Why leo says no one is awake

[Kksd74628]

@Someone here

I want to point out to you that you aren't really staying in the subject so try to read my texts with more precision and only answer to what is being said. The only thing I am saying is that there's use of listening to someone wise and you're saying that listening to spiritual guru is waste of time. I said that it could be useful if it gives you a new perspective and you aren't really confirming that point I was making. If that statement is correct then you´d see instantly why listening to someone wise is good. Maybe more than one pair of eyes is better than one.

[Consilience]

No one is saying hand one’s ultimate authority over to a guru, although even that can have a certain power if you’ve found a trustworthy, legitimate guru. No one is saying a guru can give you enlightenment. A guru, teacher, guide merely facilitates a more efficient path to awakening than trying to do it alone. When walking the path completely alone, one is bound to become gridlocked in their own shadows, hidden biases and beliefs, and ultimately stuck in self-deception. Having feedback, in any domain whether spiritual, intellectual, physical, is indispensable. Missing this point is a sign of foolishness and arrogance.
 

Having feedback is not the same as believing the guru can give you awakening. It is a position of trusting that what comes from within and with out are both sources of information. Learning to discern which ‘frequencies’ of information are helpful, again both external and internal, is part of the cultivation of wisdom and intuition.

As an aside, everyone who’s parroting this of independence is missing the fundamental point that there was never such a thing as independence. You wouldn’t even be in a position to take a stance on independent authority if it weren’t for numberless external factors (including teachers!) paving some kind of path for you to walk. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Consilience

[Carl-Richard]

I think what Leo is doing is different from spirituality. Call it psychonautics or something. There are many things Leo is doing that I would consider unspiritual, and there are other things which expand on such insights, and I think the desire to call other spiritual gurus "not awake" is a manifestation of both.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Gesundheit2]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To reach the highest levels you'll have to leave all the human shit behind.

You can't tell that to a newbie because they will use it as an excuse to bypass the construction phase. You've read hundreds of books written by humans before you reached this point so you were ready to make the next step. I know you're probably aware of this but it seems a bit careless to state it that way when most people aren't great at reading context, especially when they see the words "highest levels" which are very appealing to the ego.

But even so, it's not like there's a beginning or an end to construction and deconstruction. These processes are happening all the time, simultaneously. There isn't one ship but many, nearly an infinite number of ships, just not necessarily with the label "guru".

The process of awakening is a process of learning/conditioning and unlearning/deconditioning. And unless you've learned everything to be learnt in the entire universe and then unlearnt all of it, then you aren't really at the highest levels yet (even though relative to other humans it might be the highest or somewhere near that). How much you learn = the maximum potential of your awakenings after you unlearn. There's also the realization that awakening happens through learning, too. God is everywhere, within life and within death.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Breakingthewall]

@Consilience and where are you going to find a teacher who is enlightened? Of course if there were it would be a huge advantage. but they barely exist. and less that they use psychedelics. my path includes psychedelics, no doubt. I would say that in the future there will be legitimate teachers, but today it is almost impossible to find. for me my teachers are you guys, who are more like students, the same as me. and I try to contribute mine. let's see if we all make a decent teacher

[Kksd74628]

@Breakingthewall

Point of spirituality shouldn't be reaching state in the first place, but to live life well. Also what enlightenment even means, because there are so many different definition and sides to it. As long as teacher gives you good advices and makes you better person I wouldn't mind listening to one. As long as there is someone who has some information that you don't it is beneficial to listen to him/her. Usually those gurus have some wisdom to convey and it doesn't always need to be something which is related to just spiritual practice. There's word practice for a reason. It's practice to have good life. Peace.

[Inliytened1]

15 hours ago, Consilience said:

 

It’s really quite simple. If you are God, and God is solipsistic, any teacher is also a manifestation of you.

This is true  - but the point of saying kill the Buddha or be your own authority is meant for one who isn't yet awake to being God.  If they aren't yet awake, then putting authority into other will not allow them to ever awaken because they are still looking outside themselves for Truth and not within. Regardless, the main thing is that you are doing the spiritual practices and self inquiry, contemplation, psychedelics, etc.   And once you awake you will transcend all teachers and teachings..Now..after you awaken - then yes -- you can read a book or watch a video by someone else and realize that this is your mind and your writing reflecting back to you..(all authorities are you) and yet you can get something out of it that perhaps you didn't know as the ego.   You can also realize it was always your own mind in those other gurus leaving you breadcrumbs to wake up.    But most of the time reading books or watching videos after awakening  will be for more practical, relative stuff.  Relatively speaking you don't need an external source to give you Truth, in fact it cannot.  You must look within.   Afterwards, yes of course all external sources collapse into you as the Absolute.  Prior to, though,and dualistically speaking, they are external and separate. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Breakingthewall

Point of spirituality shouldn't be reaching state in the first place, but to live life well. Also what enlightenment even means, because there are so many different definition and sides to it. As long as teacher gives you good advices and makes you better person I wouldn't mind listening to one. As long as there is someone who has some information that you don't it is beneficial to listen to him/her. Usually those gurus have some wisdom to convey and it doesn't always need to be something which is related to just spiritual practice. There's word practice for a reason. It's practice to have good life. Peace.

enlightened is that he has transcended the limits of his ego mind, and I don't see how that can be conveyed. Only you can take the necessary steps. There is a path, exclusive to you, and each step becomes obvious when it is time to take it. Perhaps, as they say, the teacher will appear when the student is ready

[Kksd74628]

@Inliytened1

Can't you see that you both agree already ? He never said that you shouldn't look inward, but just replied to @Someone here and said that there are benefits in listening to other people.

@Breakingthewall

The point is not to convey experience, but to convey a way to have one.

[Breakingthewall]

15 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is true  - but the point of saying kill the Buddha or be your own authority is meant for one who isn't yet awake to being God.  If they aren't yet awake, then putting authority into other will not allow them to ever awaken because they are still looking outside themselves for Truth and not within. Regardless, the main thing is that you are doing the spiritual practices and self inquiry, contemplation, psychedelics, etc.   And once you awake you will transcend all teachers and teachings..Now..after you awaken - then yes -- you can read a book or watch a video by someone else and realize that this is your mind and your writing reflecting back to you..(all authorities are you) and yet you can get something out of it that perhaps you didn't know as the ego.   You can also realize it was always your own mind in those other gurus leaving you breadcrumbs to wake up.    But most of the time reading books or watching videos after awakening  will be for more practical, relative stuff.  Relatively speaking you don't need an external source to give you Truth, in fact it cannot.  You must look within.   Afterwards, yes of course all external sources collapse into you as the Absolute.  Prior to, though,and dualistically speaking, they are external and separate. 

Agree with that. A teacher when you are not enlightened could be easily an obstacle. The truth is in you, not in anyone else. But a teacher who tells you how to meditate, how to do psychedelic, how to integrate, could be useful. But for that we have this forum

Edited September 27, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Agree with that. A teacher when you are not enlightened could be easily an obstacle. The truth is in you, not in anyone else

The teacher is literally you. You're constructing a duality.

[Nilsi]

28 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I think what Leo is doing is different from spirituality. Call it psychonautics or something. There are many things Leo is doing that I would consider unspiritual, and there are other things which expand on such insights, and I think the desire to call other spiritual gurus "not awake" is a manifestation of both.

I would consider the whole "you have to become a cup of tea to understand consciousness," as "psychonautics," but his emphasis on becoming more intelligent and conscious is just pushing the envelope on human evolution/development, which I personally find very intriguing and don't really see anyone doing on such a high level (maybe Schmachtenberger, but he's really covert about it).

I guess good old spirituality by the likes of Eckhart Tolle or Rupert Spira transcend all this "seeking," but it's also rather boring and stale.

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The teacher is literally you. You're constructing a duality.

But you don't know it's you yet.   You place finding Truth in a duality you constructed- which is second order.  You cannot become 1sr order from second order.

[Kksd74628]

@Carl-Richard

I wouldn't want to be conversation police here, but it seems that all the times when people are talking anything related to spirituality they just tell one nugget of information as an attack to other nugget of information. Can't you see that you and @Breakingthewall actually talk about different things. He showed the importance of experiencing something by yourself and you just said that you make duality if you don't see the teacher being you. You are talking in different levels and about different things . Maybe I could make new thread soon about how to communicate with other people on the forum. We on the forum aren't so different after all.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Kksd74628
Typo

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

guess good old spirituality by the likes of Eckhart Tolle

Tolle is a genius when you have an ego that is bombing you with suffering. When this stops, Tolle is done. Where is a teacher for those who really are in the path of totally trascend the ego? Of becoming infinite? I think we are pioneers. There is almost nothing or real spirituality because psychedelic for spirituality used systematically, is something new. without it, real spirituality is for very few. If I remember correctly, Hawkins said one for every 23 million. I guess he would have half invented it because, how to know that? but maybe it's close

[Consilience]

46 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is true  - but the point of saying kill the Buddha or be your own authority is meant for one who isn't yet awake to being God.  If they aren't yet awake, then putting authority into other will not allow them to ever awaken because they are still looking outside themselves for Truth and not within. Regardless, the main thing is that you are doing the spiritual practices and self inquiry, contemplation, psychedelics, etc.   And once you awake you will transcend all teachers and teachings..Now..after you awaken - then yes -- you can read a book or watch a video by someone else and realize that this is your mind and your writing reflecting back to you..(all authorities are you) and yet you can get something out of it that perhaps you didn't know as the ego.   You can also realize it was always your own mind in those other gurus leaving you breadcrumbs to wake up.    But most of the time reading books or watching videos after awakening  will be for more practical, relative stuff.  Relatively speaking you don't need an external source to give you Truth, in fact it cannot.  You must look within.   Afterwards, yes of course all external sources collapse into you as the Absolute.  Prior to, though,and dualistically speaking, they are external and separate. 

You’ve got it backwards. A non awake being needs a teacher more than someone who’s awakened. Why is it so difficult to see how a teacher would be helpful? Why is it so difficult to see a teacher being helpful is not the same as thinking a teacher can give you awaking?

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, Consilience said:

You’ve got it backwards. A non awake being needs a teacher more than someone who’s awakened. Why is it so difficult to see how a teacher would be helpful? Why is it so difficult to see a teacher being helpful is not the same as thinking a teacher can give you awaking?

Yes but balance again is key - they need them really only to provide the framework and point you to the tools..that's it.  Those are the breadcrumbs I mentioned..  But what tends to happen is you place too much into them and then it becomes a hindrance and not a help.  Thus...buy the Buddha a drink, pick his brain for a bit - then cut his head off.  Remember the song by The Police?  Wrapped around your finger?  Well, the servant must become the Master

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Inliytened1

[Carl-Richard]

52 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

But you don't know it's you yet.   You place finding Truth in a duality you constructed- which is second order.  You cannot become 1sr order from second order.

Then it's impossible to awaken, with or without a guru, because if you're not awake, you're by definition constructing dualities, e.g. that there is even a truth to be found. You can never circumvent that problem in parts. You have to address the structure behind it, and a teacher is way too helpful for that to not take use of.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[axiom]

Any attachment to the idea of teachers or teachings is simply more story. 

Does a teacher seem to be needed within the dream? Absolutely yes. It seems totally logical within the dream. The very idea that one could get from A to B without following some path or some process seems absurd.

Is a teacher actually needed? Absolutely not. 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

I would consider the whole "you have to become a cup of tea to understand consciousness," as "psychonautics," but his emphasis on becoming more intelligent and conscious is just pushing the envelope on human evolution/development, which I personally find very intriguing and don't really see anyone doing on such a high level (maybe Schmachtenberger, but he's really covert about it).

I guess good old spirituality by the likes of Eckhart Tolle or Rupert Spira transcend all this "seeking," but it's also rather boring and stale.

It's not stale. It's just simple and ubiquitous. If you have a desire to be original and push the envelope of human cognition, you can do that outside of spirituality. The "state > growth" position is why it's better described as psychonautics. If a state is not integrated into your being and made into a platform for organic growth, then it's either forgotten or outsourced to the intellect, and the latter is inherently anti-spiritual.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Carl-Richard