PUA to Incel pipeline? Why does this happen?

[vindicated erudite]

Does anybody have opinions on this twitter thread? 

From my perspective, understanding why so many men decided to transition from PUA to blackpill may be the first step to figuring out how to get men out of the blackpill. 

Here are 2 graphs you should be paying attention to from that Twitter thread:

Edited February 5, 2023 by vindicated erudite

[Raze]

YouTube banned many of the popular PUA channels, and the largest, simple pickup and RSD both shut down to avoid backlash.

the current PUA channels get repressed by the the social media algorithms because journalists made hit pieces on them and google doesn’t want the negative backlash.

now when a guy looks up dating help the algorithm promotes blackpill or redpill content.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Raze

[vindicated erudite]

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

YouTube banned many of the popular PUA channels, and the largest, simple pickup and RSD both shut down to avoid backlash.

the current PUA channels get repressed by the the social media algorithms because journalists made hit pieces on them and google doesn’t want the negative backlash.

now when a guy looks up dating help the algorithm promotes blackpill or redpill content.

Both are alternatives are worse than PUA. PUA needs a new face tbh.

[bloomer]

@vindicated erudite

Incels take up some PUA class thinking they’ll learn some technique or skill for how to pick up girls because they think it’s about personality and charisma. The good looking guys get girls for doing the technique, maybe the regular looking guys do, the ugly ones doing the exact same technique don’t get the girl but the good looking guys do. So they realise that it’s not about the technique or skill really, it’s more about who’s doing the technique. So they realise that a large amount of PUA is a scam and many of the supposed artists are hucksters. 
 

[vindicated erudite]

5 hours ago, bloomer said:

@vindicated erudite

Incels take up some PUA class thinking they’ll learn some technique or skill for how to pick up girls because they think it’s about personality and charisma. The good looking guys get girls for doing the technique, maybe the regular looking guys do, the ugly ones doing the exact same technique don’t get the girl but the good looking guys do. So they realise that it’s not about the technique or skill really, it’s more about who’s doing the technique. So they realise that a large amount of PUA is a scam and many of the supposed artists are hucksters. 
 

A significant amount of incels have autism which should be a contributing factor to why they make PUA work. 

I agree PUA is scammy however I think that women rely on looks when there's nothing else for them to work with thus would be the case in a cold approach scenario which is why PUA definitely benefits more attractive looking guys.

[Chives99]

although the internet is incredible to isolated people, I think its made them even more isolated, look on the outside at everyones happy lives on social media, your left out, you dont belong, you're a misfit , thats the message it gives, I dont recommend islolated people should social media too much as it will make them feel worthless and miserable and start lashing by creating toxic philosophies. I wish they realised that the universe loves them. they're hurting and need help

[Chives99]

23 minutes ago, vindicated erudite said:

A significant amount of incels have autism which should be a contributing factor to why they make PUA work. 

I agree PUA is scammy however I think that women rely on looks when there's nothing else for them to work with thus would be the case in a cold approach scenario which is why PUA definitely benefits more attractive looking guys.

I have autism and i used to complain a lot about girls not liking me, because my mates would rub it  in my face which was  cruel , but with autism theres always this need to pushback as we feel we're  seperate from them and dont belong, I feel like people, should be nicer to autistic people love would cure them

Edited February 6, 2023 by Chives99

[vindicated erudite]

20 minutes ago, Chives99 said:

although the internet is incredible to isolated people, I think its made them even more isolated, look on the outside at everyones happy lives on social media, your left out, you dont belong, you're a misfit , thats the message it gives, I dont recommend islolated people should social media too much as it will make them feel worthless and miserable and start lashing by creating toxic philosophies. I wish they realised that the universe loves them. they're hurting and need help

I agree with this.

18 minutes ago, Chives99 said:

I have autism and i used to complain a lot about girls not liking me, because my mates would rub it  in my face which was  cruel , but with autism theres always this need to pushback as we feel we're  seperate from them and dont belong, I feel like people, should be nicer to autistic people love would cure them

I don't think it's over for someone if they have autism. People can be quiet accepting of neurodivergents once they know somebody is autistic and know how to take their needs into account.

[Chives99]

@vindicated erudite  some people are cruel and think that they should be seperate from society, but people have plenty of family members that are autistic and can make allowances for them and  have understanding that they are going to make mistakes, love would help them

[something_else]

A large part of it is lack of healthy masculine dating role models, combined with social isolation, combined with people’s tendency to play the victim instead of try to enact change.

[Chives99]

@something_else in my country secondary schools are given lectures too  teenager boys about why andrew tate is toxic and how they can find healthy relationships by respecting women

[something_else]

8 minutes ago, Chives99 said:

@something_else in my country secondary schools are given lectures too teenager boys about why andrew tate is toxic and how they can find healthy relationships by respecting women

That's good. I feel like that advice might be too wholesome though. Kind of like if you ask ChatGPT for dating advice. You get very tame, watered down advice.

Or perhaps it actually is good, I have no idea, that's just my instinct. Either way, it's a step in the right direction.

[Emerald]

My guess is that a significant portion of dating and relationship advice that’s geared towards men is counterproductive. I’ve heard some things and known right away that the guys who take the advice will struggle with forming relationships with women.

Like the Andrew Tate kind of stuff… it’s not actually going to get you success with women. It will actually chase most of them off.

And many PUA type entrepreneurs want to create a revolving door where they can rile men up with stories about how they can be so successful with women with their methods.

And they share this with a dose of misogyny to make the man feel better about himself just for being a man. So, it becomes a self-soothing echo chamber.

Then he buys some course or product and tries it and is unsuccessful.

But he returns to the Andrew Tate-like guy to grouse about women rejecting him and to self-soothe. And he buys another product, attends another seminar, etc.

Then he goes back out and is unsuccessful. And he comes back to the self-soothing echo chamber.

And eventually after all that failure, he ends up in some Black Pill entrepreneur’s funnel who will convince him that he’s hopeless and worthless.

And he’ll then pay money to have these Black Pill entrepreneurs rate his face for signs of ugliness and other such monetizable trauma responses.

The whole thing turns into one big grift to extract money from men and to continue extracting money from them by keeping them purposefully unsuccessful.

If men actually became good at talking to women, these guys would go out of business.

So, they convince men that their methods work when they don’t. And they brainwash them into believing things about women and relationships that aren’t true or helpful.

And if a woman tries to warn this guy that his paradigm is off… these entrepreneurs have those bases covered. They’ll say, “Don’t ask a fish how to catch it.”

And this inoculates the victims of these schemes from ever questioning their paradigm… because the paradigm (though unsuccessful) weaves a story for them where they can feel superior and better than. It gives them a shield from their soul sickness.

[vindicated erudite]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

My guess is that a significant portion of dating and relationship advice that’s geared towards men is counterproductive. I’ve heard some things and known right away that the guys who take the advice will struggle with forming relationships with women.

Like the Andrew Tate kind of stuff… it’s not actually going to get you success with women. It will actually chase most of them off.

And many PUA type entrepreneurs want to create a revolving door where they can rile men up with stories about how they can be so successful with women with their methods.

And they share this with a dose of misogyny to make the man feel better about himself just for being a man. So, it becomes a self-soothing echo chamber.

Then he buys some course or product and tries it and is unsuccessful.

But he returns to the Andrew Tate-like guy to grouse about women rejecting him and to self-soothe. And he buys another product, attends another seminar, etc.

Then he goes back out and is unsuccessful. And he comes back to the self-soothing echo chamber.

And eventually after all that failure, he ends up in some Black Pill entrepreneur’s funnel who will convince him that he’s hopeless and worthless.

And he’ll then pay money to have these Black Pill entrepreneurs rate his face for signs of ugliness and other such monetizable trauma responses.

The whole thing turns into one big grift to extract money from men and to continue extracting money from them by keeping them purposefully unsuccessful.

If men actually became good at talking to women, these guys would go out of business.

So, they convince men that their methods work when they don’t. And they brainwash them into believing things about women and relationships that aren’t true or helpful.

And if a woman tries to warn this guy that his paradigm is off… these entrepreneurs have those bases covered. They’ll say, “Don’t ask a fish how to catch it.”

And this inoculates the victims of these schemes from ever questioning their paradigm… because the paradigm (though unsuccessful) weaves a story for them where they can feel superior and better than. It gives them a shield from their soul sickness.

Bookmarked. 

[Ulax]

On 05/02/2023 at 9:22 PM, bloomer said:

@vindicated erudite

Incels take up some PUA class thinking they’ll learn some technique or skill for how to pick up girls because they think it’s about personality and charisma. The good looking guys get girls for doing the technique, maybe the regular looking guys do, the ugly ones doing the exact same technique don’t get the girl but the good looking guys do. So they realise that it’s not about the technique or skill really, it’s more about who’s doing the technique. So they realise that a large amount of PUA is a scam and many of the supposed artists are hucksters. 
 

@bloomer I know some rather genetically unblessed guys who did very well from pickup

[ValiantSalvatore]

I dunno I liked the David DeAngelo online-course as it seems to me very blue-yellow pilled, I looked at the current dating scene and most of it that is somewhat clear I'd frame as orange pill, as it's very optimization based, and is not truely holistic, also women are included sometimes cherrypicked. This is nout about politics though, more about having clean sources and even without PUA knowledge guys, can be pretty toxic and virtue as well as vanity are two different things imo.

I noticed how this goes a little out of hand, where a chinese guy I just got to know said "white girls are racist no?", I know my humour is hellacious at times. Still the orange pill would benefit him a lot, so to speak with more developed humans the issue would not exist. Also I find the orange pill partially exhausting, as it's about a numbers game, while this is true. Finding strategies and inner game that works. 

I don't think many do this to integrate this in a vision of themselves that is not "hyper-masculine", I'd still like to see vulnerabillity game from a jacked guy. To see the difference. 

I think toxic masculinity has been on the rise since Covid-19? Even in South-Korea in their political landscape etc. was shaped by this. The unfortunate spiral truth is it's a numbers game and it takes skill & competence to get good with women. When you listen to Andrew Tate for dating advice, I personally feel you have to be partially delusional, at the sametime men relate to it because it validates some masculine worldview, that I personally think is stupid. I would prefer someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger to be seen as a masculine man, instead of Andrew Tate. Yet from going out I know a lot of guys like it because it's funny and toxic, and then act with well where is your non-judgement now? 

I just can't watch it I am to influenceable, the dating advice I got is pretty good, it takes just a lot of practice and most of the priority to build a nuclear family as it's their desire to do so. Beign a low value guy (no prolific future) and also seeing how a lot of "assholes" get the girl. I've read some stuff, where they explain it's mostly about assertivness and needs, and to not be that guy. 

Ex: I was out with a friend who is like super nice and loving and well-off possibly millionair (2w3) (I don't usually ask this stuff), beign out with the gucci bag kids so to speak, I see a very attractive girl, guy comes see her as her equity, she had to scream him away with her friends (drunk) they all show him the middle finger as the biggest bouncer packs him at the neck and throws him out, I approached her afterwards as I know I am not like this, and she seemed to calm down, and this must seem to have happend more often (by my observations), my approach was somewhat okay? Yet I am newbie I did not even approach 10 girls I think and I almost got laid and received petting in the club (obviously as I work on myself). Anyway! Afterwards my friend who is super nice and loving (he hates this sh*t) described above, slept with her I had to laugh at how good he is, yet he is basically blessed by enviroment and just looks, (not height) and has very good character also, he just sees a lot more thanks to experience, his best friend is quiet toxic imo, yet he had a pretty rough upbringing and still is like super-nice, just to much zeaolot. 

When incels are rising, it sort of explains why my mind is corrupted by this stuff without looking at it and the Andrew Tate projections (Strategist perception...) many women who are not very well educated are imo in an blue/orange paradigm with Green values, dictated by culture, and otherwise worse. At least here in Northern Europe. 

I think women should point out that Andrew Tate is unlikeable and disassociate from him, instead of showing up with him. This is where I see someone like Owen Cook and this whole Orange/green pill type LC's.... is what people want to some level.

Obviously, I am inventing some stuff as nobody carries this flag so to speak. The rise of Andrew Tate without looking at any of it made me also more toxic just by beign a man, I don't know why same goes for incels. 

Andrew Tate for me on some level is sort of an incel. If the guy ever had spiritual sex, I doubt he'd be on that kind of scheming. It's all image and vanity, nothing virtues. The only virtue about is the authentic desire even if it's dark...

Edited February 8, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[ZenAlex]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

My guess is that a significant portion of dating and relationship advice that’s geared towards men is counterproductive. I’ve heard some things and known right away that the guys who take the advice will struggle with forming relationships with women.

Like the Andrew Tate kind of stuff… it’s not actually going to get you success with women. It will actually chase most of them off.

And many PUA type entrepreneurs want to create a revolving door where they can rile men up with stories about how they can be so successful with women with their methods.

And they share this with a dose of misogyny to make the man feel better about himself just for being a man. So, it becomes a self-soothing echo chamber.

Then he buys some course or product and tries it and is unsuccessful.

But he returns to the Andrew Tate-like guy to grouse about women rejecting him and to self-soothe. And he buys another product, attends another seminar, etc.

Then he goes back out and is unsuccessful. And he comes back to the self-soothing echo chamber.

And eventually after all that failure, he ends up in some Black Pill entrepreneur’s funnel who will convince him that he’s hopeless and worthless.

And he’ll then pay money to have these Black Pill entrepreneurs rate his face for signs of ugliness and other such monetizable trauma responses.

The whole thing turns into one big grift to extract money from men and to continue extracting money from them by keeping them purposefully unsuccessful.

If men actually became good at talking to women, these guys would go out of business.

So, they convince men that their methods work when they don’t. And they brainwash them into believing things about women and relationships that aren’t true or helpful.

And if a woman tries to warn this guy that his paradigm is off… these entrepreneurs have those bases covered. They’ll say, “Don’t ask a fish how to catch it.”

And this inoculates the victims of these schemes from ever questioning their paradigm… because the paradigm (though unsuccessful) weaves a story for them where they can feel superior and better than. It gives them a shield from their soul sickness.

100%

Incels spend way too much time reading fucking books about socialising and dating when what they should do is just go outside and talk to people.

Social experience is what you need. Eventually you'll learn what to do.

None of the charismatic guys who are good with women I know ever read books about how to talk to women, they were just socially experienced from youth and you just learn through trial and error IRL.

TL;DR Stop reading about life too much and go out and experience it. Then you will know what to do. 

I think they simply lack confidence and are afraid of failing and want the perfect strategy. THey need to be prepared to accept fucking things up and embarrassing themselves and learning from their mistakes.

[something_else]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

My guess is that a significant portion of dating and relationship advice that’s geared towards men is counterproductive. I’ve heard some things and known right away that the guys who take the advice will struggle with forming relationships with women.

Like the Andrew Tate kind of stuff… it’s not actually going to get you success with women. It will actually chase most of them off.

And many PUA type entrepreneurs want to create a revolving door where they can rile men up with stories about how they can be so successful with women with their methods.

And they share this with a dose of misogyny to make the man feel better about himself just for being a man. So, it becomes a self-soothing echo chamber.

Then he buys some course or product and tries it and is unsuccessful.

But he returns to the Andrew Tate-like guy to grouse about women rejecting him and to self-soothe. And he buys another product, attends another seminar, etc.

Then he goes back out and is unsuccessful. And he comes back to the self-soothing echo chamber.

And eventually after all that failure, he ends up in some Black Pill entrepreneur’s funnel who will convince him that he’s hopeless and worthless.

And he’ll then pay money to have these Black Pill entrepreneurs rate his face for signs of ugliness and other such monetizable trauma responses.

The whole thing turns into one big grift to extract money from men and to continue extracting money from them by keeping them purposefully unsuccessful.

If men actually became good at talking to women, these guys would go out of business.

So, they convince men that their methods work when they don’t. And they brainwash them into believing things about women and relationships that aren’t true or helpful.

And if a woman tries to warn this guy that his paradigm is off… these entrepreneurs have those bases covered. They’ll say, “Don’t ask a fish how to catch it.”

And this inoculates the victims of these schemes from ever questioning their paradigm… because the paradigm (though unsuccessful) weaves a story for them where they can feel superior and better than. It gives them a shield from their soul sickness.

I agree almost entirely. Most guys are bad with women because they're criminally under-socialised and most of the advice by PUA types doesn't really solve that. Too much theory and ideas when really the solution is to just to leave your cheeto-dust covered mancave, go out and meet tons of people.

The only thing I perhaps disagree with is that often the dating advice I've been given by women that I know has been very ehhh, wholesome. I don't think most members of either sex are particularly good at giving dating advice to the other sex.

Also, welcome back 

Edited February 8, 2023 by something_else

[Karmadhi]

I have seen a few incel channels that tried PUA and then became Incels. 

What I noticed is that they tried maybe 100 approaches, it did not work out and they gave up.

I took Leo 440 approaches to get his first lay, many many people would have quit, become blackpill and blame their looks or whatever at that point.

Lack of perseverance is a big factor among incels.

So they try pua stuff but because of their bad social skills or bad appearance they do not get laid on the first 50 approaches as youtube makes it seem and they are like "fuck this, im too ugly, girls are trash" etc and become blackpilled.

 

[Consept]

I think the black pill provides a path of least resistance which in any circumstance most people will take an easier path. With pick-up its actually hard work depending on your starting point, there are some PUAs that overpromise even and when guys dont see results they either have anger toward the PUAs or hate themselves because they feel like nothing works and this is when the blackpill can almost seem like a life saver for them because it absolves them of all personal responsibility. It tells them its not their fault because women are shallow and they will never want them because their eye shape is almond or not almond or whatever. 

I wouldnt even say PUAs are the best to follow but i think, if it doesnt get too toxic it can at least be a starting point and be progress for the guy. As someone else said the whole PUA industry was decimated by #metoo and things like that. But i dont think its a bad thing because now if you do want to be on youtube helping men you actually have to bring healthy content and i think its great to see people like Dr Tian and Hamza or the younger guys who do actually provide healthy advice for men. Its not going to be as popular as things like the black pill because it requires that you do a lot of work but its definitely as step in the right direction.