When does LGBT go too far?

[Alexop]

I will relocate to a very progressive country and I want to know when LGBT really goes too far, it will be a culture shock because in the country I grew up in, most people hate LGBT. If I research this I could run over a right wing nuthead or a lunatic leftist, so better ask you here. As far as I know, the healthy mainfestations are: masculine gay men and women, feminine gay men and women, bisexual and transgenders identfying eighter with the feminine or masculine. But what about the gender nonconformist who is not a man nor a woman in aspect or in identity, who says it wants to be called "hen"(swedish for he and she together) and it is between masculine and feminine energy and fluctuant. Is that healthy for society? I mean I know genders are social constructs but so are money and laws, they still help us. I researched masculine and feminine energies and they are so beautiful if they are understood and expressed correctly, wouldn`t be great to choose one or the other? Isn`t that an unfinished self-understanding? And I can say that if you identify as an attack helicopter you should somehow put some work into it, buy a big radar and some missiles. I feel that some people take advantage of the historical repression of LGBT to go crazy with it now, the belief that there are 86363 genders is just silly. I still try to find really rock solid, non-ideological, non-biased answers to this so if not here where...

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Alexop

[Ulax]

@Alexop Hey dude, sounds to me like you want a trustworthy understanding of why the LGBT movement seems to take some of the viewpoints it does in very progressive countries, and whether this is healthy. I'll try and help you with that goal.

Here are my recommendations:

Firstly, if you're not familiar with the spiral dynamics model, I recommend studying it. 

Assuming you aren't familiar, here's a short intro to spiral dynamics:

Secondly, if you find yourself as being aligned with many of the views of Jordan Peterson, I'm confident the 'making sense of Jordan Peterson' video on the actualized.org will help your goals.  

On another note, Leo, the guy who runs actualized.org, has various significantly longer videos on spiral dynamics. These can be found on the main actualized.org channel. If you want a deep understanding of the spiral dynamics model, I'd recommend watching and studying the content of those videos.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Ulax
Grammar

[Alexop]

I know about SD. No I don't subscribe to JP, in fact I feel repulsion to that type of frustrated dudes. It Is not that simple as you are for it or against it. That would be tier 2 for you. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Alexop

[Alexop]

4 minutes ago, KH2 said:

I've thought about this issue for some time. And I rethinked some of my previous stances. This might seem crazy or stupid, but her me out.

I think all these "there are 304049393939 genders, not just 759568 like we previously thought! My pronouns are Zen/Zer/Zerzer and Universe/ApacheAttackHelicopter/Tree" types are, honestly, just ahead of their time - and that's why they're so loserish, and misguided. Because our current technologies are just not there yet.

All these "I can identify as anything" people are just a foreshadowing, a little apetizer of God, reminding us of what will be possible in the future. Because in the distant future, it maybe WILL be possible to ACTUALLY become Apache Helicopter, or transition from a man into a woman COMPLETELY (including DNA-wise), etc.

Maybe, just maybe - all these gender fluid types are not as loserish as it seems at first glance. Maybe, they've just been born 300 years earlier than they should have been.

Good point. But for 2022, won't you think working towards becoming a woman or a man instead of working toward becoming a raccoon or just remaining a boy or a girl would be better for our society?

[Tron]

i mean in theory they arent doing harm to anyone with these changes. Sounds like it falls within human rights. 

[Tyler Robinson]

I was a bit gender fluid for some time of my life at least this year. I wanted to feel what it meant to be a non binary. It was a temporary state of mind where I ran into some gender conflict and felt confused. It felt like it wasn't bad for me to be both men and women at the same time 

 

Later my frustration began to grow, I felt like I simply wanted to feel like a man but wasn't really sensing it inside. I was still attached to being a woman. 

But this short thought experiment like liberated me and made me understand LGBT struggles better. 

If you wanna   understand the struggles of the LGBT community especially that of gender non binary or gender fluid and of trans communities, 

I Recommend only safe person to you who does it in a clear cut non confusing way and his name is - 

Jeffrey Marsh 

 

Watch Jeffrey Marsh videos on YouTube. They are precious and priceless and they encapsulate non binary gender fluid struggles in the most elegant and excellent way.. 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Tyler Robinson

[Tyler Robinson]

18 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Alexop My perspective here is probably incomplete and not fleshed out entirely, but i thought i'd give it a shot.

Pronouns have a grammatical function, they are literally pro-nouns, meaning they are grammatical fillers used to replace names and nouns. It only makes sense for pronouns to be a limited group of words, so that they are used at a high frequency and everybody knows them. If you want to be specific about the thing or person you are talking about, the name or noun is the more precise choice. It can obviously be tedious to repeat a person's name a billion times throughout a conversation, which is why pronouns were invented in the first place. Having more than about 10 to 20 different pronouns or so kind of defeats the purpose of the grammatical medium...so either get rid of them, or acknowledge that pronouns are meant to be a very imprecise and abstract category.

I believe that we need to strike the right balance in this regard. People want to be respected for who they are and that's part of the LGBTQ empowerment. Their standing up for their identities and for the first time owning their inner and outer diversity is a big step up for most of them, and the public performance and acknowledgement thereof is a central part of this. However, i would argue that an excessive demand for other people's respect and validation is a bit of a shadow side of the LGBTQ community. It's powerful that they begin to introspect their identities, and naturally they do find a lot of inner diversity, subtle and conflicting energy forms, masculine and feminine energies opposing and collaborating within themselves. But it is neither practical nor necessary to force people to acknolwedge your identity in every conversation you ever have. That's like wanting your boss to acknowledge that you don't like coffee or the colour blue but do like earl grey tea and a pale shade of purple when that is actually completely irrelevant to the conversation.

In other words, a category is useful in that it always always always reduces things down to one or a few shared characteristics. If we were to be 100% accurate, we would not be able to communicate at all, because every single thing (or worse, every holon) in infinity would need its own name. The power of language lies in its ability to abstract and conceptualise. While we can definitely adapt language to our social needs (....also, the more we investigate something the more disctinctions we make and the more labels we invent for it....), especially in this case, given that gender is quite important to our current society, we should remain aware that there are limits to this. After all, you can respect a person for who they are, without all their identity aspects and preferances being known to or verbally acknowledged by you.

In this specific context, i personally think that it makes much more sense to focus on pronouns that emphasise our shared identity as "human", rather than going down the rabbit hole and feeling like we need to invent a new label for every subtlety of expression and energy that we find within ourselves. 

I'll take your suggestion into consideration. Thank you. 

[Tyler Robinson]

@Judy2 I was really enjoying your journals. I wish you would write journals again. 

 

[Alexop]

3 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I was a bit gender fluid for some time of my life at least this year. I wanted to feel what it meant to be a non binary. It was a temporary state of mind where I ran into some gender conflict and felt confused. It felt like it wasn't bad for me to be both men and women at the same time 

 

Later my frustration began to grow, I felt like I simply wanted to feel like a man but wasn't really sensing it inside. I was still attached to being a woman. 

But this short thought experiment like liberated me and made me understand LGBT struggles better. 

If you wanna   understand the struggles of the LGBT community especially that of gender non binary or gender fluid and of trans communities, 

I Recommend only safe person to you who does it in a clear cut non confusing way and his name is - 

Jeffrey Marsh 

 

Watch Jeffrey Marsh videos on YouTube. They are precious and priceless and they encapsulate non binary gender fluid struggles in the most elegant and excellent way.. 

 

Thanks for the personal story! I'll watch the dude. 

[Alexop]

3 hours ago, Tron said:

i mean in theory they arent doing harm to anyone with these changes. Sounds like it falls within human rights. 

Only if they don't project their views on to others, ESPECIALLY their children. Most people function very well by choosing and working towards feminine or masculine and you should not confuse them. I love being masculine, and love how these two energies sinergise, like a dps/healer team in an RPG. Asimetrical balance.

[Tefikos]

"Living in a society that tries to make you invisible, you need to work extra hard to be visible."

I can't see how their views will hurt children, vice versa, their views will show the children that it is totally okay to be the way you are.  Of course it can get ideological, but so does the opposing views, and they usually are even more ideological.

 

[Alexop]

1 hour ago, Tefikos said:

"Living in a society that tries to make you invisible, you need to work extra hard to be visible."

I can't see how their views will hurt children, vice versa, their views will show the children that it is totally okay to be the way you are.  Of course it can get ideological, but so does the opposing views, and they usually are even more ideological.

 

https://youtu.be/4sPj8HhbwHs

Better let them find out what they are.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Alexop

[Yarco]

People are only going to keep going further and further with pronouns and these sorts of postmodern ideas in general that anything can mean anything. So the question isn't when it goes too far. That's an inevitability. It's what point it has to reach before you'll change your own behavior with regards to it. Ultimately that's something very personal for you. Maybe for you, you recognize trans women as women and use their pronouns. But you don't respect people who identify as raccoons, and refuse to address them as such. Or maybe you humor even the raccoon-people just to avoid causing any problems or getting yourself cancelled. That's up to you.

For me -- I acknowledge that gender is a social construct. If something is a social construct, then it's malleable and changeable. Which is where the problem comes in of people identifying with frog/frogs pronouns. Yes, anyone can be anything they want. There are an infinite number of genders and identities. Because it's all made up. Even man/woman.

But when anyone can choose to be anything, the whole thing loses all meaning for me. So I tend to just let people do whatever they want, but largely disregard it.

Other things that are social constructs include manners and etiquette. In one place it's rude to do a thumbs-up, in another place it's positive. In one place it's rude to slurp your soup out of the bowl, in another place it's a sign of respect for the chef.

When you have an infinite number of genders all competing in a single society, you run into problems like if you had an infinite number of competing etiquette standards. It becomes almost impossible to say or do anything without offending someone else. It becomes a big game of oppression bingo. You want to collect different social constructs to differentiate yourself and command more respect. Someone who's bipoc disabled LGBT ranks above a cis disabled person or a white member of the LGBT community under this paradigm. Instead of being about equality, it ends up dividing people and creating more hierarchies instead of less.

So I've decided to mostly just reject the social construct of gender entirely. I only recognize biological sex, male and female. There's some intersex outliers, arguably only 0.018% of the population and not 1.7% as normally stated: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ But overall it's a lot easier and puts a hard cap of 2 sexes + 1 "other" category, vs infinite possible genders.

If somebody wants me to use their pronouns I'll roll my eyes and do it, the same way I would if someone's etiquette dictates that they want me to take my shoes off before entering their home. Same if a 5 year old comes up to me pretending to be a dinosaur and insisting that I refer to them as such. But I don't have to internally respect or believe they literally are those things, just because society tries to shame me into accepting it. I still have sovereignty to think whatever I want about them within my own head.

I've never been asked to provide my own pronouns, but when it inevitably happens, I'll refuse as a matter of principle. I simply reject the social construct of gender entirely.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Yarco

[Alexop]

@Yarco  Nicely said!

[Roy]

It's gone too far when the acronym is longer than the 140 character limit on Twitter.

[liklikl]

Sexual orientation and gender identity are integral aspects of the inner essence of a person, discrimination and violation of rights on these grounds are unacceptable. If you are having difficulty with this, I recommend visiting this https://us.calmerry.com/try-lgbt-counseling/ my father also did not accept me when I confessed to him that I was gay. A popular symbol among members of the LGBT community is the Pride Flag. It symbolizes pride, diversity, tolerance, and respect for one's neighbor.

Edited January 11, 2023 by liklikl