It's here — the dreaded Destiny and MrGirl bridge nuke

[zurew]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

Yep, he was very good at trapping her

Would you say that it is a trap or manipulation, when you get told from the beginning how everything is going to go down (that he is self centered, he is very cold, he mostly cares about himself, and that he won't change etc)? - or in other words, lets say you have the same qualities Destiny has, and then you want to get into a new relationship. Given, that you don't want to change and that you won't change (and you told that to her from the beggining), how can you be less manipulative about it?

Btw just to be clear, I don't agree with this behaviour, because it can be very damaging for the other party.

[Carl-Richard]

39 minutes ago, zurew said:

Would you say that it is a trap or manipulation, when you get told from the beginning how everything is going to go down (that he is self centered, he is very cold, he mostly cares about himself, and that he won't change etc)?

You can tell a 20 year old a lot of things. That doesn't mean they'll understand it. It was not a trap in the sense of intentionally withholding information, rather he was not able to give full information. He also probably didn't tell her that on the first date. It was probably only after she was decently hooked and secured (after he felt it was going somewhere). So in that case, she was never in a neutral position. It was always a double-bind.

 

39 minutes ago, zurew said:

or in other words, lets say you have the same qualities Destiny has, and then you want to get into a new relationship. Given, that you don't want to change and that you won't change (and you told that to her from the beggining), how can you be less manipulative about it?

You can't. The solution is personal development and therapy. He needs desire to stop causing the hurt. To come to that place will be hard for him, just like the therapy process. The real problem is not the manipulation. It's how he chooses to act in general.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Arthogaan]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

She is stuck in a double-bind: her only choices are to either continue getting hurt, or get very hurt by leaving.

Well yes. And he is stuck in either:
1. changing the way that he wants to live life for the sake of relationship
2. living the life that he wants and loosing the relationship

That is the reality of relationships, people change and their priorities change. Him changing the way that he lives is not more right than Melina just accepting him for who he is. He communicates his boundaries, and they can just break up. No need to dramatize over it. No need to say who "should" change. You deciding that him dialing it down by 20% is more right and easier than her changing and accepting the "crazy" is arbitrary. No need to point who is guilty. There is no guilt.

 

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Destiny has the choice to stop hurting her, but he won't.

Okay, and the same way Melina constantly wanting him to change and demanding it from him is probably hurting him as well.

 

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

And by the way, "you can leave, I don't care" is of course manipulative, because he obviously cares,

He obviously cares, and I don't think he ever communicated that he does not. He cares but the freedom in his life may be more important and he has a right to make that choice.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Arthogaan

[Tyler Robinson]

Relationship is a contract of loyalty where you sign up to understand and respect the other person and to build harmony. You can't suddenly change and just expect the other person to either accept you or just leave. You wasted their time because they trusted you for harmony. 

If you're too self centered you just shouldn't trap others into relationships. 

 

[Arthogaan]

1 minute ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Relationship is a contract of loyalty where you sign up to understand and respect the other person and to build harmony.

100% agree.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

You can't suddenly change and just expect the other person to either accept you or just leave.

Destiny did not suddenly change. Melina admits that it's just like that from the very beginning. That her that changed and realized that she may not be comfortable with that way of living. He was very open from the beginning about how important the freedom is to him. 

And secondly, yes you can change any time in your life and then make your relationship contracts invalid. You always evolve (especially on a spiritual journey and actualization journey) and also of course there will be hurt. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

If you're too self centered you just shouldn't trap others into relationships. 

No need to call anyone self centered, it is the matter of priorities. Melina is self centered about her need to have peace in life. Destiny is self centered about having freedom and crazyness in his life.

No one is wrong.

[Carl-Richard]

29 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

Well yes. And he is stuck in either:
1. changing the way that he wants to live life for the sake of relationship
2. living the life that he wants and loosing the relationship

Yeah. He trapped himself in that situation. What a genius  

But let's be real: if you're in top 1% in terms of psycho-weirdo shit and you trap someone who is just a normal person; if anyone should change, it's you.

Let's say I seduce a woman, and I tell her after she has become absolutely obsessed by my psycho-charm that I like to do weird stuff in the basement by myself which I find extremely exciting, and she says that's ok, and then she finds out I'm raping kids and is absolutely horrified by this; legality aside, maybe I'm the one who should change? (Please make me a better hypothetical )

In other words, he has a pathological level of sensation seeking which he can fix, while she just wants to live a good life like any person. What could she change about herself? (And the child example is actually analogous, because his sensation seeking actually hurts other people as well; don't let me cite the 50 manifestos in the last year).

Edited November 17, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[ValiantSalvatore]

The transparency issues . Insight gone wrong, did not even watch 1 second of Twitch drama. I watched to mutch reality TV while playing halo .

American laws are amazing to contemplate . 

[Arthogaan]

49 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

But let's be real: if you're in top 1% in terms of psycho-weirdo shit and you trap someone who is just a normal person; if anyone should change, it's you.

Let's say I seduce a woman, and I tell her after she has become absolutely obsessed by my psycho-charm that I like to do weird stuff in the basement by myself which I find extremely exciting, and she says that's ok, and then she finds out I'm raping kids and is absolutely horrified by this; legality aside, maybe I'm the one who should change? (Please make me a better hypothetical )

I understand and to be fair if I were in his shoes I would do as you say, because I find Melina to be a treasure BUT I think it is unfair comparison for two reasons:

1. I don't think you can say that he seduced her. He is quite autistic and almost too transparent in his demeanor. She knew what she was getting into. At some point she also has to take responsibility to stay in the relationship that does not fit her.

2. Comparing raping kids to having the ability to have crazies in your life is also quite a stretch. I don't think he hurts people that much. It is more like because of this exposure to crazies he is always near when they themselves create hurt. People like Lav or Mr.Girl would create havoc anyway, Destiny is just here to watch and comment. I don't think that fair to say he hurts them. Especially because he is very transparent.


But whatever. Thats not really the issue.

Put yourself in the shoes of Destiny and lets just assume that you absolutely do not want to dial down the crazyness, because you believe it is your life purpose. But your wife demands it from you and she is hurt. But it is just something that you are not going to dial down because it is your brand and purpose. Now what? Should he like be purposefully mean to Melina to make her less dependent on him and make her breake up? Should he close himself to her? Or should he just be transparent that he is not going to dial it down and it is for Melina to decide what to do with it and as much as he loves life with her she is free to leave. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Arthogaan

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

You can tell a 20 year old a lot of things. That doesn't mean they'll understand it. It was not a trap in the sense of intentionally withholding information, rather he was not able to give full information. He also probably didn't tell her that on the first date. It was probably only after she was decently hooked and secured (after he felt it was going somewhere). So in that case, she was never in a neutral position. It was always a double-bind.

I probably agree, but a 1000 different examples could be given where the same logic could be applied, where one person in a relationship is valueing something that hurts the other person, and even though this person could change that behaviour, he won't, because he value doing that particular thing over the relationship (regardless of what he values, the same logic is applied).  This kind of double-bind problem could rise in a lot of relationships because almost no one will tell every bad thing about themselves on the first date and sometimes you couldn't even evaulate certain values as objectively wrong, because some people like it , others don't.

That being said, I agree that his instance is kind of unique, because he has a lot of sociopathic tendencies, just that combined with 'I won't negotiate' could be very damaging for any person, who has a romantic relationship with him or even a close friend relationship.

 

At the end of the day, the question is, where do we want to draw the line, when it comes to the causation of stress and suffering to your partner by doing things that are highly valuable to you. At what point you can say, that there is no negotiation when it comes to this particular thing, because its just essential to your life. I'm sure almost everyone has his/her own thing that is not really negotiable even if it causes suffering to your social life/relationships.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by zurew

[Danioover9000]

@Arthogaan @ValiantSalvatore @Carl-Richard @Tyler Robinson @zurew

   Can we all agree, that if you and your partner are too different with your stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and ego development, life experiences, other lines of development, worldviews, that it's best NOT TO PURSUE OPEN RELATIONSHIPS? Especially if you are addicted to drama making and chasing validation/attention, a bit too narcissistic/sociopathic/psychopathic? Open relationships just are too conveniently useful for Destiny to create and maintain drama and drama and drama.

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 Can we all agree, that if you and your partner are too different with your stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and ego development, life experiences, other lines of development, worldviews, that it's best NOT TO PURSUE OPEN RELATIONSHIPS?

In that case not just open relationships, but don't pursue any relationship where those things are applied. If your potential partner is very different to you in those things, your relationship won't work.

[Carl-Richard]

51 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

1. I don't think you can say that he seduced her. He is quite autistic and almost too transparent in his demeanor. She knew what she was getting into. At some point she also has to take responsibility to stay in the relationship that does not fit her.

The man is a seduction machine, intentional or not. And no, she did not know what kind of monsters he would be inviting into their life. Maybe not even he knew. So yeah, he trapped himself  However, the real issue is not whether he willfully set the trap. It's that he has the choice to diffuse it, but he refuses.

 

51 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

2. Comparing raping kids to having the ability to have crazies in your life is also quite a stretch.

That is why I asked for a better hypothetical  

 

51 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

I don't think he hurts people that much. It is more like because of this exposure to crazies he is always near when they themselves create hurt. People like Lav or Mr.Girl would create havoc anyway, Destiny is just here to watch and comment. I don't think that fair to say he hurts them. Especially because he is very transparent.

Apparent transparency aside, MrGirl has a point when he points out the power differential and how he has a lazer beam of harassment that follows wherever he puts his eyes. He can mouth half a word "rapi-" and that person is over with. And by the way, the problem is not mainly overt malice. It's more like a structural problem. Destiny's problem is his unwillingness to address that problem. It's like if the government refuses to do anything to solve structural racism, hence perpetuating racism: "the government isn't racist; real racism is when somebody is being directly racist towards you".

Edited November 17, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@zurew

1 minute ago, zurew said:

In that case not just open relationships, but don't pursue any relationship where those things are applied. If your potential partner is very different to you in those things, your relationship won't work.

   It's because open relationships, in this context of streaming, is very easy to create drama endlessly. It's especially dangerous if you don't identify the warning signs of sociopathy/narcissism/psychopathy in the other as well.

[Carl-Richard]

53 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

Put yourself in the shoes of Destiny and lets just assume that you absolutely do not want to dial down the crazyness, because you believe it is your life purpose. But your wife demands it from you and she is hurt. But it is just something that you are not going to dial down because it is your brand and purpose. Now what? Should he like be purposefully mean to Melina to make her less dependent on him and make her breake up? Should he close himself to her? Or should he just be transparent that he is not going to dial it down and it is for Melina to decide what to do with it and as much as he loves life with her she is free to leave. 

Yes, he is being perfectly logically consistent and is acting perfectly reasonable given his premise of not dialing down even 1% of his addiction to internet crazies. It's Destiny we're talking about here, the guy who concedes to stomping puppies to death in vegan debates. But is it a good premise have? Does he "oUgHt" to value internet crazies over his wife's emotional well-being? If he was a wise man, probably not, but he is a psycho-weirdo, so yeah.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Danioover9000 No idea what happened as I don't like following this drama personally. My relationship experiences have been rather odd, so dunno. The ideas in wild nights a book from David Deidra helped me to play with the ideas more. Although ultimately socializing and being a good/decent human being is more of a goal to me. I dunno I am so battered physically, I wish I would think less about sex with testosterone at times. 

Wild nights has some good stories about this lusting/chasing of experiences in a more conscious fashion. It has good lessons.

[Arthogaan]

12 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 Can we all agree, that if you and your partner are too different with your stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and ego development, life experiences, other lines of development, worldviews, that it's best NOT TO PURSUE OPEN RELATIONSHIPS?

1. They literally started dating due to the fact that they both did want open relationship.
2. You could also argue that if you "you and your partner are too different with your stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and ego development, life experiences, other lines of development, worldviews" it is best not to pursue ANY relationship.
But they perceived that they are on similiar enough level on this areas that the relationship is worth trying. But maybe it will turn out that they are not on the same level enough. And they will break up. Natural process of growth for both of them. That's how it is. No relationship ever survives eventually (death).

 

12 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Especially if you are addicted to drama making and chasing validation/attention, a bit too narcissistic/sociopathic/psychopathic? Open relationships just are too conveniently useful for Destiny to create and maintain drama and drama and drama.

Yeah whatever.

And maybe future fiance of Leo Gura will complain that he is too narcissistic that he chases psychedelics all his life and spends his life sitting on a cussion contemplating about impractical stuff instead of having quality time with her. So what?

 
Leo can choose to dedicate his life to psychedelic and spiritual crazyness if thats what he wants.
Destiny can choose to dedicate his life to content and drama commentary if thats what he wants.
If thats too much for their partners they can find another partner.

No guilt, no wrongs, let the man live the life how he wants.

[Carl-Richard]

15 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Arthogaan @ValiantSalvatore @Carl-Richard @Tyler Robinson @zurew

   Can we all agree, that if you and your partner are too different with your stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and ego development, life experiences, other lines of development, worldviews, that it's best NOT TO PURSUE OPEN RELATIONSHIPS? Especially if you are addicted to drama making and chasing validation/attention, a bit too narcissistic/sociopathic/psychopathic? Open relationships just are too conveniently useful for Destiny to create and maintain drama and drama and drama.

You should probably avoid associating with psychopaths, yes ? And if they're hurting those around them, the onus is on them to change.

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

You should probably avoid associating with psychopaths, yes ? And if they're hurting those around them, the onus is on them to change.

   I obviously agree, and also don't be business partners with them if it can be helped. Get really awkward fast.

[Danioover9000]

@Arthogaan

3 hours ago, Arthogaan said:

1. They literally started dating due to the fact that they both did want open relationship.
2. You could also argue that if you "you and your partner are too different with your stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types and ego development, life experiences, other lines of development, worldviews" it is best not to pursue ANY relationship.
But they perceived that they are on similiar enough level on this areas that the relationship is worth trying. But maybe it will turn out that they are not on the same level enough. And they will break up. Natural process of growth for both of them. That's how it is. No relationship ever survives eventually (death).

 

Yeah whatever.

And maybe future fiance of Leo Gura will complain that he is too narcissistic that he chases psychedelics all his life and spends his life sitting on a cussion contemplating about impractical stuff instead of having quality time with her. So what?

 
Leo can choose to dedicate his life to psychedelic and spiritual crazyness if thats what he wants.
Destiny can choose to dedicate his life to content and drama commentary if thats what he wants.
If thats too much for their partners they can find another partner.

No guilt, no wrongs, let the man live the life how he wants.

1. They both are using open relationships to justify their cheating tendencies and inadequacies in making relationships and their lack of commitment. Apparently, there was a sexual assault in Melina's earlier life that she's using open relationships to cope, and Destiny stomping on puppy's and being sociopathic and suppressing his emotions has led him to use open relationships as both a cope and drama creation.

2. I don't care for, nor am interested in debating or arguing for ANY relationship, and if that's all the interpretation you're getting from me, then that's on you, because that's clearly not what I meant but carry on. @Carl-Richard has been speaking specifically about this dynamic between the two as being codependent and asymmetrical against Melina more so than Destiny. I was broadly speaking, don't date too radically different people that don't have good chemistry to you. Common sense, don't date the guy or girl that doesn't speak your language, and has different morals than you, if you find it immoral to kill people, but they find it moral to kill people.

[Danioover9000]

@ValiantSalvatore

14 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@Danioover9000 No idea what happened as I don't like following this drama personally. My relationship experiences have been rather odd, so dunno. The ideas in wild nights a book from David Deidra helped me to play with the ideas more. Although ultimately socializing and being a good/decent human being is more of a goal to me. I dunno I am so battered physically, I wish I would think less about sex with testosterone at times. 

Wild nights has some good stories about this lusting/chasing of experiences in a more conscious fashion. It has good lessons.

   Thank you for sharing a resource here. I'll check it out later.