Can stage yellow support the death penalty?

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

There is nothing to leave.

   There is nothing to leave...but to believe yourself.

[Kksd74628]

@Inliytened1

Isn't selfishness equal to caring one part more than another. If that definition is correct then the decision which makes everyone the most happy as a whole in our society should be correct decision. If hypothetically killing someone would make society as a whole feel better then that would also mean that it would be good decision to make. That is the first thing which needs to be accepted. After that we can continue this discussion to value if that decision improves happiness and if not it shouldn't be done and vice versa. That's the way to think these hard moral questions.

[MarkKol]

On 9/3/2022 at 2:28 AM, Leo Gura said:

I support death penalty.

Some people are too far gone and a huge drain on resources.

"Scandinavia is the most conscious "

Scandinavia: you committed 10 murders so here's a house with a nice lawn, you are also allowed to have a job and a online social life. Enjoy

I (don't wish) I was exaggerating:

 

 

[King Merk]

1 hour ago, MarkKol said:

"Scandinavia is the most conscious "

Scandinavia: you committed 10 murders so here's a house with a nice lawn, you are also allowed to have a job and a online social life. Enjoy

I (don't wish) I was exaggerating:

 

 

Wow that’s absolutely amazing. This is what a “correctional facility” is suppose to look like.

Shoutout Finland. 

[Danioover9000]

@MarkKol

7 hours ago, MarkKol said:

"Scandinavia is the most conscious "

Scandinavia: you committed 10 murders so here's a house with a nice lawn, you are also allowed to have a job and a online social life. Enjoy

I (don't wish) I was exaggerating:

 

 

   Jesus Christ, the world is a strange place.

[DocWatts]

23 hours ago, MarkKol said:

"Scandinavia is the most conscious "

Scandinavia: you committed 10 murders so here's a house with a nice lawn, you are also allowed to have a job and a online social life. Enjoy

I (don't wish) I was exaggerating:

 

 

If the choice is between the human rights abuses and hellish conditions of the US prison system, and a system that's humane at the cost of affording a comfortable existence to some of its worst offenders, that's not a difficult choice to make.

 

[Danioover9000]

@DocWatts

10 hours ago, DocWatts said:

If the choice is between the human rights abuses and hellish conditions of the US prison system, and a system that's humane at the cost of affording a comfortable existence to some of its worst offenders, that's not a difficult choice to make.

 

   That was specifically focused on the worst offenders getting that lavish treatment instead of the death penalty, rather than the general offenders of a prison system.

   If the topic was about the USA's prison system and whether we should or shouldn't increase or decrease humane treatment for the general prison population, then yes, it's likely we can agree on increasing humane treatment and including rehabilitation facilities.

   But the main focus is on the most worst offending types of prisoners, who don't care about the well-being of the general population at large and are at high of offending again and whether we should death penalty them or not. A stage yellow individual can give nuanced takes on both sides of the debate and discussion, and unpack most of the ramifications of those decisions, and trolley problem you at almost every corner, until you see the limits of your own logical constructions back at you.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Danioover9000

[trenton]

On 9/8/2022 at 0:20 AM, MarkKol said:

"Scandinavia is the most conscious "

Scandinavia: you committed 10 murders so here's a house with a nice lawn, you are also allowed to have a job and a online social life. Enjoy

I (don't wish) I was exaggerating:

 

 

The video mentioned that Scandinavia still has a recidivism rate of 1 in 3. This is a low rate compared to the United States because there are more job opportunities to help people get into a position where they don't need to commit more crimes for survival.

Even so there are still those who fail to rehabilitate. The evidence is in the video that dangerous offenders could still hurt you once they leave prison.

On the other hand Scandinavia seems safer because they have a very low rate of imprisonment. This is about 3000, a low percentage of the population compared to the United States with millions in prison. Maybe the United States would be better off with this kind of system, but it would need to fix the fact that repeat violent offenders are leaving the system. Maybe the death penalty could be used for repeat offenders once it is made obvious that rehabilitation isn't working. That should deter some of these crimes, keeping the prisons with as low of a population as possible. This should definitely be combined with preventing crimes through providing for the poor and using other social safety nets. 

Do you think the death penalty would improve this system?

[Danioover9000]

@trenton

49 minutes ago, trenton said:

The video mentioned that Scandinavia still has a recidivism rate of 1 in 3. This is a low rate compared to the United States because there are more job opportunities to help people get into a position where they don't need to commit more crimes for survival.

Even so there are still those who fail to rehabilitate. The evidence is in the video that dangerous offenders could still hurt you once they leave prison.

On the other hand Scandinavia seems safer because they have a very low rate of imprisonment. This is about 3000, a low percentage of the population compared to the United States with millions in prison. Maybe the United States would be better off with this kind of system, but it would need to fix the fact that repeat violent offenders are leaving the system. Maybe the death penalty could be used for repeat offenders once it is made obvious that rehabilitation isn't working. That should deter some of these crimes, keeping the prisons with as low of a population as possible. This should definitely be combined with preventing crimes through providing for the poor and using other social safety nets. 

Do you think the death penalty would improve this system?

   To the overall system? Not too much. I see the death penalty improving parts of the system in the short term, making it clear that the state would not tolerate extremely horrendous acts of humanity and to its citizens.

   However, I do see more trickier applications of the death penalty to some of the types of offenders:

    Children to adolescent, aged roughly between 8 to 12, and 13-17, committed homicide of horrific nature, victims being toddlers, early adolescence and late adolescent years old. The offenders in question are considered minors in the legal system, so the majority of incarcerations would be at juvenile prisons, or to other facilities that house child offenders.

   Offenders, who are not as neatly categorized as complete psychopaths, sociopaths or other. Those with sociopathy, who know what and how to pass psychology assessments, can be tricky to determine the likelihood of repeat offence.

   Those who are falsely accused of a horrific crime, manufactured evidence and state bias against such individuals due to avoidance of paying false imprisonment reparations and to not look bad in the eyes of politicians or the public at large.

   

[DocWatts]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@DocWatts

   That was specifically focused on the worst offenders getting that lavish treatment instead of the death penalty, rather than the general offenders of a prison system.

   If the topic was about the USA's prison system and whether we should or shouldn't increase or decrease humane treatment for the general prison population, then yes, it's likely we can agree on increasing humane treatment and including rehabilitation facilities.

   But the main focus is on the most worst offending types of prisoners, who don't care about the well-being of the general population at large and are at high of offending again and whether we should death penalty them or not. A stage yellow individual can give nuanced takes on both sides of the debate and discussion, and unpack most of the ramifications of those decisions, and trolley problem you at almost every corner, until you see the limits of your own logical constructions back at you.

Okay then a more nuanced take for how to rebuild the US prison system could be use the Scandanvian model of humane treatment as a baseline, with privileges being rescinded for bad behavior, for truly heinous crimes, and for repeat offenses in a reformed criminal justice system where there exist support structures that give individuals a realistic chance to succeed once they leave prison.

Build different types of facilities that prisoners are sent to depending on the severity of the offender's crimes.  No reason that someone who was sentenced for stealing a car should be locked up in the same facility as someone who's committed multiple murders.

The threat of having one's comforts rescinded or being sent to a different type of facility if the bad behavior is eggregius enough would be a better way of incentivizing good behavior; far better than using harsh punitive measures such as solitary confinement (which the UN considers to be torture) for that purpose.

And it should go without saying that we shouldn't be sending nearly as many people to prison as we are, so these reforms would have to coincide with sweeping reforms to our criminal justice system, systemic anti poverty measures, and an end to the (racist) war on drugs.

Not that any of this is a realistic political possibility any time soon; rather it's what a potential SD-Yellow prison system in the United States could look like someday.

Edited September 9, 2022 by DocWatts

[EternalForest]

Life in prison is way worse than the death penalty.

[Kalki Avatar]

@DieFree Death penalty sounds cruel because people imagine it as torture. It doesnt has to be like that. It could simply be, we are going to peacefully log you off from this dimension because you there is no better way to deal with your negatives. 

Or maybe in the future we are simply going to drop these people to some planet were all prisoners can go and survive in wild with other criminals. Basically mad max. That could be the most loving and merciful approach. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Kalki Avatar

[Kksd74628]

@Kalki Avatar

2 hours ago, Kalki Avatar said:

That could be the most loving and merciful approach.

You sure my brother ?

 

[Kalki Avatar]

@Kksd74628 I didnt see the above of scandinavia lol. 

Maybe a combination? 

If they are willing, drop these criminals in a different planet where they only do psychedelics, yoga and learn about consciousness with other criminals. Then, when they are back to earth, they will want to go back and miss how good life was at that beautiful heaven resort. Their punishment will be to make them the most loving people here

 

 

[Kksd74628]

@Kalki Avatar

It's weird that I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or out of your mind right now .

[Leo Gura]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:20 PM, MarkKol said:

"Scandinavia is the most conscious "

Scandinavia: you committed 10 murders so here's a house with a nice lawn, you are also allowed to have a job and a online social life. Enjoy

I (don't wish) I was exaggerating:

 

Just because you can rehabilitate one murderer does not mean you can rehabilitate them all.

I was talking about the ones who cannot be rehabilitated.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Etherial Cat]

On 03/09/2022 at 2:09 AM, DieFree said:

Assuming in this situation the criminal is guilty without doubt. 

No. Not an informed stage Yellow person.

Studies have shown death penalty increases murder in a society, through a phenomenon named brutalization.

State violence shows a pattern that is then reproduced by actors as an appropriate behavior for retaliation against misbehavior. It also cheapens the perceived collective respect due to human life.

[Hatfort]

I don't think so.

There are so many things to consider about criminals and society itself. Was their upbringing fair? Was their mental health fine? What about second chances? Is our justice system flawless? Meaning, what if we impose the death penalty on an innocent man? Can we revive him? Well, with these questions and more in consideration, I'd say no.

I'm not naive, I know some crimes are extremely awful and also provable. But I'm also not naive to think that any justice system is flawless and fair, and also aware that resurrection is impossible. Death penalty shouldn't be, and we should be more humble.

Suck my yellow balls. Sorry, that was red reminiscence.

[flowboy]

On 04/09/2022 at 0:15 AM, Leo Gura said:

It saves resources which can be used to improve the lives of people who need it.

This is really a resource allocation issue. Simple as that. There is no point taking care of an asshole for 40 years. If he's gonna be an asshole we don't gotta bend over backwards to take care of him.

Be ware of idiot compassion.

By that logic, we should also just execute people who are severely mentally ill or mentally disabled to the point of needing constant supervision and care, it's an equal drain on resources.

Someone who has been violent and dangerous, is usually mentally ill or severely traumatized.

They could be diagnosed and medicated, and even if their condition is irredeemable, which it often is not, they could be kept docile in a facility.

So are you saying that people who have never hurt someone, but could be dangerous, because they are mentally ill or mentally disabled, should be shot in order to save resources?

Or are you fine with spending money on care facilities for people, even life long, except if they have committed a terrible crime?

In that case, this is just motivated by retribution, not this utilitarian rationality which you claim. Because the only difference is what they have done in the past.

 

[Tefikos]

12 hours ago, flowboy said:

By that logic, we should also just execute people who are severely mentally ill or mentally disabled to the point of needing constant supervision and care, it's an equal drain on resources.

Someone who has been violent and dangerous, is usually mentally ill or severely traumatized.

They could be diagnosed and medicated, and even if their condition is irredeemable, which it often is not, they could be kept docile in a facility.

So are you saying that people who have never hurt someone, but could be dangerous, because they are mentally ill or mentally disabled, should be shot in order to save resources?

Or are you fine with spending money on care facilities for people, even life long, except if they have committed a terrible crime?

In that case, this is just motivated by retribution, not this utilitarian rationality which you claim. Because the only difference is what they have done in the past.

 

I agree and there is a possibility that no matter how psychopathic the person is, there is a possibiliy for healing. I just read a book where one guy who was a total psychopath, told how he healed completely in the prison. Of course it is a rare case, but it still is possible.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Tefikos
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