Can we have an honest discussion about race?

[Leo Gura]

Fine. Let's have this discussion. Let's see if you guys can handle this without devolving into racism and personal attacks.

How does your model of black people account for the fact they have been enslaved for 250 years as a group and oppressed in every imaginable way even after their enslavement ended?

No one said their IQ is equivalent. What is said is that their IQ has been artificially depressed because of how they were treated by society and culture. And as this changes their IQ will roughly equalize to whites -- which has been happening.

What you're missing is that IQ will be seriously depressed if I treat you like a slave. And this depression will take generations to correct.

So what intelligent, non-racist thing do you have to say to invalidate what I said?

If they devolves into racism I'm shutting it down.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Leo Gura

[something_else]

*DOOM music starts playing*

[thepixelmonk]

3 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

@thepixelmonk African Americans score lower than European Americans on vocabulary, reading, and math tests, as well as on tests that claim to measure scholastic aptitude and intelligence.  It's not just IQ testing.  It's every academic and intelligence metric available.  They're inferior everywhere.  Just google it yourself and be free of your illusion.  

Are our posts just going in one of your ears and out the other? Every other person here has acknowledged these metrics you're referring to. The claims you are making based upon them are considered pseudoscientific and there are mountains of evidence and historical precedence to support that. If you literally have nothing else to say other than "bUt ThEy ScOrE lOwEr On ThEsE tEsTs" and are just going to ignore everything everyone else is saying then I'm not sure why you tried to start a discussion in the first place.

Edited October 20, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[Tyler Robinson]

 

Why should low IQ even be a problem? Why this judgement? 

It's like saying that people with low IQ are inferior? 

I'm genuinely low IQ. Born low IQ. So? 

This thread is not just about race. It's also discussing IQ..

Does it make me unworthy in any way? 

I'm quirky, I'm creative, I've a good heart. Do these things not count? 

Why should I think I'm inferior to some high IQ person? 

Your discussion should not be about why certain race is inferior but why something is even considered inferior in the first place? The notion of inferiority itself must be challenged at its root. 

Because it's not about racism. It's about classism. It's about classifying humans on superiority and inferiority at its fundamental root, Black or no black. It's just wrong morally. 

You can't play God. Silly human. 

God gave me a lot of things that I'm blessed for even if I'm low IQ.. 

And I don't need to be made to feel bad or considered sub human for my IQ level because my IQ just doesn't matter. My soul matters. 

I'm above your silly judgement because God makes every child unique just like he made me. 

It's another matter that you can't respect God's creation. 

 

[thepixelmonk]

Although I stand by refuting everything in the OP, all good points made by Tyler. Just even more reasons why all this is nonsense.

Edited October 21, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[nuwu]

- meritocracy is bias-reducing by definition
- even if one believes such studies, a large number of carbon-based constructs with higher skin melanin may be radically smarter than other groups members due to the bell curve shape of iq distribution
- outliers are focal points of creativity, undermining the relevance of any statistical tool on intelligence. concept of artistic gestalt applies at all levels, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. deep inventions and insights often come from a place of scarcity. this means even if some entities are approved or rejected by a survival-fitting model, it's impossible to know whether or not they will provide significant understandings and love to the collective
- environmental factors are significant. iodine deficiency by itself may result in ~ 15 IQ loss in children [1]. choline seems to be another important nutrient [2]. there are discrepancies between the development of dietary habits among cultures. for example, beneficial or disadvantageous feedback loops can be sustained by education, financial flow, or genetic predisposition to lactose/gluten/etc allergies potentially decreasing the likelihood of proper nutrition in industrial societies where such ingredients are widespread (by increasing cost or complexity).
- the less time wasted fighting with yourself, the more spent imagining heaven (see prisoner dilemma). if you artificially trim out the right of survival from any entity or group, you should expect endless backlash making everything devolves back into a convoluted state like feudalism, unlike when coming from a sustained sense of love. for example, financially inclusive systems in crypto can help collectives to be exponentially more efficient, this should be explored.
- genetic engineering will completely wipe out all forms of selection around genes in one or two decades, meaning such discussion is moot. let alone if monkeys are not entirely replaced by quantum agi.
- nothing to do in consciousness. every perspective is the one of god, and should be treated as such. the only source of intelligence is the void
- g-go back

Edited October 21, 2022 by nuwu

[trenton]

@Heart of Space 

I would like to point out that the Japanese have a much higher IQ than Americans. This difference is accounted for by the food industry in both countries.

In Japan they eat a lot of sea food which is far better than the standard American diet. Many of the ingredients in the food we eat are carcinogens, heavy metals, and heavy sugar. This adds up to the point of brain damage. Brain damage certainly explains the difference in IQ.

If Americans had a better food industry then the average voter could have an IQ about ten points higher. With this in mind, I eat a lot more sea food and it helps me focus with sustained energy.

I should further add the life styles of world chess champions. Although genetics is a factor in Fischer having an IQ of 180, Fischer also believed that body and mind could not be separated. He often went swimming. Kasparov did a lot of push ups. Carlsen plays soccer. Interestingly, Carlsen is also a vegetarian.

I don't believe that diet can make up the total difference in IQ. Then again, IQ tests could be measuring intelligence in a poor way. Maybe pattern recognition can be practiced and improved. Maybe there are other ways to measure intellectual ability other than pattern recognition.

Maybe I'll look more into the actual data on test scores by race. There have been some fights over possibly racist teachers who argue that blacks objectively score lower than whites on graded tests.

[Thought Art]

15 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

To justify the political importance of this topic:  If you believe that you are equal to others in capability and are just a victim of bad environment and historical factors you can justify a belief in being entitled to equal resources.   This idea pervades the politics of liberal and progressive black people everywhere in the United States.  Policy idea's relating to affirmative action, or reparations.  Or just general societal resentment towards white people.  

A true meritocracy has racial bias.  

I don’t understand what is meant here can you clarify?

Have you heard of the work by people like Marcus Garvey?

Also when there’s so many factors why are you singling out genetics?

Lastly, you don’t think all white peoples are smarter than all black people? Because I’ve met smart and stupid people of all skin colours.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Thought Art

[mr_engineer]

8 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

 @mr_engineer  It's a difficult topic.  No topic should be off limits.  There is a massive amount of racial shadow in this country.  It all needs to be vetted out and the truth needs to be seen and accepted.  

@Heart of Space You're picking a really, really fierce battle. My only advice to you is to have a genuine, tangible cause behind doing so. Please, pick your battles wisely. And have them be worth it. Cuz this is a huge hot-button issue for people. 

[yeshua]

Yea, but no white boy can punch like Tyson, jump like Jordan or run like Bolt. (I'm saying this as a caucasian)

[Lila9]

Black people aren't intellectually inferior. They are just lacking the privillage that white people have in society. The view of white people on black people is sooo biased, I think that no white powerful and privillaged person has ever made sure that black people recieve a genuine and equal opporunities in life because it's comfortable for some people to keep their white hegemony. They need someone inferiour around them, otherwise how would they feel superior?

IQ tests are made for people with a certain background, usually wealthy  people who have the resorces to be qulified for such test. It doesn't make sense to apply this test on people who never got the proper qualification for such test.

Actually, IQ is not the ultimate measurment for intelligence. There are many types of intelligence.

My god, all the white people were black several generations back. White skin is an adaptation to colder climate. The first homosepian apperantly was black. Is that mean that we all intellectually inferior?

 

[Ulax]

23 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

It's very sensitive and uncomfortable for people to broach this subject.  I have a few opinions based on some major points of evidence about race that I'd like to share.  This is not a thread motivated at all by prejudice, or hatred of any kind.  Please do not respond with racism or claims that I am hateful.  

The races are not all the same.  Each race is a population with aggregate genetic qualities that are different from each other.  Things like intelligence, athleticism, communication skills, and so on.  

Let me cut to the chase in a way that might trigger people, but hear me out.  

Black people are genuinely intellectually inferior.  

Now, I'm not going to write you a peer reviewed research essay on why this is the case, but I'll make a few major points in the favor of this uncomfortable truth.  Black communities and societies all over the world are far less successful on average.  Black IQ scores are lower, by quite a large margin. 

Now you could throw a lot of arguments about environmental or historical factors.  But I don't' believe that accounts for the large gap in intelligence entirely.  It only accounts for a portion.  And in arguing that 100% of the gap is explained by these factors you are in denial of the obvious truth that genetic populations vary.  

I think that we should all come to accept this reality, knowing that individuals within any population can still succeed in life.  People should grow to be comfortable with these facts and view them as not that big of a deal. 

To justify the political importance of this topic:  If you believe that you are equal to others in capability and are just a victim of bad environment and historical factors you can justify a belief in being entitled to equal resources.   This idea pervades the politics of liberal and progressive black people everywhere in the United States.  Policy idea's relating to affirmative action, or reparations.  Or just general societal resentment towards white people.  

A true meritocracy has racial bias.  

@Heart of Space You think it has racial bias?

[Thought Art]

9 hours ago, yeshua said:

Yea, but no white boy can punch like Tyson, jump like Jordan or run like Bolt. (I'm saying this as a caucasian)

And all the black music that inspired literally ALL popular forms of music right now..

 

[DrugsBunny]

On 10/20/2022 at 11:19 AM, Heart of Space said:

"Let's have an honest discussion about race. Black people are stupid!"

He says, having returned from an exhausting day of work only to realize his clan robes had been further damaged by his local dry cleaners. He's having a rough day, or life perhaps, but it's hard to imagine what dreadful misfortune could have obscured his cognition such that posting this inane drivel seemed like a good idea.

On 10/20/2022 at 11:19 AM, Heart of Space said:

Now you could throw a lot of arguments about environmental or historical factors.  But I don't' believe that accounts for the large gap in intelligence entirely.  It only accounts for a portion.  And in arguing that 100% of the gap is explained by these factors you are in denial of the obvious truth that genetic populations vary.  

The irony of ascribing a state of denial to those who hold this position while neglecting to provide any evidence for your claim demonstrates a lack of self-awareness that might just warrant some sort of trophy or prestigious accolade. Accomplishing such stunning ineptitude has surely taken you sincere dedication. 

 

[ArcticGong]

If we look at IQ differences, we would find differences between whites in big cities and whites in the countryside. In a single country, you have differences, such as the American south and the north. Are those differences genetic or environmental? I think power is a central component of differences between people and regions. Capital cities usually have higher GDP than the rest of the country. What is that all about? 

Another point id like to make is that of home stadium advantage. In sports, you might have noticed that teams perform better with home support. Translate that sports metaphor for the larger society. If most of society's institutions favor your kind in housing, banking, courts, education, and employment. All that prejudice adds up to something affecting you. 

And extending the sports metaphor, that is why we have a lot of fights between different people. One group of people wants to extend their home team advantage by spreading their language, currency, trade practices, etc, in the name of democracy or fighting nazism, security, independence etc. However, in most cases are the motives bullshit, a convenient cover for advancing one group's survival motives. Ego wants to make a complicated issue simpler, rather than simplify it. 

[Bad_anarchist]

@Heart of Space Any person with sense would see that these studies have major flaws. You don’t think it is a coincidence that all the countries and communities that show a lower IQ score are also the countries and communities with less accessible or no education?. If you actually knew anything about IQ you would know that IQ scores go up with education. 
 

Another thing I would like to point out here that makes it obvs that these studies are bullshit, is the fact that in many African countries where education is limited, the average IQ score is below 70. A person with IQ below 70 is considered to be retarded and developmentally hindered, and I highly doubt that the average African is retarded. It has to do with the fact that people didn’t even go to first grade and learned basic math. If you look at how IQ tests are structured, you need a basic understanding of certain things that we often take for granted, but these people where never exposed to. Many people are also illiterate and how are you gonna complete a test when you can’t even understand it because you never learned to read? 

jews have a higher IQ on average for example, which probably has to do with the fact that education is so encouraged. It is a tradition in the Jewish community to study and it is not unusual for an entire family to be academics of some sort. 
 

there is no gene for lower IQs, that is not a fact and a ridiculous statement.

[caspex]

Man I have no substance to add to the main topic because I don't know anything about anything regarding this topic. But I do wanna barge in say that this discussion is certainly not calm and non-judgmental lmao, from both sides.

[Gidiot]

its as if having a low IQ makes you unworthy or lesser of a person or less deserving of life, this is the same problem I have with saying be useful or die, it shouldnt matter your iq level, your performance on tests or ability to create value, as long as youre not hurting anyone you deserve life and to enjoy this dream without being compared and contrasted with others who may or may not do better than you, its so silly, im not saying black people are lower IQ, but if they were, so what? what does it change about reality? should they bow down and kiss the ring of Elon musk and jeff bezos and bill gates, its a joke.

[Heart of Space]

At work, but I'd like to say thank you for reopening the thread.  It was the correct choice.  

I intend to reply to all the good rebuttals and points made since I last posted.  I'm at work, so please be patient.  

Edit:  there's a few half decent points made.  Just to show I'm of good faith I'll even help your arguments by steel manning them when I respond.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Heart of Space]

On 10/20/2022 at 6:28 PM, Leo Gura said:

No one said their IQ is equivalent.

No, but they certainly do say that the intellectual capacity of the different races are equal and that all differences are explainable due to historical and environmental explanations.  This is the very thesis I am disputing, so please understand that.  

On 10/20/2022 at 6:28 PM, Leo Gura said:

What is said is that their IQ has been artificially depressed because of how they were treated by society and culture. And as this changes their IQ will roughly equalize to whites -- which has been happening.

What you're missing is that IQ will be seriously depressed if I treat you like a slave. And this depression will take generations to correct.

So what intelligent, non-racist thing do you have to say to invalidate what I said?

You should ask yourself when you see and interact with a person that is clearly much less intelligent then you, what is the first explanation you go to?  Do you wonder about their nutrition?  Do you ponder the bad values and behaviors that have been passed to them over generations?  Maybe you do, but regardless everyone immediately goes to genetics as an explanation with zero apprehension.  

When it comes to individuals we have no problem at all attributing poor intellect to genetics. But when we start grouping large genetic populations all of a sudden any talk of genetics being a significant factor becomes taboo. 

It's obvious Leo, genes play a massive role in all of your attributes, especially intelligence.  The brain and all it's qualities is an organ governed by genetics.  It'd be odd if we could attribute the ratio of type 1 to type 2 muscle fiber primarily to genetics, yet magically due to personal feelings being hurt the biochemical reality of genes just simply stop working inside of the skull.  All of a sudden due to the political nature of the topic the qualities of a brain are only governed by neuroplasticity and all the environmental factors that shape it.  Funny, it would be the single and only organ that worked that way.   

Edited October 24, 2022 by Heart of Space