What is Self?

[BipolarGrowth]

Enjoy your avijjā ? 

Any teaching of Self taken to its conclusion will reveal anattā. 

Intellectual understanding of anattā is not the same as perceptual recognization of anattā in the entire sensory field. Perceptual recognization of anattā in the entire sensory field is not the same as the irreversible birth into seeing things as they are that occurs when anattā is no longer a glimpse but a living 24/7/365.25 reality. 

Anattā can more precisely be defined as non-substantiality of self rather than simply no self. This is to say that there is no essence. There is no immutable quality that has any continuity that could be pointed to as Self. The later formless jhānas reveal this quite clearly. Even consciousness is dependent upon the arising of other more subtle constituents of experience. 

[axiom]

44 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Enjoy your avijjā ? 

Any teaching of Self taken to its conclusion will reveal anattā. 

Intellectual understanding of anattā is not the same as perceptual recognization of anattā in the entire sensory field. Perceptual recognization of anattā in the entire sensory field is not the same as the irreversible birth into seeing things as they are that occurs when anattā is no longer a glimpse but a living 24/7/365.25 reality. 

Anattā can more precisely be defined as non-substantiality of self rather than simply no self. This is to say that there is no essence. There is no immutable quality that has any continuity that could be pointed to as Self. The later formless jhānas reveal this quite clearly. Even consciousness is dependent upon the arising of other more subtle constituents of experience. 

I agree with this.

The criticism of 'no self' around here is in part a justifiable scepticism. After all - as you've pointed out - it can often be nothing other than an intellectual understanding. 

But sometimes the criticism is simply ignorance and/or ego preservation - merely transposing the 'I' to what seems like a different heirarchical level ("God")

True No-Self is not something that can be understood or grasped in any way. But it can be recognised, lived. As you say, not simply as a glimpse but as absolute day-to-day reality. If seen it cannot be unseen and thus cannot be "transcended". It is the end. No one is left.

Edited September 19, 2022 by axiom

[Inliytened1]

47 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Enjoy your avijjā ? 

Any teaching of Self taken to its conclusion will reveal anattā. 

Intellectual understanding of anattā is not the same as perceptual recognization of anattā in the entire sensory field. Perceptual recognization of anattā in the entire sensory field is not the same as the irreversible birth into seeing things as they are that occurs when anattā is no longer a glimpse but a living 24/7/365.25 reality. 

Anattā can more precisely be defined as non-substantiality of self rather than simply no self. This is to say that there is no essence. There is no immutable quality that has any continuity that could be pointed to as Self. The later formless jhānas reveal this quite clearly. Even consciousness is dependent upon the arising of other more subtle constituents of experience. 

Stop wallowing in concept and wake the fuck up.   Way too much concept.  

Edited September 19, 2022 by Inliytened1

[axiom]

6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Stop wallowing in concept and wake the fuck up.   Way too much concept.  

Fair enough, a thorn to remove a thorn.

Read between the lines though and you may notice that it's anti-concept. 

P.S. Language!

Edited September 19, 2022 by axiom

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Godishere said:

@Inliytened1 I know this horse has probably been beat to death but what do you think is stopping me from recognizing myself as God at this very moment? 

Fear is hesitation, contemplation, fear is the belief in right and wrong, the belief in pro and con. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Razard86

[SOUL]

S-elf....could it be?????? Satan elf!

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

the self is a construction, it is made of preference, memories, stories. if you completely transcend it, the void remains. nothing at all. zero.

but...the void is. it is. that is where the point is. at the moment that the void manifests itself as being, it is everything, it is absolutely everything that it can be, infinite plenitude, limitless. So, if the void is... what is it? Is you. there is no other possibility. You are that.

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the self is a construction, it is made of preference, memories, stories. if you completely transcend it, the void remains. nothing at all. zero.

 

False.  Divinity remains.   God remains.

[Breakingthewall]

30 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

False.  Divinity remains.   God remains.

It's not false, god is nothing, that's why there is no self but you are god same time. The nothing, zero, for some reason , is everything. Probably because the fact to be nothing is the absence of limits, and can't be otherwise . 

in the end, everything is a mirage. but a mirage is.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Razard86]

28 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's not false, god is nothing, that's why there is no self but you are god same time. The nothing, zero, for some reason , is everything. Probably because the fact to be nothing is the absence of limits, and can't be otherwise . 

in the end, everything is a mirage. but a mirage is.

Its only a mirage....if there is no attachment. Love...makes the mirage real...that is how it works....

[BipolarGrowth]

@Inliytened1 well usually when I say “Just This” people don’t get much out of it hence the conceptual explanation. I’m pointing back to experience just as it is after dissolving the illusion of continuity of a self. 
 

As someone pointed out, what I’m saying is anti-concept. It’s the natural way experience works. 

[Razard86]

5 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Even consciousness is dependent upon the arising of other more subtle constituents of experience. 

^ Please elaborate on this point......you said consciousness is dependent. Through this logic you just presented without subtle constituents what would happen to consciousness?

In fact....in your opinion...what is consciousness?

[BipolarGrowth]

@Razard86 I’m going to just quote a description of one of such less fabricated potential experiences than consciousness from an expert as I’ve likely only truly “been there” one time as far as this specific state goes. The standard jhanas are often seen as being progressively less fabricated states until you go past the eighth jhana to the cessation of perception and feeling which is essentially the opposite of experience. 
 

“The Eighth Jhana, Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception

If meditators wish to attain the eighth jhana, they can simply hang out in Nothingness until they get bored with perception entirely and understand that even the profoundly subtle perception that is Nothingness is subtly disconcerting or dissatisfying. Thus, the mind will eventually shift on its own to the state with the perplexing but thoroughly appropriate title of “Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception”, hereafter “the eighth jhana” or “j8” for the sake of brevity.

This state is largely incomprehensible. There is no reasonable way to attempt to describe it, save that it is a mind state. I am tempted to say that in it we are simultaneously focused so narrowly that we notice nothing and yet so broadly focused that we don’t notice even that, but such a description doesn’t do this state justice. Another way I sometimes think of this state is like what happens when you turn off an old, tube-driven black-and-white television when the screen goes blank and just before it shuts off there is this tiny pale dot in the middle of the screen. It is like what happens just at the moment that dot is right on the edge of being totally gone, as if you froze in time that edge right between the dot being there and not being there and had it apply to everything in your whole sensate world. One way or another, there is complete inattention to diversity, or divestment from attention to multiplicity, however you wish to think of it. The eighth jhana is the highest of the standard ordinary states of concentration that can be attained (ignoring the attainment of nirodha samapatti, also known as “the cessation of perception and feeling”, and some more unusual jhanic goodies detailed later). 

This state is contrasted with the first seven jhanas in that it is not possible to investigate this state, because it is too incomprehensible.”

Consciousness is basically the same as awareness in my vocabulary if that tells you anything. Consciousness and awareness are essentially the same as experience other than a handful of rare states which are still experiential but happening at more subtle levels than consciousness or awareness. 
 

If you want to read more description about the eight jhana, this is the source that was quoted: https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iii-the-samatha-jhanas/28-the-formless-realms/

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

@Razard86 I’m going to just quote a description of one of such less fabricated potential experiences than consciousness from an expert as I’ve likely only truly “been there” one time as far as this specific state goes. The standard jhanas are often seen as being progressively less fabricated states until you go past the eighth jhana to the cessation of perception and feeling which is essentially the opposite of experience. 
 

“The Eighth Jhana, Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception

If meditators wish to attain the eighth jhana, they can simply hang out in Nothingness until they get bored with perception entirely and understand that even the profoundly subtle perception that is Nothingness is subtly disconcerting or dissatisfying. Thus, the mind will eventually shift on its own to the state with the perplexing but thoroughly appropriate title of “Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception”, hereafter “the eighth jhana” or “j8” for the sake of brevity.

This state is largely incomprehensible. There is no reasonable way to attempt to describe it, save that it is a mind state. I am tempted to say that in it we are simultaneously focused so narrowly that we notice nothing and yet so broadly focused that we don’t notice even that, but such a description doesn’t do this state justice. Another way I sometimes think of this state is like what happens when you turn off an old, tube-driven black-and-white television when the screen goes blank and just before it shuts off there is this tiny pale dot in the middle of the screen. It is like what happens just at the moment that dot is right on the edge of being totally gone, as if you froze in time that edge right between the dot being there and not being there and had it apply to everything in your whole sensate world. One way or another, there is complete inattention to diversity, or divestment from attention to multiplicity, however you wish to think of it. The eighth jhana is the highest of the standard ordinary states of concentration that can be attained (ignoring the attainment of nirodha samapatti, also known as “the cessation of perception and feeling”, and some more unusual jhanic goodies detailed later). 

This state is contrasted with the first seven jhanas in that it is not possible to investigate this state, because it is too incomprehensible.”

Consciousness is basically the same as awareness in my vocabulary if that tells you anything. Consciousness and awareness are essentially the same as experience other than a handful of rare states which are still experiential but happening at more subtle levels than consciousness or awareness. 
 

If you want to read more description about the eight jhana, this is the source that was quoted: https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iii-the-samatha-jhanas/28-the-formless-realms/

I'm not asking you to give me some other person's teaching. Tell me in your own words. You can use someone else's words as analogies.

But I want you to tell me in your own words. Reply in a way that what you say....you can truly say....are your own expressions. I'm not going to read about jhana's that is how you get lost in conceptualization. This is why I stayed away from all these ancient teachings and looked for methods that clarified what happened. 

A master can summarize anything in his own words. A student has to give you the master's words. If you are here to express your beliefs...use your own words. Don't tell me about a jhana. Describe it as if it was an event that happened yesterday.

Do you see trip reports written the way you are describing it? You would need a translator...to even get to the bottom of all that.

[BipolarGrowth]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

I'm not asking you to give me some other person's teaching. Tell me in your own words. You can use someone else's words as analogies.

But I want you to tell me in your own words. Reply in a way that what you say....you can truly say....are your own expressions. I'm not going to read about jhana's that is how you get lost in conceptualization. This is why I stayed away from all these ancient teachings and looked for methods that clarified what happened. 

A master can summarize anything in his own words. A student has to give you the master's words. If you are here to express your beliefs...use your own words. Don't tell me about a jhana. Describe it as if it was an event that happened yesterday.

Do you see trip reports written the way you are describing it? You would need a translator...to even get to the bottom of all that.

To put my experience with the eighth jhana in a nutshell: it maxes out the capabilities of consciousness in a freeze-frame sort of way that makes kind of no sense at all to describe and cannot be recalled accurately. All you can really say is “there was sort of something” but there definitely was no room for an individual self, human body, human mind, etc. I just shared his descriptions as he has far more experience with that specific state which is one of the best examples behind the point I was trying to make when I said what you asked about in the earlier post. 
 

I’m by no means a master of the state known as the eight jhana which is exactly why I quoted someone else. I’m not claiming to be a master of shamatha practices. I’m intermediate to advanced depending on which sample of people you’re choosing from a when it comes to that. I’m far more developed on the insight/vipassana axis of development however. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by BipolarGrowth

[axiom]

@BipolarGrowth There is no consciousness in the 8th Jhana. Whatever was formerly considered to be consciousness is so extremely magnified that it dissolves back into the ocean of the absolute - simply appearance.

At this point all appearance is seen as being on a completely equal footing. Tree, ocean, sky, awareness. All appearances, all God, all infinity - which belongs to no one.

My first business 25 years ago was actually called J8. No particular reason behind it - I just thought it looked cool. I knew nothing of Buddhism or Hinduism or jhanas back then. 

[Razard86]

14 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

To put my experience with the eighth jhana in a nutshell: it maxes out the capabilities of consciousness in a freeze-frame sort of way that makes kind of no sense at all to describe and cannot be recalled accurately. All you can really say is “there was sort of something” but there definitely was no room for an individual self, human body, human mind, etc. I just shared his descriptions as he has far more experience with that specific state which is one of the best examples behind the point I was trying to make when I said what you asked about in the earlier post. 
 

I’m by no means a master of the state known as the eight jhana which is exactly why I quoted someone else. I’m not claiming to be a master of shamatha practices. I’m intermediate to advanced depending on which sample of people you’re choosing from a when it comes to that. I’m far more developed on the insight/vipassana axis of development however. 

Respectfully I don't give a damn about some master....I also don't give a damn about all this humility lol. You are BipolarGrowth the legendary BipolarGrowth. That supposed master could NEVER BE YOU!!! Your unique expression, your unique interpretation, your unique perspective, don't allow others to sully it with their point of view. Drop the dogma, its a guide, drop the labels its all a guide! Find your own unique expression and give us mere underlings a glimpse of your beautiful mind!!!!

 

[VeganAwake]

It's the physical and mental experience of being a real individual(me) localized as or within the body.

That very same illusion of self will also identify as the higher self or as god or whatever it needs to keep itself intact.

♥ 

Edited September 21, 2022 by VeganAwake

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

It's the physical and mental experience of being a real individual(me) localized as or within the body.

That very same illusion of self will also identify as the higher self or as god or whatever it needs to keep itself intact.

♥ 

Let's see....imagine that they give you anesthesia, propofol, and you cease to exist for x time. at that time, effectively, there is no self. but if that time ends, and there is self again, it could be said that that time did not really exist. only something like that can be described as no self. if your senses are deactivated and you have no connection to your body, and then your memory is erased and you are left in the state of a fetus, a timeless void of being, without any reference, any idea, any perspective, you are still you. you are, and you cannot cease to be, except by ceasing to exist, and you cannot cease to exist for one simple reason: you exist now. if you ceased to exist forever, that is that non-existence would be infinite, absolute, and it is not so since you exist. a second is eternity. so it's you, now in your body, before as a fetus, and then as nothing

[amanen]

I think a lot of people into Buddhism or no self have a hard time with this notion of the Self, because they are too focused on the specific forms that arise. The Self isn't an added quality to any forms, the forms themselves are a part of the Self. They fixate on a specific quality and saying it's just that specific quality. Red is just red. But they don't see that red is an experience, that it is consciousness, only in the form of the color red. They don't see that the forms are actually formless, and that the formless is the unchanging quality in the experience. All the specific forms change, but something does not change, and that is the fact that everything that changes is consciousness, that everything is indeed experience. Experience just changes forms. But it is all still experience, still consciousness, but because consciousness is formless we only see the forms instead of the formless (simply because its formless).