcher or observer is more resistance...

I don't give a fuck about equanimity or surrender. That is Buddhist dogma. What matters is Consciousness and understanding of reality. You are chasing the wrong thing.

Quote

even Being God/omniscient or Being Nothing is more resistance. 

No! You have no comprehension of what God or Omniscience is.

Quote

This isn't seen in a mystical flash, but in a microscopic AND macroscopic examination simultaneously that is clearer and clearer until even clarity gets sucked into the black hole that collapses all dualities.  Being and non-being, existence and non-existence, God and nothing at all... all collapse, but not into "emptiness" (which the buddhists are not using in the way it sounds in English), but into THISNESS, which is just a way of saying there IS this dance happening, but that in it the divine and mundane are unified utterly. 

More Buddhist dogma.

Quote

A piece of dog shit is as divine as the most incredible alien god-realization you could ever dream up. 

A piece of dog shit is God. But that doesn't mean you're deeply Conscious of anything.

Quote

Literally, there is nothing "outside" of THIS because it is itself without a self.  The tongue twists and fails in describing the collapse of duality, yet it can be KNOWN literally as true Unknowing (what do you think Ralston's title really means?!).  But this realization is achieved only through this radical journey of acceptance and love at deep and subtle levels. 

I'm well aware of what you're referring. What I'm referring to is a whole order of magnitude beyond the things you're talking about. You cannot even imagine what I am talking about because it is so radical.

Quote

Loving a criminal is a walk in the park compared to loving the subtle horrifyingly painful vibration that you feel to be you in your deepest existential being.  It must be done until "done is what needed to be done." 

Simply irrelevant to Consciousness.

Quote

You, sir, have no ability to imagine or understand this, no matter how many trips you do.  Someone being able to "talk" about the nature of God is only a disqualification, never a qualification.  THIS cannot be spoken of, and disregarding that as folly IS folly.  You probably won't hear any of this, being the dishonest narcissist that you are.  But to anyone with whom this resonates, I sincerely encourage you to look to your heart for truth, not to Leo.

You are full of shit and I see through all your Buddhist posturing. You haven't even begun to comprehend Consciousness. And if you keep acting in this utterly arrogant manner, you will be banned from here.

You actually believe you comprehend Consciousness better than me? You're insane.

You are a posterboy for the dangers of Buddhist and nondual teachings. You've turned them into a just another dream state which you now call "enlightenment". That's not Awakening, that's just a spiritual dream.

I repeat: Buddhism and nonduality is not God-Realization nor Awakening. Enlightenment is dream.

Since your mind is closed, I will no longer me making an effort to teach you. This is a consequence of your own mind's design. That's how you wanted it. So that's what I will give you. I am not going to teach people who refuse to listen and think they know better than me. You have not outsmarted me. You've just fooled yourself. I told you from the very beginning how much openmindedness is required for this work. You failed to learn that basic lesson.

The amount of arrogance and gaslighting that I have to deal with from people like you is outrageous. You should be be ashamed of yourself. You have no respect for the sheer intelligence I offered you. I'm one of the only people on this planet who could have helped you access the highest Consciousness. But now you can go swim in the dream that you and your Buddhist friends have constructed.

What I teach is not Buddhism. Because Buddhism isn't Awakening. If you don't like that then you're in the wrong place. The things I teach, no other human will teach you. It will take you a long time to appreciate that, if ever.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Leo Gura