Asayake

High Carb Vegan Roasts Jordan Peterson - Thoughts on his diet advice?

22 posts in this topic

 

I thought this roast pretty funny, anyways...

 

I don't know if any of you are familiar with Durianrider, he's a vegan cyclist that I used to follow back when I was a vegan. His diet consists of very high carb(fruit, rice, sugar, veggies, occasional beans/avocado but for the most part extremly high carb and low protein/fats). He's a controversal character in the fitness community because he claims sugar is not bad but that it's fat eaten with sugar that causes insulin resistance and makes sugar bad.

He's of the opinion that diets low in carbohydrates deplete serotonin & dopamine and that people eating too many fats or shying away from sugars/carbs is the main cause of poor health, both physical and mental and that for example drug addiction can be solved with increased carb/reduced fat intake, as drugs are a replacement for the dopamine & serotonine he claims sugar would otherwise provide. He seems to think complex carbs are overrated, although he seems to think they are healthy he believe it's just better to eat something that contains more sugar. His main point is eat sugar & carbs, they're brain fuel. Don't eat fats, they lower the bodys capacity of utilizing sugar healthily.

He was overweight and addicted to drugs when he was younger but now he is undeniably one of the most fit vegan people on Youtube and one of the few of the OG vegan Youtubers to be still vegan and healthy. Those of us who were involved in the vegan Youtube community a few years ago might remember Youtubers such as Jon Venus, Tim Shieff or Vegan Gains. Many of the vegan Youtubers didn't make their vegan diets work in the end and either quit veganism entirely like Jon Venus or declined mentally like Vegan Gains. It's quite funny to me that the guy with the seemingly most stupid diet(fruits with sugar on top, corn syrup, white rice) is the seemingly longest standing vegan on the platform and still preforming well athletically despite being 45 years old. I never tried Durianriders diet advice, and I did fail my vegan diet.

I've been struggling lately with heartburn, indigestion, muscle twitching and just stress in the body for no apparent reason, I'm not stressed mentally, but my body is telling me something is wrong and it's sending me down rabbitholes of researching health.  And since most of my issues seem to be related to my digestion I'm thinking about trying Durianriders diet advice for a couple of weeks to see how it feels.

What are your thoughts on his diet advice, would it be wise to try it out despite the fact that it goes against all of the mainstream diet advice I've found? 

 

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44 minutes ago, Asayake said:

What are your thoughts on his diet advice, would it be wise to try it out despite the fact that it goes against all of the mainstream diet advice I've found? 

Isn't his diet the mainstream diet? People eat simple refined carbs in excess all the time. Although, I guess the distinction here is the word "advice", people are advised to eat less fat and sugar, but they don't.

Would it be wise? Maybe, if you pay close attention to how it affects your body. I'm not really against going through a trial and error process in order to find a solution to something. I've already lived most of my life eating simple carbs as most people do, so I have enough experience in that department, and I think most people do.

51 minutes ago, Asayake said:

He's of the opinion that diets low in carbohydrates deplete serotonin & dopamine and that people eating too many fats or shying away from sugars/carbs is the main cause of poor health, both physical and mental and that for example drug addiction can be solved with increased carb/reduced fat intake, as drugs are a replacement for the dopamine & serotonine he claims sugar would otherwise provide. He seems to think complex carbs are overrated, although he seems to think they are healthy he believe it's just better to eat something that contains more sugar. His main point is eat sugar & carbs, they're brain fuel. Don't eat fats, they lower the bodys capacity of utilizing sugar healthily.

Yes, eating a high carb meal will induce lots of dopaminergic pleasure for someone who maintains a carb-focused diet their entire life. It seems his point is that this type of pleasure can replace the pleasure brought by pharmaceutical drugs. So, replacing one form of pleasure, drugs, with another form of pleasure, high carbs.

If you've ever jumped into intermittent fasting from a diet which involves obsessive consumption of food and carbs, you will feel like you've been hit by a truck. However, I have been doing intermittent fasting combined with "low" carb for about 3 years now, and I can tell you that my physical and mental energy levels while doing a 24 hour fast are probably better than the majority of people who are constantly consuming carbs. So, what does this mean? It means that the body can adapt to things. This is important to consider.

The main problem here is that he doesn't seem to be considering the fact that your body is constantly adapting to things. If you consume lots of carbs your entire life, your reward system will rewire itself to accommodate excessive carbohydrate consumption. So now, your body has an extremely heavy bias towards carbohydrates, and this guy seems to be building his diet and ideology around that physiological bias, without considering the fact that your body can actually go through a tangible physical change which will allow it to gain more stable energy levels from other sources of fuel, like fat and protein. It's like looking at a person who is abstaining from weed and having severe withdrawals, and then saying "look, this is horrible for his mental and physical health, it's not worth abstaining from weed". 

I can remember the time where eating a McDonald's poutine literally felt like I was eating crack cocaine in food form. I would consider this to be a severe dopaminergic imbalance, not something I should rely on for mental and physical health and energy as this guy seems to be suggesting. It is possible to reach a level of physiology where you enjoy low carb foods as equally as high carb foods, if not even more. This is possible. The only reason your body craves high carb foods in the first place is because it is hopelessly dependent on it for energy, and it can't reliably utilize other sources of fuel because it has not adapted to them yet.

And also, I'm pretty sure Jordan Peterson has some autoimmune condition or something, similar to Leo's, which prevents him from eating what this guy is recommending to him. That's like the main reason why Jordan pursues a carnivore diet.

 


"God is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose it is not that you go through a logical solipsism, 'This is a rose, and roses are beautiful, so this must be beautiful.' The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts. On the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. It is something totally different from the idea of truth." -Osho

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1 hour ago, Asayake said:

I Those of us who were involved in the vegan Youtube community a few years ago might remember Youtubers such as Jon Venus, Tim Shieff or Vegan Gains. Many of the vegan Youtubers didn't make their vegan diets work in the end and either quit veganism entirely like Jon Venus or declined mentally like Vegan Gains.

Jon Venus quit the vegan diet and then came back. At least that’s the last point I remember. 
Vegan Gains declined mentally? 

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Sugar isn’t really bad for you. You just need to compensate with very nutritious food for the empty calories that sugar gives you. 

Also only carbs is obviously bs. You need some healthy fats and protein. You don’t need a ton but a bit is absolutely required for health. 
 

 

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I was vegan for good 3 years. In the beginning I was a complete moron, experimenting with a raw vegan diet in the hope that it would be the magic pill not only for my physical health but also psychological and spiritual, because mind and body is connected you know. Anyway I just had a lot of stomach pain and no energy. I switched to a more conventional approach after some time. The thing is that people hear about how healthy a vegan diet can be and expect magic. It’s not magic. You can get feel tired or get sick just like before and it’s neither the fault nor not the fault of the vegan diet. I constantly focused so much on my health and was so stressed out at every itch or tiredness or sign of sickness because I couldn’t and shouldn’t get sick because I was vegan I made myself sick with this shit. When I didn’t focus on my health (but still maintained decent health routinely) I felt so healthy all of a sudden. 
I did feel pretty good at the end of my vegan diet. I just switched back to vegetarian because I really wanted some milk protein and food for convenience. I could go back to veganism if I wanted to. 

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1 hour ago, Asayake said:

I've been struggling lately with heartburn, indigestion, muscle twitching and just stress in the body for no apparent reason, I'm not stressed mentally, but my body is telling me something is wrong and it's sending me down rabbitholes of researching health.  And since most of my issues seem to be related to my digestion I'm thinking about trying Durianriders diet advice for a couple of weeks to see how it feels.

You said in a previous post that you overtrain. That could be part of the reason. If you are overstressed your digestion also suffers. 
What is your diet like at the moment?

1 hour ago, Asayake said:

What are your thoughts on his diet advice, would it be wise to try it out despite the fact that it goes against all of the mainstream diet advice I've found? 
 

No, he is just some random dude. Just because it works for him doesn’t mean it works for you. If you don’t have a lot of knowledge about a subject you should look for authority figures that are most likely to tell the truth. That would be the WHO or a nutrition specialist for example. Of course you need personal experience as well and should experiment. 

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1 hour ago, Osaid said:

Isn't his diet the mainstream diet? People eat simple refined carbs in excess all the time. Although, I guess the distinction here is the word "advice", people are advised to eat less fat and sugar, but they don't.

It isn't excactly the mainstream diet because the mainstream diet is refined carbs with fats/oil and protein. According to Durianrider the high fat content in the mainstream diet is the problem, not the refined carbs. He says refined carbs digests quickly, lowers cortisol(which helps recovery and reduces stress in the body), increases dopamine and serotonine and supplies the body with energy for an active lifestyle. He doesn't cook anything in oil, he simply eats extremly high carb(literally fruits & sugar for breakfast, rice & veggies for lunch, fruit/sweet potatoes for dinner style meals) and is very avoidant of high fat foods in general. He thinks intermittent fasting is a cope to deal with the fact that high fat meals are taxing for the body to digest. He thinks there's no need to give the body time to digest/rest with something like a fast if you eat his style of high carb diet because according to him it's easy enough on the body to digest that the body can recover properly at the same time. He thinks people using caffeine for preworkouts etc. is a cope for adrenal fatigue that stems from having high cortisol levels from training that then isn't regulated properly because of too low carb intake. His advice is to use high cortisol to push oneself during training and then to eat a lot of sugar/carbs afterwards to plummet the cortisol levels and put the body into a relaxed state.

His advice is to eat more sugar and practically no fat/protein foods.

1 hour ago, Osaid said:

Would it be wise? Maybe, if you pay close attention to how it affects your body. I'm not really against going through a trial and error process in order to find a solution to something. I've already lived most of my life eating simple carbs as most people do, so I have enough experience in that department, and I think most people do.

Yeah, a trial and error process is what I've been going through these past weeks. I used to think Durianrider was just stupid but when you're struggling with health issues and you tried the conventional stuff you become more open minded to try new ideas. I've also ate a lot of simple carbs in my life but never without intake of protein and fats. When I was a vegan I used to cook everything in oil, I used to eat lentils, beans, chickpeas, tofu and other high protein plant based foods. I never tried relying heavily on refined carbs and excluding oils etc entirely. But recently I've been eating less carbs and had a bigger focus on protein, I don't know if this was the cause of my health issues but my health issues have definitely gotten worse eating this way.

 

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

Jon Venus quit the vegan diet and then came back. At least that’s the last point I remember. 
Vegan Gains declined mentally? 

Jon Venus quit the vegan diet, then he came back and recently he quit it again claiming that it caused him joint pain, indigestion, cramps and other health issues as well as causing his son poor dental health. It was a while since I watched Vegan Gains now but last time I watched him he said his mental health was worse than ever, super depressed and he was going on some new antidepressant to see if it would help. He is still a vegan though.  

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

Sugar isn’t really bad for you. You just need to compensate with very nutritious food for the empty calories that sugar gives you. 

Also only carbs is obviously bs. You need some healthy fats and protein. You don’t need a ton but a bit is absolutely required for health. 
 

 

That's what I thought too, but according to Durianrider he doesn't eat protein or fats at all. He consumes no oils, no animal foods, eats avocados but not on a regular basis. It really seems like he is mostly eating fruits, refined carbs, sugar, glucose syrup and some occassional avocados and nuts when he is dropping too low in bodyweight. His carb/protein/fat ratio is likely 90/10/10 if not even more carbs than that. But despite the fact he is ripped and has amazing cardio. Sure, he's not a bodybuilder by any means, but he's physically very fit for his age. He ran a 2:38 marathon on his weird all carb diet and he's not really a runner but a cyclist.

I realize his diet might not be the best for bodybuilding though, I'm reading Arnold Schwarzenegger autobiography atm and he recommends a lot of eggs, milk and meat. 

Edited by Asayake

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37 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I was vegan for good 3 years. In the beginning I was a complete moron, experimenting with a raw vegan diet in the hope that it would be the magic pill not only for my physical health but also psychological and spiritual, because mind and body is connected you know. Anyway I just had a lot of stomach pain and no energy. I switched to a more conventional approach after some time. The thing is that people hear about how healthy a vegan diet can be and expect magic. It’s not magic. You can get feel tired or get sick just like before and it’s neither the fault nor not the fault of the vegan diet. I constantly focused so much on my health and was so stressed out at every itch or tiredness or sign of sickness because I couldn’t and shouldn’t get sick because I was vegan I made myself sick with this shit. When I didn’t focus on my health (but still maintained decent health routinely) I felt so healthy all of a sudden. 
I did feel pretty good at the end of my vegan diet. I just switched back to vegetarian because I really wanted some milk protein and food for convenience. I could go back to veganism if I wanted to. 

I was vegan for almost 5 years but I never experimented with a raw vegan diet. Durianrider doesn't recommend a raw vegan diet, he thinks it's too hard to get enough calories completely raw without eating too much fats. Ultimately the vegan diet didn't work for me before, but I was more focused on high protein whole plant based foods and not so focused on high carb high calorie low fat intake. I dropped a lot of weight when I was a vegan.

37 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I constantly focused so much on my health and was so stressed out at every itch or tiredness or sign of sickness

This is pretty relateable for me right now. That's me. But not on a vegan diet just on a conventionally healthy diet. But I'm definitely getting a bit stressed out by unusual physical symptoms like twitching, I don't have any tiredness though. But I do have some problems sleeping. I think maybe I have too much cortisol from excercising and I'm not able to regulate it without a lot of carbs, that's why Durianrider caught my attention a bit in a video where he talked about how sufficient sugar/carbs will plummet cortisol levels.

29 minutes ago, Jannes said:

 

You said in a previous post that you overtrain. That could be part of the reason. If you are overstressed your digestion also suffers. 
What is your diet like at the moment?

No, he is just some random dude. Just because it works for him doesn’t mean it works for you. If you don’t have a lot of knowledge about a subject you should look for authority figures that are most likely to tell the truth. That would be the WHO or a nutrition specialist for example. Of course you need personal experience as well and should experiment. 

Yeah, I've toned down my training and it helps a bit. I went to the gym today for the first time in a week. I started out with 2 whole body workouts per week before but that still stressed me out a bit too much, Day A/Day B type split with only a few compound movements like the one you recommended in that thread. That's what I'm planning on doing right now because it seemed to stress my body out a bit less than what I was previously doing. But it still doesn't feel like I'm 100% like I was a few months before.

Right now I'm eating 1-2 meals per day. When I ate more meals than this my heartburn would become worse. I tried to manage my heartburn with Apple Cider Vinegar for a while and it did get rid off the heartburn but my body still didn't feel quite right, like I was having some sort of indigestion for hours after every meal instead of the heartburn. I eat stuff like Potatoes, Salmon, Kale, Quinoa, Spinach, Chicken Breast, Eggs, Tomatoes, Romaine Lettuce, Sardines, Pumpkin Seeds, Walnuts, Olive Oil, Whole wheat Pasta, Bananas, Kiwi fruits. This is my diet I swapped to after getting the symptoms, and this in combination with less rigorous excercise does seem to have helped the twitching a bit. But my acid reflux started getting worse so I had to reduce my meal frequency to 1-2 meals per day. So right now I'm basically intermittent fasting and eating nutrient dense foods.. Before the symptoms started occuring I was eating more plain stuff like Chicken Breast, White Rice, Green Beans and Spaghetti Bolognese with white pasta. And I was snacking quite a bit in between my meals with whey protein shakes, fruit and nuts. In hindsight I think how I ate before was a bit nutrient deficient and not varied enough. Now I think I'm eating quite well nutrient wise but it's not quite working well yet. Maybe I just need to give my body more time to adapt like Osaid's point about the body being able to adapt.

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45 minutes ago, Asayake said:

It isn't excactly the mainstream diet because the mainstream diet is refined carbs with fats/oil and protein. According to Durianrider the high fat content in the mainstream diet is the problem, not the refined carbs

In comparison to carbs, the recommended amount of fat is much lower than the recommended amount of carbs if you look at official food guidelines. I would say this is also reflected in the high carb foods we eat, even if it does have oil in it, the carbs are usually much higher, but there is still some amount of fat as you say.

I thought there would be some leeway for fat in the diet, but you are saying it is essentially 0 fat or protein aside from the occasional avocado or nuts, which is admittedly different from the mainstream.

45 minutes ago, Asayake said:

refined carbs digests quickly, lowers cortisol(which helps recovery and reduces stress in the body), increases dopamine and serotonine and supplies the body with energy

This is all true, but the way most people interpret this will probably lack nuance. Yes, it lowers cortisol. Yes, it digests more quickly. Yes, it stimulates dopamine and serotonin. But all these characteristics can exist in something that contains other negative health consequences. This is also the same logic behind stress eating. The reliance on carbs for lowering cortisol can lead to excess consumption and dysfunctional eating, it can turn into a crutch for people. 

Low carb doesn't mean 0 carbs. You can have simple carbs on a low carb diet. I would even say it's a misnomer to call it "low" carb, it's just that the standard amount of carbs which are recommended are so high that the amount on a low carb diet is called "low". I don't necessarily have anything against consuming simple carbs or carbohydrates, but the issue becomes how much of that stuff you are consuming. At a certain point it becomes excessive.

There are certain times where your body will call for simple carbs. It's an intuitive process, it's not about following some strict guidelines. For example, when you're recovering from a loss of appetite after being really sick, if you pay attention to when your appetite returns, the first thing your body will crave is fruit/fruit juice/simple carbs. That's because your body wants a simple source of energy that it can quickly absorb and get back to normal, and it also wants hydration which the fruit will provide because of the water content. Our bodies are very intelligent in this way.

45 minutes ago, Asayake said:

He thinks intermittent fasting is a cope to deal with the fact that high fat meals are taxing for the body to digest. He thinks there's no need to give the body time to digest/rest with something like a fast if you eat his style of high carb diet

Not necessarily. You can break your fasting routine with simple carbs if you want. Fasting just means not consuming for a certain period of time, that's it. High fat is not inherent to intermittent fasting. And there are many other powerful benefits to intermittent fasting than the extra time it gives to digestion.

Aside from that, your body is built to digest fats. It can't function without fat, which is probably why he has to refeed on nuts and avocado after a while. Although, your ability to digest fat may have atrophied if you've been relying mostly on carbs as fuel for your entire life.

Edited by Osaid

"God is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose it is not that you go through a logical solipsism, 'This is a rose, and roses are beautiful, so this must be beautiful.' The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts. On the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. It is something totally different from the idea of truth." -Osho

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Who cares what other people say.

Try it and see how your body responds…. That is all that matters.

Carnivore has changed my life but again, that doesn’t mean shit to you.

Go out and try it. The proof is in the pudding. 


The game of survival cannot be won. 

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3 hours ago, Asayake said:

Jon Venus quit the vegan diet, then he came back and recently he quit it again claiming that it caused him joint pain, indigestion, cramps and other health issues as well as causing his son poor dental health. It was a while since I watched Vegan Gains now but last time I watched him he said his mental health was worse than ever, super depressed and he was going on some new antidepressant to see if it would help. He is still a vegan though.  

Vegan Gains always had serious mental health problems like depression. If you watch some early clips of him you will think he really doesn’t like to be alive at all. 

3 hours ago, Asayake said:

That's what I thought too, but according to Durianrider he doesn't eat protein or fats at all. He consumes no oils, no animal foods, eats avocados but not on a regular basis. It really seems like he is mostly eating fruits, refined carbs, sugar, glucose syrup and some occassional avocados and nuts when he is dropping too low in bodyweight. His carb/protein/fat ratio is likely 90/10/10 if not even more carbs than that. But despite the fact he is ripped and has amazing cardio. Sure, he's not a bodybuilder by any means, but he's physically very fit for his age. He ran a 2:38 marathon on his weird all carb diet and he's not really a runner but a cyclist.

Some fats and proteins are essential. He might just get enough but if he really goes that low I feel like it’s a bit risky..

Eating a shitton of quick digesting carbs is standard for endurance athletes because it gives the best performance. Performance ≠ Health/Logevity though. 

3 hours ago, Asayake said:

I realize his diet might not be the best for bodybuilding though, I'm reading Arnold Schwarzenegger autobiography atm and he recommends a lot of eggs, milk and meat. 

Well protein… 

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3 hours ago, Asayake said:

Ultimately the vegan diet didn't work for me before, but I was more focused on high protein whole plant based foods and not so focused on high carb high calorie low fat intake. I dropped a lot of weight when I was a vegan.

What were your protein sources?

You could try that out. 
Did your weight stabilize at some point in a healthy range? 

3 hours ago, Asayake said:

This is pretty relateable for me right now. That's me. But not on a vegan diet just on a conventionally healthy diet. But I'm definitely getting a bit stressed out by unusual physical symptoms like twitching, I don't have any tiredness though. But I do have some problems sleeping. I think maybe I have too much cortisol from excercising and I'm not able to regulate it without a lot of carbs, that's why Durianrider caught my attention a bit in a video where he talked about how sufficient sugar/carbs will plummet cortisol levels.

Yeah, I've toned down my training and it helps a bit. I went to the gym today for the first time in a week. I started out with 2 whole body workouts per week before but that still stressed me out a bit too much, Day A/Day B type split with only a few compound movements like the one you recommended in that thread. That's what I'm planning on doing right now because it seemed to stress my body out a bit less than what I was previously doing. But it still doesn't feel like I'm 100% like I was a few months before.

For how long have you trained before you restarted training again? It can take more then a week to drop all fatigue if you really pushed it hard for a long time.

3 hours ago, Asayake said:

Right now I'm eating 1-2 meals per day. When I ate more meals than this my heartburn would become worse. I tried to manage my heartburn with Apple Cider Vinegar for a while and it did get rid off the heartburn but my body still didn't feel quite right, like I was having some sort of indigestion for hours after every meal instead of the heartburn. I eat stuff like Potatoes, Salmon, Kale, Quinoa, Spinach, Chicken Breast, Eggs, Tomatoes, Romaine Lettuce, Sardines, Pumpkin Seeds, Walnuts, Olive Oil, Whole wheat Pasta, Bananas, Kiwi fruits. This is my diet I swapped to after getting the symptoms, and this in combination with less rigorous excercise does seem to have helped the twitching a bit. But my acid reflux started getting worse so I had to reduce my meal frequency to 1-2 meals per day. So right now I'm basically intermittent fasting and eating nutrient dense foods.. Before the symptoms started occuring I was eating more plain stuff like Chicken Breast, White Rice, Green Beans and Spaghetti Bolognese with white pasta. And I was snacking quite a bit in between my meals with whey protein shakes, fruit and nuts. In hindsight I think how I ate before was a bit nutrient deficient and not varied enough. Now I think I'm eating quite well nutrient wise but it's not quite working well yet. Maybe I just need to give my body more time to adapt like Osaid's point about the body being able to adapt.

You eat like a Greek god lol, that’s almost impossible to improve ? 

Maybe there are certain foods that you can’t digest. You could make an elimination diet. Eat a few very basic foods that you know you can tolerate as a start and then add one new food at a time and see how you feel. 
 

 

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Yeah I'm vegan and I run 2.5 miles 5 times a week... 6 times this week though. 

4 Days a week I also do pullups, dips, and other bar exercises with weights as well as jump rope between sets.

I'm not at a point in my life where I'm experiencing chronic pain due to overexertion.. yet.

I feel I have unending allowance of energy as long as I get enough protein and carbs. 

That being said, I did have shin splints pretty terribly when I started heavily jump roping and running all the time. Steep learning curve. Now I figured out that I can skip on a softer floor and get no shin pain at all, jumping rope as long as I want.

 

I'm at a weird point where the more I workout, the less I am muddled with pure realization searching, behavior excusing tendencies, and inflexible frustration.

I've been vegan for almost 5 years but stopped consistent vegan habits for 3 months in the beginning of this year, because my housing situation prevented me from seriously cooking as I lived around people just eating shitty snacks.

When my journey back to veganism started, I was +70 lbs over my last remembered weight. I'm still vengeful of my past sins. I'm glad I've actually typed this in front of me.

Now I'm probably +10 lbs of muscle heavier than my starting weight, and 60 lbs lighter.


we are literally God's name, continuously pronouncing.

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1 hour ago, Cat_eyes said:

Ok, but why the added sugar and refined carbs?  Why not cut out anything processed and eat natural sugars from fruit etc and then have healthier carbs? Or if you want extra sweetness then go for a splash of maple syrup now and then. 
whenever I’ve consumed too much sugar I feel sick and get a headache.. I’m also very cautious of my teeth, which sugar helps to erode and you may end up with black stumps when you’re older. 
Candida overgrowth can also be caused by too much sugar.  So yeah, there are concerns from sugar overload.  
i think just fruit, veggies and wholesome carbs is ok, it’s the adding of extra sugar and refined carbs that I’m not getting. 

Processed sugar makes sense for athletes. The fast sugar helps with recovery right after the workout and they simply cannot get enough sugar from fruits to fuel their marathons. Like imagine eating 10 bananas on the go ?

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17 hours ago, Asayake said:

He's a controversal character in the fitness community

that's an understatement :D Durianrider is like that crazy NPC in GTA 5 who gives you a quest to murder someone while laughing like a maniac. 

 

17 hours ago, Asayake said:

e seems to think they are healthy he believe it's just better to eat something that contains more sugar.

You have to consider that he is coming from a perspective of an endurance athlete with very low BMI who can burn it off. The major issue with sugar is where it leads to weight gain. Becoming too fat for your own body to handle is what will give you insulin resistance, not the sugar itself - this has pretty robustly been demonstrated by Roy Taylor's research 

But a lot of his advice is weird. There is nothing wrong with complex carbs. 

If we are to follow nutritional epidemiology, then any diet that moves away from red meat, trans fat, excess sugar and sugary drinks and processed meat pretty much any way, is going to lead to better health outcomes. Ideally you wanna stay around relatively high carb moderate fat and moderate protein at least if you intend to stick around for a bit longer - a modified version of Mediterranean diet is probably going to be your best bet unless you want to play a Russian roulette with your health and see if low carb quacks were right. 

If you don't care about long term health or your heart or your brain but want to become as strong as you can while in your prime years and then rapidly decline -  do carnivore diet. 

Btw John Venus did not quit veganism for his mental health. He was never an ethical vegan and for him it was a business opportunity and chance to become famous. He also went of veganism because he was afraid for his son's health. I kinda agree with that caution tho, it is good to introduce kids to all foods to minimise risk of late life allergies. 

Edited by Michael569

“If you find yourself acting to impress others, or avoiding action out of fear of what they might think, you have left the path.” ― Epictetus

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3 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

If you don't care about long term health or your heart or your brain but want to become as strong as you can while in your prime years, do carnivore diet. 

Why that? Protein only helps to build muscle up to a point. More then 1g per pound of bodyweight doenst give you anything extra, if anything it actually makes muscle building worse because you could have used the protein calories for carb calories which could have given you more energy and growth hormones. And the protein doenst have to come from meat you just need the amino acids which can come from meat, milk, legumes.. whatever. (Of course you need more plant protein because the essential amino acids aren’t as plentyful as in animal protein sources)

The access of fat in the carnivore diet is also worse for stimulating muscle growth then carbs. 
So I don’t even think a carnivore diet would be the best option for building as much muscle as possible.

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52 minutes ago, Jannes said:

More then 1g per pound of bodyweight doenst give you anything extra

Oh you bet it does. Eating 1gram per pound of bodyweight is going to make you pretty weak if your goal is to get stronger, it is nowhere near enough. You will fatigue quicker, and your progress and recovery will be significantly impaired.  There is a reason why bodybuilders go above 3 grams a day. It improves your recovery and your strength significantly. You can train twice a day and go very heavy while maintaining muscle mass and burning more fat. Especially pre-competition where you need to chissel like a statue, this is where ultra-high protein vs normal protein makes a difference. Well that and anabolic steroids :D But like I said it is a short-term strategy and I would never recommend such protocol to anyone because my thing is chronic disease avoidance and long-term quality of life even if it comes at the expense of sacrificing 30% of my strength and taking 3 times as long to make gains. 

I agree with you that for regular person maintaining health and being reasonably active, 1g is enough 

Any high protein, high meat diet leads to stacking up too many genetic adaptations and are going to shorten your long-term survival. This is why all that appeal to ancestral diet is just stupid. Eating ultra high-protein diet such as carnivore will get you there, and make you strong like an ox (if you plan it right) but after 40 expect a downfall to begin due to all that saturated fat. 

Edited by Michael569

“If you find yourself acting to impress others, or avoiding action out of fear of what they might think, you have left the path.” ― Epictetus

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18 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Oh you bet it does. Eating 1gram per pound of bodyweight is going to make you pretty weak if your goal is to get stronger, it is nowhere near enough. You will fatigue quicker, and your progress and recovery will be significantly impaired. 

Okay you are normally the expert when it comes to health questions but here you drop some big bs. That’s not the common sense of what all of the fitness channels I ever watched. I am making a statistical claim that it is highly unlikely that all of these fitness channels are all referring to the same wrong studies. :D
The benefit of eating more protein to increase muscle growth peaks below 1g per pound of bodyweight. 
My YouTube time is up for today but here I will link a short video of an expert in sport nutrition:

edit:

Quote

There is a reason why bodybuilders go above 3 grams a day.

Many bodybuilder are morons. Also it’s not the norm, idk where you heard that. There are many compedetive bodybuilder that eat 1g per pound of bodyweight.  

Quote

It improves your recovery and your strength significantly. You can train twice a day and go very heavy while maintaining muscle mass and burning more fat. Especially pre-competition where you need to chissel like a statue, this is where ultra-high protein vs normal protein makes a difference.

Carbs help reduce stress. Stress tears down muscle. => Carbs prevent muscle loss. A lack thereof because all the calories go into as much protein as possible will make you loose more muscle in the process.

Also the workouts will be worse will less carbs as I said which will also lead to more muscle loss. 

Quote

Well that and anabolic steroids :D 

Yeah you need more protein with steroids although idk how much more. 

Quote

But like I said it is a short-term strategy and I would never recommend such protocol to anyone because my thing is chronic disease avoidance and long-term quality of life even if it comes at the expense of sacrificing 30% of my strength and taking 3 times as long to make gains. 

I agree with you that for regular person maintaining health and being reasonably active, 1g is enough 

Any high protein, high meat diet leads to stacking up too many genetic adaptations and are going to shorten your long-term survival. This is why all that appeal to ancestral diet is just stupid. Eating ultra high-protein diet such as carnivore will get you there, and make you strong like an ox (if you plan it right) but after 40 expect a downfall to begin due to all that saturated fat. 

What I heard is that eating a shitton of protein itself isn’t the problem. Your kidneys can handle it. Idk how stacking up genetic adaptations is unhealthy that’s far out of my knowledge zone. 

Edited by Jannes

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@Jannes I did a bit of fact checking and I think you're right, my assumption of bodybuilder protein intake was exaggerated. Seems I need to do more research on bodybuilding type of diet.  Jay Cutler claims to have been taking 300-400g of protein per day on average. C-Bum seems to be scoring about 250 g / day. Obviously they compete in slightly different sets so perhaps the common ratio is somewhere in between. 

51 minutes ago, Jannes said:

What I heard is that eating a shitton of protein itself isn’t the problem.

I agree that it it not protein itself but protein being proxy for saturated fats maybe? or low fibre diets? The protein-kidney thing does not seem to hold in the evidence. 

Either way I need to dust off my knowledge in this area, glad I don;t work with bodybuilders :D Thanks for multiple corrections!

Edited by Michael569

“If you find yourself acting to impress others, or avoiding action out of fear of what they might think, you have left the path.” ― Epictetus

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