Carl-Richard

The Association for Spiritual Integrity — honor code of ethics for spiritual teachers

192 posts in this topic

22 hours ago, Nilsi said:

How can we ever move beyond blunt tools, if we can't imagine a future in which we have transcended them?

I'm convinced that this is a fruitful endeavor and not just utopian fantasies, but the line is quite blurry.

In any case, I'd rather give it my best shot and fail spectacularly than throw in the towel and go back to business as usual.

Why are you acting like finding the root solution for things is 1. such a radical thought, and 2. incompatible with symptomatic solutions?

It's the idea that we can drop everything else and invest everything in root solutions and thinking we'll get there which I'm calling utopian, not the attempt to find root solutions.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Why are you acting like finding the root solution for things is 1. such a radical thought and 2. incompatible with symptomatic solutions?

In a certain sense it is a quite radical endeavor. We're ultimately talking about God here.

I think the conception of symptomatic solutions is a rather poor one. You're not actually solving anything that way. If you have high blood pressure and you take some pills that mess up your kidneys, have you actually solved anything?

This whole paradigm is just intrinsically problematic, though I'm not sure what to do about it. 

Edited by Nilsi

“We are most nearly ourselves when we achieve the seriousness of the child at play.” - Heraclitus

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10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's the idea that we can drop everything else and invest everything in root solutions and thinking we'll get there which I'm calling utopian, not the attempt to find root solutions.

I don't think we should drop everything else, I would just like to stop calling everything else a solution.


“We are most nearly ourselves when we achieve the seriousness of the child at play.” - Heraclitus

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1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

I don't think we should drop everything else, I would just like to stop calling everything else a solution.

No, you just said you want to drop ethical codes. This is obviously looping at this point, but I feel that the "solution" thing you're doing is a language game. It's this simple: you don't want ethical codes, neither now nor tomorrow, but you want something else ("root solutions", whatever that is).

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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17 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

And that is where you lose me. This thread has done nothing but confirm my suspicion that ethical questions around spirituality is absolutely necessary. If a spiritual state was given nuclear codes, I would evacuate the planet faster than the members of Heaven's Gate.

Carl- Richard its like you refuse to see. Humanity has had a code of ethics for over 2000 years. The Code of Hamurabi and the Ten Commandments, and all these other codes Magna Carter, and all these other various laws and ordinances too many too count. Do you know how much ethical violations humanity has erected? None of them have stood!! In fact the ethical boards that are required to judge those violations also violate them!! 

Do you see? So what you are proposing has already been done!!! The Story of Adam and Eve LITERALLY tells the story of human history and its still happening right now!!! Its every POV arguing about what is right and wrong!!! Have you not realized how humanity has learned how to be more loving? From the contrast of being less loving!! All the pain, the turmoil, the documentaries and testimonials!!! That is how humanity has learned!!

For example the invention of the TV helped push white people into the civil rights movement because they could NO LONGER avoid the atrocious behavior that was being inflicted. Before that they could avert their gaze, which humans love to do when something uncomfortable happens. So you could erect ethics and society will do what they always do, which is play favorites because they are full of fear/judgment. 

You cannot control fear through more fear, its a never ending cycle, Eventually someone needs to reach a level where they desire to be as truthful and loving as they can be without the need to control anything. A code of ethics is a desire to control, once you want to control something....a battle for control begins. 

https://apnews.com/article/kristi-noem-south-dakota-872aa9adc02bdbe4c6147c671e91053e

Think about it, you don't trust people so you create a code of ethics. But then you need to trust the people you put in the ethics board to be free from corruption. BUT!!! How could you find out if the ethics board becomes corrupt? Who polices them? You will need another board to investigate them too!!! But!!! What if that other person is corrupt? Who polices them? And it goes on forever. You are looking for a ground, a solution, the truth is there is no solution!!! Any solution you deem even if it works will work for a time, then a new UNFORSEEN PROBLEM will happen again. 

This is why Spirituality exists, because humans keep thinking they can police themselves with rules, THEY CANNOT!!! They never have and never will!! Again...why do you not erect an ethic board for the jungle? You only erect ethics for humans!! Even worse, humans are out here being unethical about the environment!! We can kill more people by destroying the earth but you are concerned about ethics in Spirituality!!! So what happens if we become wonderfully ethical with each other in social situations but completely destroy our environment? You see? You see how silly this all is? Its just identity games!!! 


The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

Your ACTIONS REVEAL how you REALLY FEEL. Want TRUTH? Observe and ADMIT, do the OPPOSITE of what you usually do which is observe and DENY. - Razard86

Think about it.....Leo gave the best definition of the truth I ever heard...."The truth is what is..." so if that is the truth.... YOUR ACTIONS IN THE PRESENT ARE THE TRUTH!! It's what's happening....do you like what you see? Can you accept it? You are just a SENTIENT MIRROR, OBSERVING ITS REFLECTION..... can you accept what appears? -Razard86

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7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

No, you just said you want to drop ethical codes. This is obviously looping at this point, but I feel that the "solution" thing you're doing is a language game. It's this simple: you don't want ethical codes, neither now nor tomorrow, but you want something else ("root solutions", whatever that is).

My mind is not that rigid.

I hadn't thought these things through very deeply before, so in a sense I'm just exploring how far I can push it. I also conceded that we will always need to draw some lines. 

With that being said, I still believe you're operating in a broken paradigm that isn't adequate for finding good solutions to this and other problems.


“We are most nearly ourselves when we achieve the seriousness of the child at play.” - Heraclitus

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@Razard86 All your posts are just the same point repeated ad nauseum. "Woah dude, everything is relative".

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Razard86 All your posts are just the same point repeated ad nauseum. "Woah dude, everything is relative".

That's the point. Unless relativity is understood, every relative view will fight for infinity. That is what history shows, that is literally what this forum post is right now. Every disagreement is just disagreement between two relative identities. If you really want to understand the silliness of this, try to understand and take in every relative point of view that exists. 

You will start to realize why the ONLY solution is a raising of consciousness, and why suffering is often the only way for a relative point of view to become open-minded. Egos are severely stubborn and self-righteous. In fact self-righteousness and unworthiness are the two biggest drivers of fear and what you would call ego. 

Once you contemplate enough of on it and really open your mind to opposing points of view and understand from their vantage point you realize that the cycle will continue forever and is designed to TEACH THAT. This is why the only solution is love, because love doesn't care about being right, it doesn't care about obtaining everything, it cares about just the experience.

I have literally done field tests in my own life and I laugh because it works absolutely. If you have no agenda, and take on others agenda as your own and support and help them they instantly love you. If you drop all agenda wherever you go you will be loved. Why? Because egos want their agenda fulfilled, and can only act from a place of love once their agenda is fulfilled. Think of egos as starving animals that want to be filled before they can fill you up.

So if you are always full, then you fill others up and can slowly wake them up. Humans either become more loving through intense unbearable suffering, or overwhelming nurture and kindness. There is a distinct combination each individual ego needs to learn how to be less entitled.

Now you think creating rules and ethics will fix behavior? All it does is create law abiding assholes. You know those people right? They are selfish, rude, uncaring, but they pay their taxes and don't commit crimes so on paper they are "good citizens." Then they get married and traumatize their kids, and every now and then their shadow repressed parts come out even more. If they have any talent and ambition they gain some power and authority and then corrupt themselves and others in power through manipulating them through their selfish desires. You see?

How do you police selfishness? You cannot!!! Corruption is selfishness! If everyone is so got damn selfish corruption will always exist. This is an absolute! Selfish only wants what it can get for itself and whatever it identifies with. From the vantage point of selfishness if it doesn't align with what it wants its bad. That view is a corrupt view.

Edited by Razard86

The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

Your ACTIONS REVEAL how you REALLY FEEL. Want TRUTH? Observe and ADMIT, do the OPPOSITE of what you usually do which is observe and DENY. - Razard86

Think about it.....Leo gave the best definition of the truth I ever heard...."The truth is what is..." so if that is the truth.... YOUR ACTIONS IN THE PRESENT ARE THE TRUTH!! It's what's happening....do you like what you see? Can you accept it? You are just a SENTIENT MIRROR, OBSERVING ITS REFLECTION..... can you accept what appears? -Razard86

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2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Unless relativity is understood, every relative view will fight for infinity.

Nope. As long as relative views exist, they will fight for infinity. You think you understand relativity since you're lecturing me on it, right? Well, I think I understand relativity pretty well too, yet here we are fighting about it.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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@Razard86 we cant always act from a place of love...imagine someone steals something from you ...dont you call  the police to arrest him?....we sometimes have to be selfish for survival

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1 hour ago, Saraaa said:

@Razard86 we cant always act from a place of love...imagine someone steals something from you ...dont you call  the police to arrest him?....we sometimes have to be selfish for survival

The police are love.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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