Arthogaan

Is Suffering metaphysically required and intertwined to Wisdom/Spiritual Growth?

33 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Moksha said:

What is the difference between being childish and child-like? A lifetime of suffering seen clearly. The child is like an animal, able to experience life directly but still naïve. Wisdom only arises after losing yourself in the torment of the mind, and emerging on the other side. You still see clearly like a child, but the lessons of your suffering take you deeply into realizing God within.

Psychedelics are not necessary for enlightenment. They can provide poignant insights into your true nature, but when they wear off you still have to do the spiritual work of disintegrating the psyche. Psychedelics alone will not dissolve attachment to aversions and desires.

 

These two statements are true but I would qualify them. what you say about the child is very real, we have to fall into the labyrinth of the ego to get out of it again. I wouldn't say we get lost in desire and rejection, but in meaning. the purity of the child is corrupted when he begins to give meaning to things. what torments you is meaning, not fear or attachment. the child is full of fear and attachments and yet he is direct, pure. but being so, he is not really realized in god.

about psychedelics, it happens that without them the complete disappearance of the human is impossible. god is an infinite abyss, to be god, the human must disappear. you will never be completely if there is something of the human. you can have glimpses, but never the full, absolute depth of what you are. You could understand the infinity of the present moment, but became infinite is completely different 

 

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12 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

the child is full of fear and attachments and yet he is direct, pure. but being so, he is not really realized in god.

A newborn child has no conceptual fears, only what it is biologically programmed to fear. It is entirely present, rather than clinging to conditioned memories of desires and aversions. Over the course of our lives we construct countless samskaras, or mental impressions, in an attempt to preserve experiences which seem to have kept us safe in the past, and to avoid experiences which seem to have threatened us. It is all meaningless clutter which has no bearing on what is actually happening in this moment, and sabotages our ability to see.

Until we deal with the detritus we have collected over the years, by realizing that it is neither helpful nor defining, we will continue being a slave in the prison of our own making. The mind is a beautiful but stubborn beast. Often it requires tremendous suffering before it finally relents to being tamed.

Meditation has tremendous power to help you realize your true nature, and the transience of thoughts, emotions, and sensations. Psychedelics can drastically amplify your insights, and provide a forum for applying the discipline developed in meditation. Still, when the effects wear off you are left with the conceptual hoard that was there before you took them. Suffering returns, and will continue to torment you until you develop the capacity to remain awake regardless of, and more profoundly because of, the tidal waves life sends at you.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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12 hours ago, Moksha said:

It is all meaningless clutter which has no bearing on what is actually happening in this moment, and sabotages our ability to see.

Yes, more or less agreed. imo the conceptual mind is not so much related to fear and attachment, but to meaning, even the base is fear, need to survive. meaning and not fear is the glue that makes up the collective ego. the more years of life, the more saturation of meaning. Today it is fast, at 16 or 17 you are already saturated and the perception of reality becomes mental. all filtered through the sieve of meaning. to be able to deactivate meaning at will is to become stuck in the present, like an animal. It is the beauty of existence, but there is still fear if there is a threat. not psychological fear because that is mental, ideas. getting this is really not that difficult, you have to understand what the meaning is: something imaginary. software to make the human group efficient and maximize their options. the meaning is extremely useful, you have to give it its place and use it efficiently. It is not meaningless, without it you would die. Our instinct is weak, we need the ego to survive. You can deactivate it for a few hours a day, that's the art. To achieve that, it's true that you have to overcome the fear. It's the fear that make you attached to the meaning. In addition, the meaning is imaginary but at the same time real. It is not the same to be a scammer than to be honest. to get rid of the meaning you must first align it with the truth. Or that is what I realized.

psychedelics is something else. It's not just a momentary glimpse, it's changing the energy patterns that make up your structure. it goes beyond dissolving your conceptual ego. it breaks your essential, genetic structure, for a while. then it reforms but it is more plastic, and the perception that has occurred is indelible and the barriers that being human suppose become weaker. the barriers are more than conceptual. an animal continues to perceive the finite, even though it has no concepts

Edited by Breakingthewall

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15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

the barriers are more than conceptual. an animal continues to perceive the finite, even though it has no concepts

Animals don't cling to pains from the past or worry about being hurt in the future. They are not bound by the self-built prison of samskaras. Suffering is the result of trying to force the universe to comply with your desires, and complaining when it doesn't. Animals experience pain and pleasure, but because they aren't attached to experiences, they don't suffer. 

As humans we have the disability to suffer, and the superability to rise above suffering by realizing our true nature. It is the curse and gift of evolution. We are the most miserable of creatures before awakening, and the most joyous after.

I agree with you that thinking is not inherently harmful. To the contrary, the brain is absolutely brilliant and can increase the quality and longevity of our lives. This power is harnessed when you are at the helm of your thoughts, rather than at their mercy.

Research supports the ability of psychedelics to increase the plasticity of the mind. It has enormous potential for treating mental disorders like severe anxiety, depression, and PTSD. It also provides a framework for enhancing the quality of life in general.

I am not anti-psychedelics. I believe that psychedelics alone cannot develop the wisdom and discipline necessary for enlightenment and the end of suffering. As Ram Dass said, it is the difference between seeing God in a psychedelic vision and being God by developing unconditional love.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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On 1/24/2023 at 2:50 PM, Inliytened1 said:

Leo claims you can just pop psychedelics and wake up.

You can. But you ain't escaping suffering that way.

If you didn't suffer it would be really hard for you to navigate life. Suffering is a powerful control mechanism and teacher.

It's possible to learn without suffering  but most people would not learn the lesson deep enough.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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8 hours ago, Moksha said:

I believe that psychedelics alone cannot develop the wisdom and discipline necessary for enlightenment and the end of suffering. As Ram Dass said, it is the difference between seeing God in a psychedelic vision and being God by developing unconditional love.

 

They are a tool, but very important. psychological suffering can be completely eradicated. when you suffer, you are causing that suffering. It is not something that you can stop doing at will, you have to understand many things very deeply. what you are, what human existence is, what others are. To really understand this, in my opinion requires psychedelics, without them it is almost impossible. with a deep understanding, you can deactivate the mental processes that make you suffer. suffering is the path to awakening, because to stop suffering you have to wake up completely 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

They are a tool, but very important. psychological suffering can be completely eradicated. when you suffer, you are causing that suffering. It is not something that you can stop doing at will, you have to understand many things very deeply. what you are, what human existence is, what others are. To really understand this, in my opinion requires psychedelics, without them it is almost impossible. with a deep understanding, you can deactivate the mental processes that make you suffer. suffering is the path to awakening, because to stop suffering you have to wake up completely

I agree that suffering can be eradicated, but don't believe psychedelic insights are sufficient to accomplish that. You can have increasingly profound realizations, but when the drug wears off the realizations become just another contrived memory. The key to ending suffering is learning to flow in this moment, rather than depending on a transient catalyst like psychedelics to flow for you. It cannot teach you wisdom and discipline. Enlightenment is the perpetual state of being, without requiring an external stimulus to take you there.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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2 hours ago, Moksha said:

don't believe psychedelic insights are sufficient to accomplish that. You can have increasingly profound realizations, but when the drug wears off the realizations become just another contrived memory.

20 hours ago, Moksha said:

 

 

Yes and not. true that it is not enough, the attitude, the work, must be total. Cover everything. you have to align with the truth perfectly. but don't underestimate the power of psychedelics when your attitude is right. they are magic. particles of pure magic left to chance in this dream. once you have left behind the addiction to the conceptual, they will open your mind, your heart, to infinity

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1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes and not. true that it is not enough, the attitude, the work, must be total. Cover everything. you have to align with the truth perfectly. but don't underestimate the power of psychedelics when your attitude is right. they are magic. particles of pure magic left to chance in this dream. once you have left behind the addiction to the conceptual, they will open your mind, your heart, to infinity

We agree that insights aren't enough for enlightenment. The work of deconstructing the personality, with its highly charged aversions and desires, still has to be done.

I don't underestimate psychedelics. I feel they have a place in spiritual development, for people that aren't precluded from using them for health reasons (psychotic disorders, manic bipolar disorder, etc.). However, I don't feel they are necessary for enlightenment. When you have awoken, it is less about chasing insights than about developing the humility and integrity to stay awake. The ravenous desire for deeper insights can actually become an attachment that hinders spiritual growth.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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Awakening is not an insight. It is a change in state of consciousness.

Insight may or may not come, but what's crucial is the change in state of consciousness.

You can have all the insights in the world, but if your state isn't correct, you won't be Awake.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Leo Gura I agree. Spiritual seekers sometimes believe that if they can just realize the right insight (no-self, the sameness of all beings, etc.) their lives will magically be transformed and they will no longer suffer. It doesn't work like that. Awakening is not about pursuing insights. It is aligning your awareness with your ultimate nature. When that happens, it's like Indiana Jones placing the Staff of Ra in the direct path of the sun:

indian jones light beam.jpg

The light floods through you, and it dissolves you into divinity. Enlightenment is about developing the capacity to remain aligned, so the light continuously flows, regardless of the apparent storm clouds looming on the horizon.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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@Arthogaan any damn fool will search for freedom when they are suffering. but the amount of intelligence and understanding it takes to go forth when everything is going well, to strive even when you are blissful and enjoying life is quite rare. that's why so few people really attain to actual spiritual realizations and the majority just go on discussing and share their views/opinions


just be here, if you can do it this moment you can do it the next moment

this is the now, now is all that is real, the truth is now, not your concept or experience, just this

is there suffering in this ? work to be done young jedi. me

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5 minutes ago, Cathal said:

@Arthogaan any damn fool will search for freedom when they are suffering. but the amount of intelligence and understanding it takes to go forth when everything is going well, to strive even when you are blissful and enjoying life is quite rare. that's why so few people really attain to actual spiritual realizations and the majority just go on discussing and share their views/opinions

Thats actually a cool insight I didn't think about. That there is a certain treshold that you are wise enough to have lessened the suffering greatly so there is less motivation to change. Only the few ones will continue to become wiser and wiser. Thanks.

Edited by Arthogaan

In the Vast Expanse everything that arises is Lively Awakened Awareness.

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