Frank Yang on TOE with Curt Jaimungal Interview

[The Mystical Man]

2 hours ago, The Mystical Man said:

it's certainly better to understand than not to understand

Although sometimes ignorance is preferable. 

[billiesimon]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Properly speaking, spirituality is the pursuit of God. Any suffering along that way is just a sideshow. It is irrelevant when it comes to connecting with God. What you really want isn't to end suffering, it's to connect with God. Generally speaking, as a byproduct of connecting to God, you will suffer less and experience more joy.

What I don't understand is the relationship between high states of consciousness and suffering.

In my experience, both sober and psychedelic, higher states deeply reduce suffering. The reason why this happens is because you stop interpreting pain as negative, and start to feel it as a neutral expression of being, just like sleepiness, excitement, an ithc on the skin etc....

I hope I'm getting the point across. I have experienced it at least 5-6 times, and it also makes sense using traditional reason: if you stop discriminating, even subconsciously, between all sensations, pain becomes non-suffering. The only point of suffering is the ego-agenda. It has no other purpose.

So, what I'm asking is: shouldn't a DIRECT consciousness of God, in the present moment I mean, erase all survival agendas, thus erase suffering? I don't mean permanently, I mean as long as you remain in a deep state. Do you agree?

[Salvijus]

11 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

So, what I'm asking is: shouldn't a DIRECT consciousness of God, in the present moment I mean, erase all survival agendas, thus erase suffering? I don't mean permanently, I mean as long as you remain in a deep state. Do you agree?

Nicely articulated. I tried to get the same point across many times but it never lands anywhere. Even tho it makes a lot of sense. 

Į believe buddbist end of suffering goal leads straight to absolute truth bc it is delusions that cause suffering and it is the truth the remove delusions. Hence u can only transcend suffering if youre in constant touch with the truth beyond all suffering. Hence... Use some brains brothers. The rest of it is so obvious. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[ValiantSalvatore]

28 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

I hope I'm getting the point across. I have experienced it at least 5-6 times, and it also makes sense using traditional reason: if you stop discriminating, even subconsciously, between all sensations, pain becomes non-suffering. The only point of suffering is the ego-agenda. It has no other purpose.

So, what I'm asking is: shouldn't a DIRECT consciousness of God, in the present moment I mean, erase all survival agendas, thus erase suffering? I don't mean permanently, I mean as long as you remain in a deep state. Do you agree?

I don't know if this expands the perspective, yet I've done DIRECT... meditations of pain within this expansion and contraction paradigm, and if I play out the scenario there is no point of existence even suffering. That is how simply it would be. Pain can move you into absolute fullfilment. It has a very satisfactory quality. You can basically become blissed out and burn yourself without experiencing pain like the vietnamese monks did during a protest, from my type of understanding. Taking full responsbility for the information. Although this is more jhanic from my understanding and has nothing to do with consciouness. It's more of a byproduct of other types of meditative work. Some "schools" deemphasise this. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do DIRECTLY, with consciouness.

Bliss states and joy != consciouness, that is at least my experience. It's more restful and equanemous, yet that is not consciouness. I presume high states of consciouness can be blissed out with jhanic type of samadhi gradations... so... you see the whole point of it. 

The paradigm that I did:

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_painprocessingalg.pdf

The deep state of bliss would evaporate any cravings, yes this is even mapped out I bet in some buddhist type texts. This is nothing very new, yet very difficult to attain. These states are jhanic not god-realized, it's more of a subset of subsets within consciouness work sort of. From my POV.

Blissed out there is no problem. Although IIRC even this is also suffering, so you are also correct in some aspect. When I recall some of the book reading, I did here.

Might be no end to it as long as there is a physical body, besides very very deep states of bliss from jhanic type work. Even in higher bodies "kaya's" ... it is very possible suffering is there, yet that is very advanced. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[0zedek0]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

One of my gripes with Buddhism is that it makes people focus on the wrong thing: calming the monkey mind, escaping suffering, and realizing no-self. To me these are all the wrong goals. The proper goal should be pure understanding of metaphysics and Consciousness.

How is calming the monkey mind a bad focus? I would assume clearing all that garbage sets a solid foundation for deep contemplative work and allowing for the free expression of awareness unbound by the untrue wants and needs of the ego mind. 

I don't think many people can shoot for pure understanding of metaphycis and consciousness without first calming the monkey mind and reframing their entire experience. 

Leo, I would also like to ask what are your views on the term enlightenment, I notice in your old videos you were shooting for it and were keen on attaining it, but what now? Do you see it as a spiritual cul de sac that people can get stuck on?

The way I see it is that enlightenment is just the beginning. If we take enlightenment to mean "seeing things as they truly are, or abiding in your true nature" then enlightenment would mean wiping the slate clean, giving you a pure perspective to begin honest exploration into the nature of consciousness/God. 

Let me know what you think.

 

[The Mystical Man]

3 hours ago, Sincerity said:

I think one could have a high and satisfactory level of peace/eradicated suffering. Like with understanding.

Karma does come to an end. Understanding, however, is endless.

[Salvijus]

Leo, I have a strong feeling that almost every buddhist if u asked would say that your understanding of buddhism is not accurate and full of holes. That's a moment worthy of self-reflection imo.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Consept]

55 minutes ago, 0zedek0 said:

How is calming the monkey mind a bad focus? I would assume clearing all that garbage sets a solid foundation for deep contemplative work and allowing for the free expression of awareness unbound by the untrue wants and needs of the ego mind. 

I don't think many people can shoot for pure understanding of metaphycis and consciousness without first calming the monkey mind and reframing their entire experience. 

Leo, I would also like to ask what are your views on the term enlightenment, I notice in your old videos you were shooting for it and were keen on attaining it, but what now? Do you see it as a spiritual cul de sac that people can get stuck on?

The way I see it is that enlightenment is just the beginning. If we take enlightenment to mean "seeing things as they truly are, or abiding in your true nature" then enlightenment would mean wiping the slate clean, giving you a pure perspective to begin honest exploration into the nature of consciousness/God. 

Let me know what you think.

 

I agree with you on this and I would even go further. If you are in suffering I think pretty much everything you do is in some way an effort to alleviate this suffering, including something like trying to become enlightened or understand consciousness. You may convince yourself that you just want truth but it's no different than someone who is pain that wants to get rich, the only difference is the belief of what is needed to escape the pain. Most people seeking enlightenment or meta physical understanding, I believe, would drop the search if they were genuinely content and had worked out all their trauma. 

Which is why I think for you to even embark on the journey your first step should be working out the trauma, I can't get my head around people that say you shouldn't worry about this step or try and skip it. 

[Sincerity]

47 minutes ago, The Mystical Man said:

Karma does come to an end. 

I don't know that. Do You?

I don't really think about karma (or buddhism in general) but I wouldn't be surprised if it was endless. You can't believe what they tell You, I think You shouldn't even believe there is anything like "karma". 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Sincerity

[Nilsi]

21 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

I don't know that. Do You?

I don't really think about karma (or buddhism in general) but I wouldn't be surprised if it was endless. You can't believe what they tell You, I think You shouldn't even believe there is anything like "karma". 

As long as there is becoming, there is karma (which refers to the movement of becoming that is already given/determined) - if you abolish becoming in your metaphysics, you also abolish any notions of karma.

[The Mystical Man]

2 hours ago, Sincerity said:

I wouldn't be surprised if it was endless

Well, in a sense, karma is endless -- there is collective karma, too, but the individual should be able to dissolve his karma to a satisfactory degree. 

2 hours ago, Sincerity said:

I think You shouldn't even believe there is anything like "karma". 

Of course there is karma -- it's just a fancy word for conditioning or memory. Not all karma is bad. Without karma you couldn't walk. Your physicality is the way it is because of karma. What's problematic is mental and emotional karma, because those karmic patterns may lead to unwise actions that may result in unpleasant situations. Your karma colors how you experience yourself, others, and life -- which is why you can't enjoy life as long as your negative imprints dictate your behavior; you will feel that your survival is threatened by every small thing that happens.

[Arthogaan]

I watched the whole podcast and I actually now understand why Leo puts so much emphasis on buddhism being closed paradigm. 

I also realize now tha Leo was right in saying that many people following buddhism tradition often still have some deep remnants of objective reality left.

I love Yang but after the podcast it seems obvious to me that he did not went as deep as Leo.

There is this clinging to objective and scientific terminology still from Yang.

[Jodistrict]

Buddhism is not a philosophy.  Buddhism is a religion.   It’s purpose is not to answer philosophical questions on the nature of consciousness.  

The other issue is on consciousness.   Real consciousness includes an inner connection and integration of our unconscious.   Thus, for example, if you get more angry than is appropriate, or you have a constant underlying anxiety, than you are not fully conscious.  There are parts of yourself of which you are not aware.  That is why healing is necessary for true consciousness.  Then all the concepts, ideas, and chatter of the left brain just fall away and you fully live life in the moment.
 

[ValiantSalvatore]

4 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Buddhism is not a philosophy.  Buddhism is a religion.   It’s purpose is not to answer philosophical questions on the nature of consciousness.  

The other issue is on consciousness.   Real consciousness includes an inner connection and integration of our unconscious.   Thus, for example, if you get more angry than is appropriate, or you have a constant underlying anxiety, than you are not fully conscious.  There are parts of yourself of which you are not aware.  That is why healing is necessary for true consciousness.  Then all the concepts, ideas, and chatter of the left brain just fall away and you fully live life in the moment.

From any true philosophers standpoint, the shadow is endless in that sense unconsciouness, there never is full completion there is always something higher and non-integrated. There is buddhist philosophy with on Google Search, I mean I can even ask ChatGpt...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_philosophy

Healing is neccessary, yet it's endless. The higher you go the more complex it will be. Even in these high states there is unconsciouness. Unconsciouness never ends... similar to consciouness it's similar when you contempalte regressive infinity...as a reconstruction of self and world so to speak. 

This sounds like emotional mastery 101, like Marc Aurel and some stoic type of philosophy, which I enjoy it's humbling, also gave me access to some consciouness depth connection. There is 100% budhist philosophy, with deep philosophical questions, many have even been scared of it like Freud. 

What is correct and a critique from western intellectuals like Wilber is that Buddhist don't integrate the unconsciouness very much and that this is an achievement of western psychology mostly, even though I bet there are eastern ways and methods to, to integrate the unconsciouness, shadow, trauma etc.

To call buddhism a religion is not very fair, in it's totality. 

[Flyboy]

On 2/25/2023 at 0:47 PM, Leo Gura said:

Frank Yang is not Awake.

Monkey games.

As someone that understands both Frank and Leo deeply, I can just say one thing: Leo is the one that is full of shit.  Sorry dude, you have gone way off the deep end into a narcissistic rabbit hole centered around your own deepest conditioning, the desire to know.  And of course the irony is that the desire to know is why you cannot know.  The desire to understand is why you don't understand.

The way you talk about Frank and the rest of spirituality betrays a deep ignorance of what any of it is about or how any of it works.  You did so fucking little of the work yourself that you never even got a taste of what is even being pointed to before you took psychedelic easy street.  Like your 10 day retreats?  Such a joke.  You checked your phone and cooked yourself big meals and filmed birds and made videos.  That is not a meditation retreat.  You constantly berate people to "do the work" when it has always been YOU that can't do the work, it has always been YOU that is stuck in concepts and contractions.  You are lazy and selfish, and always have been.  The sad part is that you are too inauthentic to truly admit this to yourself, which you have avoided by generating up this massive scaffolding of "work" that is really just a giant pile of bullshit that you hide behind.  You are very nearly schizophrenic in the way that you are disconnected from life, other people, embodied reality, and the sheer presence of being... lost in a web of concepts and "trust me I tripped hard" beliefs, none of which are even close to the Truth.  Every post you make is fraught with contraction, anger, pettiness, and this shriveled sniveling ego that sucks itself off with every word.  I see your suffering.  You suffer deeply, and the harder into this you go the worse it gets.

Were you not the cult leader of this unfortunate gang, I'd feel really sorry and compassionate for you.  But it deeply saddens me to see the harm you do to some of these people who are honestly searching.  Friends, have the courage to see beyond this framework of concepts and ideas to see that there is a deep and real truth here that is beyond any understanding, any knowing, any experience.  The heart of this is simple, profound, and beyond any words, but it requires first and foremost love for yourself beyond all limits.  A love so strong it unifies you in a way YOU could never do, but that can only happen through grace and surrender.  Frank Yang did this, for real.  So have many others.  Listen to them, open your heart, and follow that feeling inside you that resists.  The feeling of resistance will lead you deeper and deeper.  Follow it, accept it, allow it, love it and surrender, again and again.  Look, and truly see <3

Edited March 2, 2023 by Flyboy

[UnbornTao]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:02 PM, Flyboy said:

As someone that understands both Frank and Leo deeply, I can just say one thing: Leo is the one that is full of shit. 

Ha. Don't be too quick to assume understanding. If you hold it as merely understanding their words, OK then. Still, it sounds like your cup is full.

Edited March 3, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Flyboy]

@UnbornTao You didn't even read my post then.  For what it's worth, I've watched almost all of his 500 videos and read dozens of his books, and done many psychedelics, so I'd say I have an idea.  I've also meditated for thousands of hours, nearly died from a major illness, and read and explored far beyond Leo AFTER having understood the body of his work.  I once believed him, but eventually came to my own conclusions, and I only offer them here because I believe many people desperately need to hear them.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Flyboy

[The Mystical Man]

16 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

As someone that understands both Frank and Leo deeply, I can just say one thing: Leo is the one that is full of shit.  Sorry dude, you have gone way off the deep end into a narcissistic rabbit hole centered around your own deepest conditioning, the desire to know.  And of course the irony is that the desire to know is why you cannot know.  The desire to understand is why you don't understand.

The way you talk about Frank and the rest of spirituality betrays a deep ignorance of what any of it is about or how any of it works.  You did so fucking little of the work yourself that you never even got a taste of what is even being pointed to before you took psychedelic easy street.  Like your 10 day retreats?  Such a joke.  You checked your phone and cooked yourself big meals and filmed birds and made videos.  That is not a meditation retreat.  You constantly berate people to "do the work" when it has always been YOU that can't do the work, it has always been YOU that is stuck in concepts and contractions.  You are lazy and selfish, and always have been.  The sad part is that you are too inauthentic to truly admit this to yourself, which you have avoided by generating up this massive scaffolding of "work" that is really just a giant pile of bullshit that you hide behind.  You are very nearly schizophrenic in the way that you are disconnected from life, other people, embodied reality, and the sheer presence of being... lost in a web of concepts and "trust me I tripped hard" beliefs, none of which are even close to the Truth.  Every post you make is fraught with contraction, anger, pettiness, and this shriveled sniveling ego that sucks itself off with every word.  I see your suffering.  You suffer deeply, and the harder into this you go the worse it gets.

Were you not the cult leader of this unfortunate gang, I'd feel really sorry and compassionate for you.  But it deeply saddens me to see the harm you do to some of these people who are honestly searching.  Friends, have the courage to see beyond this framework of concepts and ideas to see that there is a deep and real truth here that is beyond any understanding, any knowing, any experience.  The heart of this is simple, profound, and beyond any words, but it requires first and foremost love for yourself beyond all limits.  A love so strong it unifies you in a way YOU could never do, but that can only happen through grace and surrender.  Frank Yang did this, for real.  So have many others.  Listen to them, open your heart, and follow that feeling inside you that resists.  The feeling of resistance will lead you deeper and deeper.  Follow it, accept it, allow it, love it and surrender, again and again.  Look, and truly see <3

I enjoyed reading this penetrating piece of writing.

[puporing]

Do not use the past to judge the Son of God, for you will not see him truly. And this too is but one of the ego's inventions to keep you trapped in your reality.

 

[Nilsi]

24 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

@UnbornTao You didn't even read my post then.  For what it's worth, I've watched almost all of his 500 videos and read dozens of his books, and done many psychedelics, so I'd say I have an idea.  I've also meditated for thousands of hours, nearly died from a major illness, and read and explored far beyond Leo AFTER having understood the body of his work.  I once believed him, but eventually came to my own conclusions, and I only offer them here because I believe many people desperately need to hear them.

Leo is the only spiritual "teacher" I'm aware of that has some serious brains, is open-minded and is willing to question his conclusions relentlessly.

That's why he has such a holistic and deep understanding of reality, whereas people like Frank Yang are like the college professor types that spend all their careers investigating one petty corner of reality that they end up knowing extremely well - while completely missing the forest for the trees.

If you investigate that same corner of reality, of course your experience will match his.

Stop embarassing yourself.