A Critique Of Actualized.org And Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Derek White

On 2022-10-22 at 9:38 PM, Derek White said:

A Critique Of Actualized.org And Leo Gura

 

The intention of this critique is to make people aware of some of Leo’s limitations. It might save people time and unnecessary suffering. It is not meant to invalidate or insult Actualized.org or Leo. I think Leo is a great teacher in many ways, this is just healthy criticism. Please take it lightly. Since Leo likes to criticize everyone else, I thought why not do it to him this time.

It’s worth mentioning that I’ve personally never taken any psychedelics and I don’t consider myself some advanced spiritual person either. Some might consider this critique incomplete - which is fair. I have been watching Leo and other teachers for a long time. Nevertheless, I think it can still be helpful for people to read this. If anything, it can be an exercise in open-mindedness. 

It’s important to note that I will only be critiquing Leo on his more core and central teaching. So don’t expect much on minutia like his dating advice or politics. Although these thing can be important to some people, and you are free to level your own critiques on him, small or big, below this post, I personally won’t be focusing much on this.

So sit back and let’s being…

 

Freedom from understanding

 

This one is a little confusing and long but the most important. Stick with me please.

 

Basically, Leo takes psychedelics and shares his findings on YouTube.

 

Why am I telling you this? 

I am telling you this because there are things he doesn’t explicitly tell you:

What Leo does is pursuit of understanding. It is an endless process. There is no end to it. You can keep on accumulating new experiences and making your understanding better and better. Understanding is a limited process rooted in the ego-mind.

So during his psychedelic trip he has an experience of God. We can say he is in a higher state of consciousness. Once it is over, he comes back to his normal state of consciousness. The experience is stored in the form of memory which gets interpreted and communicated by the ego-mind. The memory isn’t reliable because it can’t be stored. Understanding is a limited thing, whereas Truth is unlimited it can’t be bound to such things.

So here’s what you need to know:

Most people don’t need to do what Leo does. Leo is like a scientist. It’s his profession and passion to have new experiences and create new mental models. This pays his bills.

Truth is beyond understanding. Truth is something living, it doesn’t come from a memory of a trip.

Understanding (and experience) is only needed to answer a few basic questions, beyond it you don’t need it. Questions like, “Who am I?”, “What is thought?”, “What is the limitation of thought?” Basically to quiet the mind and satisfy your curiosity. To become free from this as well.

The point of spirituality is freedom, but people get stuck in this cycle of accumulating experiences and gathering knowledge. They never become free from understanding itself. You have to use your understanding to get free from understanding.

Getting more understanding will not change you. Your personality will remain the same. Your habits and patterns will remain the same. Your base level of consciousness will remain the same. You will remain an idiot. (If anything too many fixed ideas you got from your trips might make your ego swell and make it hard for you to look at life afresh.)

You might regret wasting this time on understanding. It’s endless. It’s the same as exploring the physical world. You can keep exploring it deeper and deeper and arrive at new conclusions each time. Your time might be better spent on any number of things.

It’s important to tell you that it will not get rid of suffering either, in case that’s why you are following Leo. 

It’s important to tell you this because people have attached unrealistic expectations about this. If you’re an average person with a job and a career, you don’t need to do this. In fact this might not even be spirituality for you, it’s like a weird game of documenting peak experiences. He might say he made this clear to people, but I say he doesn't explicitly tell you this. Most people don't need this and they don't know they don't need it, they are lost and Leo doesn't help them out.

 

Lack of balance

 

Leo likes to talk about balance, but how balanced is his spirituality? 

How balanced is his self-help? It is overly intellectual (as he himself admits). 

All he’s trying to do is get peak spiritual experiences. He has completely neglected raising his base level of consciousness. As far as you know he is not doing anything to raise it. He inspires others to do the same.

 

Arrogance, ego and the forum

 

If you had asked me about Leo’s ego a year ago, I would have ignored it as minutia, but now I increasingly feel it is becoming a problem.

After an awakening his ego becomes inflated for several weeks. Every time he gets an awakening you can bet it will be like this.

You know something other people don’t. So what? What’s the big deal? What’s there to be proud about? You don’t even know it after the trip. I don’t see the point of inflating your ego.

 

Trap of solipsism 

“But it’s not ego, he’s trying to communicate solipsism. That’s why he says he is the best and the only one awakened.”

No, no. If he was he wouldn’t say it like that. It would be a matter of fact statement. Anybody with some awareness can tell that what he is saying coming from ego. He thinks there’s no one he can learn from. There can be no characters in the dream more knowledgeable and aware as him. Yet he continues to be in the dream. He thinks he is the most advanced, not because of solipsism, he actually thinks that. (For anyone that thinks otherwise, you can simply use the search function and look what he said in the past.) (I'm not saying solipsism is not true.)

 

It’s a one way conversation with him. There’s nothing you can say to him that will get through to him. There’s really no point talking to him anymore. It’s a misapplication of solipsism. 

 

“He’s just being authentic.” 

Being authentic doesn’t mean doing whatever comes to your mind. “I feel like murdering someone, so I will murder someone.” That’s not authentic. Again, I think it comes under a trap of solipsism.

 

“The other teachers are not as good”

He doesn’t know about other teachers’ methods.

Leo doesn’t know about all these things, he has never learned from an actual Yogi, Tantric, or a Buddhist monk from the places these traditions originate from. He has never gone too deep into this. He’s not qualified to talk about it.

He doesn’t know about devotion, about chakras, energy, and many other things. 

It might be because he has an autoimmune disorder which prevents him from exploring other methods fully. That’s why he likes psychedelics so much. They’re quick and easy. 

“Buddhism will never get you there.”

Sadhguru said Buddhism is a long, drawn out process. He said Buddhist masters tell you it will take you 12 life times of sadhana to become enlightened. Buddhism in the east, the actual Buddhism, makes it clear. It doesn’t give you false expectations.

"But re-incarnation and all that isn't real."

Just like everything else. The walls in your house, your ego-mind, your body, and your psychedelics. How do you know it's not as real as radio waves?

"But these teachers are genetic freaks! We can't be like them."

So it just didn't occur to these genetic freaks that other people can never advance spiritually like them. These supposedly genetic freaks who are juggernauts of awareness, just didn't realize other people are not like them. It slipped their attention. Obviously if these people are so aware they know what they are doing and what others are capable of. I've seen videos and testimonies of people who go to these people. People's lives have changed for the better. Obviously not all the people who benefit make a YouTube channel and say exactly the same things Leo says. People are private.

 

Being offensive and outrageous 

I am embarrassed to share that I watch actualized.org with anybody. With post titles like, brains don’t exists and pedophilia is love. I’m sure I’m not the only one. Leo has no regard for how others might perceive his loyal followers when he does things like this.

It’s coming from ego. The way he’s going about saying it is dumb. You don’t need to do all this to make your point. It’s unappealing, that’s why people move away from you and he feels they are moving away because they don’t understand his point. 

“Look at this video of a murder taking place. This is love guys! Look at this! Why are you going away? Surely you’re not as awake as me! I’m the most awakened person on the planet!”

 

Future

I think in the future, it is possible, Leo will eventually develop occult powers with the use of psychedelics. And his ego will be even more inflated. It will become even more ugly. This is all a consequence of not neglecting his base level of consciousness. 

 

Forum

The forum is not a great place. Partly because Leo himself sets the precedence on how to communicate here and he himself breaks his own rules and name calls people. Even when he’s not name calling you directly, that’s what he’s trying to do indirectly. He’s so snarky too. Other than that he’s doing some version of “everything is a dream”, “this is just a figment of your dream.” 

“It’s the internet” No. They look at Leo’s writing style and get inspired. 

The quality of the forum is quite low. Some members with mental illnesses should’ve been reached out and told to take care of themselves before posting again. There are posts which are quite low, like “why I hate men/women” or some other thing like that. Some members should’ve been kicked out a long time ago but Leo seemed to have a soft-corner for them. There are people who have shown no progress (or even regression) and have been on the forum for a long time.

For e.g, take Nahm’s example. He should’ve been stopped a long time ago. I come on the forum occasionally and even I noticed he was misleading members on the forum whether he meant to do it or not. And I have seen long term members being lost and no one corrects them. 

This is important ‘cause there have been incidents of suicide and people ending up in mental hospitals among Leo’s audience. It’s not far fetched to call what he does irresponsible. 

 

Better self-help teachers

 

In a sense you can’t even call what Leo does self help anymore. Over the years, he has become more interested in sharing his awakening from his trips than actually understanding his audience’s problems and solving them. 90% of the time he’s just describing his awakening and it’s not of much use because you cannot get to that point by just listening to him. Just do the psychedelics in the way Leo say, there’s no point listening to him except for entertainment.

I think, there are better more balanced self-help teachers out there. Those who don’t focus on journalling and intellectualizing too much. Intellectualizing is the number one trap today, people just sit and home and try to think through their problems instead of taking action. So that’s why I think it’s a big limitation of Leo. There is Sandeep Maheshwari for example who has a good balance of self-help and spirituality. His content is not in English however. 

And for what we know Leo is not a very productive person either. His life might be worse than most people’s for what we knew (partially because of his autoimmune disease). I don’t he’s the ideal person to teach a balanced self-help.

For e.g. take the difference between Sadhguru and Leo on concentration. Concentration is one of the most important things you need to become successful spiritually and materially.

Leo has a video on concentration titled: Concentration vs Meditation - How To Develop Concentration. I’m sure everyone has seen it multiple times so I won’t talk about it.

Now look at what Sadhguru says about concentration: he says don’t try to concentrate. Trying to concentrate is torture and you won’t be able to sustain it. Instead be involved in whatever you are doing and focus will naturally come. Not attached, not detached, but involved. Like you are involved while playing a sport. To meditate is to be involved. Involvement brings attention, and attention brings clarity. Personally this had changed my life. Here’s one article by him: https://isha.sadhguru.org/in/en/wisdom/article/key-to-staying-focused

I think Sadhguru knows much more about attention, concentration, focus, alertness, and the overall mind than Leo. 

 

Other minutia

 

If I were to say something else I would just say that Leo has a slight bias toward the “western” way of life and has wrong assumptions about people from other places. The lifestyle of the “west” isn’t all that great. 

 

They End

 

I may edit this post later for spelling and grammatical errors, or if I want to add something to it. 

 

   Overall, a good solid critique. However, it's going to be difficult critiquing the advanced forms of Leo's work as most of that is both a semantics issue and lack of experience issues, so at best the most productive the critique gets is on the basics of this work, and maybe safety protocols and that's that.

[StarStruck]

Leo is trying to reinvent the wheel and does a bad job at it. I mean there are already great consciousness models like Kaballah that explain what he explains but much clearer and structured. In Leo’s writing I see a lot of confusion. Today I read that he doesn’t even understand the difference between intelligence and wisdom. If he studied the existing esoterica this wouldn’t have happened. He could have build his work on good foundations instead of building his work on quick sand. Perhaps he is a good psychonaut but he isn’t a good teacher. He is stuck in quick sand and he is not aware of it; and he is taking dozens of feeble minds with him into the self proclaimed madness. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by StarStruck

[jimwell]

11 hours ago, Vido said:

I hope the people who copy Leo, get fucked by life. The only thing I'm upset about is that he's not doing more stupid things so that others copy that and have life fuck them hard. 

 Why being malicious?

Nothing to be upset about. Many members here imitate Leo, in words and actions.

But it never seriously crossed their minds they are just digging a deeper hole for themselves.

The differences between Leo and his followers are that Leo already has millions or hundreds of thousands in his bank account and has never experienced any form of mental illness or any serious form of trauma, while his followers are being inflicted with various forms of mental illnesses, trauma, and are having financial problems. Many also lack social skills or have never had a girlfriend their entire lives.

It's ok for Leo to shoot for the stars. It's foolish for his followers to try to do the same thing because for them, it's just spiritual bypassing. Leo's work is NOT for the majority of the population. That's the truth, whether acknowledged or not. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by jimwell
needed to include the incels and the socially awkward followers

[OBEler]

@StarStruck Yeah you can use already existing Dogma. 

Or you can throw this dogma away and explore new terraint. Not everything is structured and known from the beginning. It is a process. Otherwise you could just follow old spiritual systems and paths, which are structured from the beginning. But they are dogmatic and limited, mostly written for people hundrets of years ago or a culture which you are not part of anymore. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by OBEler

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

26 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@StarStruck Yeah you can use already existing Dogma. 

Or you can throw this dogma away and explore new terraint. Not everything is structured and known from the beginning. It is a process. Otherwise you could just follow old spiritual systems and paths, which are structured from the beginning. But they are dogmatic and limited, mostly written for people hundrets of years ago or a culture which you are not part of anymore. 

   True, you could follow older spiritual traditions and systems and their designed paths over time, based on the 10,000s of years of that path working. Although I don't know what you meant with existing dogma and the spiritual traditions being dogmatic, do you mean when they refer to each other, when you ask a master/student of Buddhism about Judaism and the Kabbalah and vice versa? If you meant it that way, I don't think that level of close mindedness and dogma is unhealthy on the surface. They are largely stage blue traditions, with their cultural baggage, that wish to preserve their way of investigating into their reality and other spiritual experiences, so the notion of a spiritual tradition and its esoteric branch mixing with another is alien and of course guarded against for good reason.

   *Terrain and *hundreds.

[Danioover9000]

@jimwell

5 hours ago, jimwell said:

 Why being malicious?

Nothing to be upset about. Many members here imitate Leo, in words and actions.

But it never seriously crossed their minds they are just digging a deeper hole for themselves.

The differences between Leo and his followers are that Leo already has millions or hundreds of thousands in his bank account and has never experienced any form of mental illness or any serious form of trauma, while his followers are being inflicted with various forms of mental illnesses, trauma, and are having financial problems. Many also lack social skills or have never had a girlfriend their entire lives.

It's ok for Leo to shoot for the stars. It's foolish for his followers to try to do the same thing because for them, it's just spiritual bypassing. Leo's work is NOT for the majority of the population. That's the truth, whether acknowledged or not. 

   Some of the forum users, not all users mind you, have mental illnesses, mental disorders, mental traumas, financial difficulties, social and relationship difficulties, fitness and health issues.  

   Is that how much Leo really has? 100,000 to 1,000,000s of dollars? Or is it 10,000 to 100,000s of dollars?

[Leo Gura]

I find it funny when people come here to complain that this is such a cult when like 50% of people here disagree with me constantly on things.

This place is like a herd of cats.

If it was a cult my life would be a lot easier. People have so many different opinions on here that it's a pain just to keep things tidy. In a democracy, people are constantly fighting with each other over worldviews. Which you see lots of here. So much so that I am forced to ban extremists just to keep some order.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Leo Gura

[LordFall]

@Leo Gura Do you enjoy debating endlessly with people that won't ever get your points? I feel like it'd be easier just to make a cult with a small following of people you handpick. I admire the calling, it's truly selfless I don't think I could teach people. I get irritated by illogicality too much. 

[Loba]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This place is like a herd of cats.

 

[StarStruck]

19 hours ago, OBEler said:

@StarStruck Yeah you can use already existing Dogma. 

Or you can throw this dogma away and explore new terraint. Not everything is structured and known from the beginning. It is a process. Otherwise you could just follow old spiritual systems and paths, which are structured from the beginning. But they are dogmatic and limited, mostly written for people hundrets of years ago or a culture which you are not part of anymore. 

how does the Kabbalah limit Leo's teaching?

[Thewritersunion]

Just a short message for those on the forum: Free Will is unlimited. That applies to you. Me. Everyone. Understand that. Grasp it. Apply it. What Leo teaches is high quality, but at the end of the day all you have is your stream of awareness. Focus your craft and life wisely fellas. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Thewritersunion

[2ndComing]

Leos just lost in leftism, until he reads the bible again specifically the New Testament/Proverbs/Psalms/Genesis and Ecclesiastes, he'll just be rehashing his Eastern spirituality work. I don't know why he stopped lifting either, he needs to get a hair transplant, start lifting again, get married and have some kids instead of doing drugs and jerking off in bathtubs to porn saying he's God jerking off to himself.

[Epikur]

Compulsory Meditation before posting would solve 80 percent of bad posting but it would hurt business.

[Aaron p]

Lol you guys are wrong, only the most enlightened badass could rock such a beard. 

In all seriousness though, you have no idea the depth and accuracy of Leos teachings. It's like fucking... Shockingly accurate. Leo is the real deal. The power, holy shit. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Aaron p

[Breakingthewall]

solid and worked criticism. many valid and real points. but I have many doubts about many things. first thing, the word "teacher" . For me Leo is not a teacher, he is a guy who delves into reality and explains his findings. These hints can be useful for you on your way. I guess if you take the course he's talking about, he'll be a teacher, but he's not for now.

second, traditional spirituality. I have the feeling that absolutely no one frees himself from the trap of the ego through any school of traditional spirituality. this may be wrong, but I can't help but think so. As you say, the goal of spirituality is liberation, not knowledge, since you cannot know infinity. but maybe if you can understand it. one thing is to cover and another to understand its mechanics. more and more it seems to me that without understanding there is no liberation, and without psychedelics there is no understanding. psychedelics are essential to be able to delve into the structure of reality, to understand it and thus stop being trapped in the trap of the ego. For liberation there must be understanding, and in this Leo is the pioneer. no one else tries to understand or explain what they have understood.

lastly, his unloving attitude. It seems that he is a rather lonely guy, not at all gregarious by nature, who despises everything that is belonging to a group, feeling accepted, etc. and that is very noticeable when interacting with him. It seems that he has the typical superiority complex of a smart nerd who did not feel accepted in childhood for other kids less smart than him. and that shows, it makes him a bit poisonous in interaction with people, the dumbs. but hey, that's his problem, no one is perfect. And i think it's an advantage. It keeps him far of the sectary temptation. if what we want is to free ourselves, his work is of enormous help. That's enough

And 4, the environment in the forum. What do you expect? A group of truly awakened people? Not today. Maybe one day.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[newbee]

Your critique I think is in sync with a blog post I just read from a woman who had a spontaneous awakening.

It's an issue that many men (but also women, though more so men) have on this path to enlightenment and it is a good thing to address it I feel, because it's true. 

I'll copy/paste some paragraphs from her article. I'm sure it'll sound familiar  :

"Online forums and Facebook groups dedicated to endless debate about enlightenment, non-duality, advaita-vedanta, emptiness and more, are largely populated by men. And it’s men who are the most active participants in what often amounts to breast beating to prove who has the right answer or the most enlightened understanding."

She further points out that a lot of these are 'stuck in the head' and she noticed two kinds of 'heady-awakenings':  

"The first is where someone has understood the concept of “no self” and then gone on to live their life as if this cognitive grasp equals true realization. This idea-based version of awakening is most common among online, male-dominated chat groups about enlightenment. (Yes, there are women there too…I’m just saying, it’s mostly guys).

The second is the more rare case of folks who have been catapulted into the emptiness and get stuck there. Some call it Zen Sickness. It looks like apathy and indifference to any real engagement in reality. These sorts of men do show up in chat rooms online, but mostly to correct everyone by pointing out that “Nothing matters, nothing is real, there is no-one here, and so stop debating already.”

I observed a lot of this type of behavior on this forum as well.  Too much arrogance and not enough compassion, combined with a lot of insight is a sign of a person or people who had glimpses but are not awakened on a 24/7 basis.  

Also interesting what Adyashanti had to say about this:

“Enlightenment does not mean one should disappear into the realm of transcendence. To be fixated in the absolute is simply the polar opposite of being fixated in the relative…. To awaken to the absolute view is profound and transformative, but to awaken from all fixed points of view is the birth of true nonduality. If emptiness cannot dance, it is not true emptiness. If moonlight does not flood the empty night sky and reflect in every drop of water, on every blade of grass, then you are only looking at your own empty dream. I say, “Wake up!” Then your heart will be flooded with a Love that you cannot contain.”

That should serve as a good answer to those who insist on some absolute view such as "rape = love" and act like holding this insight is a sign of being awakened.  It's another form of spiritual bypassing imo, to use an absolute truth against someone's personal truth.   A truly enlightened person would prioritize showing/practicing compassion towards someone's personal experience/truth when needed as opposed to lecturing the person with some absolute truths, because they're not 'getting it'.

Needless to say I do appreciate Leo's dedication and courage as an explorer of truth/reality, but I'd recommend him to become even more dedicated to checking in with his own self on how much he is actually living these truths in his day to day life, if being enlightened on a permanent basis is his true goal.  

Being the moderator of your own forum also serves as an amplifier of the ego and to become a teacher prematurely before becoming awakened 24/7 is unfortunately unhelpful as the audience they gain will only enlarge their ego and ironically stop true enlightenment in its tracks or make it a lot harder.

 

 

[EternalForest]

@2ndComing Kinda petty to make fun of his looks. Leo is pretty clean cut compared to a lot of other Gurus anyways.

[EternalForest]

And why does every spiritual person need to read the Bible? Why don't Christians have to read the Tipitaka?

[Aaron p]

On 10/29/2022 at 4:40 AM, 2ndComing said:

Leos just lost in leftism, until he reads the bible again specifically the New Testament/Proverbs/Psalms/Genesis and Ecclesiastes, he'll just be rehashing his Eastern spirituality work. I don't know why he stopped lifting either, he needs to get a hair transplant, start lifting again, get married and have some kids instead of doing drugs and jerking off in bathtubs to porn saying he's God jerking off to himself.

@2ndComing second coming haha, nice 12th post 

[Ulax]

On 29/10/2022 at 4:40 AM, 2ndComing said:

Leos just lost in leftism, until he reads the bible again specifically the New Testament/Proverbs/Psalms/Genesis and Ecclesiastes, he'll just be rehashing his Eastern spirituality work. I don't know why he stopped lifting either, he needs to get a hair transplant, start lifting again, get married and have some kids instead of doing drugs and jerking off in bathtubs to porn saying he's God jerking off to himself.

@2ndComing In bathtubs? ?

Edited October 31, 2022 by Ulax