Can stage yellow support the death penalty?

[Carl-Richard]

It just feels wrong.

We need to distinguish between killing to neutralize an immediate threat and the death penalty. You can kill in self-defense if somebody is posing an immediate threat to your life. The police can kill you if you're an immediate threat to somebody else's life. A country will kill foreign soldiers who pose an immediate threat to their country. But if you're in jail, you're no longer an immediate threat to anyone. So what message does the state send to its citizens with the death penalty? "We will kill you not because we have to, but because we can".

Edited September 4, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Jannes]

I think its a bit of a moralistic stance that the state takes when it doesnt excecute its criminals. Because the citizens of the state are a product of the state. Why doesnt the state have enough ways to stop and help criminals to not become criminals in the first place? So the state is responsible for it in a certain sense. Its easy to just kill them and not take responsibility for your action. But thats not truth.

[kray]

41 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I think its a bit of a moralistic stance that the state takes when it doesnt excecute its criminals. Because the citizens of the state are a product of the state. Why doesnt the state have enough ways to stop and help criminals to not become criminals in the first place? So the state is responsible for it in a certain sense. Its easy to just kill them and not take responsibility for your action. But thats not truth.

I agree with this, but I think that simply takes time. At the end of the day we need to vote people into office who are willing to reform the system. At the end of the day we the people have the power. We just need to vote for the right people. 

[Leo Gura]

18 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

If he's dead is he going to suffer for killing many others or is someone else just happy that justice was served.   What is justice is relative is it not?  Justice can also be considered not allowing him to hurt others by imprisonment.  This would also humiliate him.  If you kill him he isn't around to reap what he sowed. 

I'm not interested in making him suffer. That would not be a conscious desire. I just don't feel we have to service him for 50 years. Taking care of a guy for 50 years is a huge favor to him, and it's not deserved if he's an asshole.

Death is the reaping of what he sowed. A simple and elegant solution to a dangerous being.

18 hours ago, Yali said:

Murderers are not personally responsible for their actions, so why should we punish them as if they were?

@Leo Gura

By that logic there shouldn't be any punishments for any behavior. It just doesn't work in practice. Society must treat people like they are responsible for their actions.

Taking responsibility is a huge aspect of personal development. So yes, you are responsible if you murder someone. And if you believe you aren't, well, then we are also not responsible by killing you, so you got nothing to complain about.

Again, watch those double standards.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

So what message does the state send to its citizens with the death penalty? "We will kill you not because we have to, but because we can".

The message is a very healthy one: If you don't respect life, we will treat you in kind, and you will feel your karma and get your justice. We don't pussyfoot with assholes and bullies.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The message is a very healthy one: If you don't respect life, we won't treat you in kind and you will feel your karma and get your justice.

How about prevention and healing? How about the message that we don't fuck up people in the first place? How about reducing the overall burden of karma? Grassroots approach, nip it in the bud. Just offering my Alt perspective, not arguing yours at all. You're showing empathy to victims and I deeply appreciate but I'm trying to be Empathetic to both parties. I see the criminal as a victim of the system too. To what extent is everything only and only personal responsibility? Do you agree that people are impacted by their environment and their upbringing too? Why don't they get their karma then? 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Tyler Robinson

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

How do you feel about execution for political reasons? Like in Belarussia, where they basically death sentence all of opposition activists. It's the only country in Europe that still has death sentence

Obviously that's super wrong. Even imprisoning political opponents is wrong unless they broke serious laws.

I am okay with executing terrorist masterminds like Bin Landen as long as we got good evidence he planned it.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

How about prevention and healing? How about the message that we don't fuck up people in the first place? How about reducing the overall burden of karma? Grassroots approach, nip it in the bud. 

That would be my approach to 95% of cases. But then 5% would be people who are beyond help.

You guys act like I want to execute every criminal. No! Just the absolute worst ones.

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That would be my approach to 95% of cases. But then 5% would be people who are beyond help.

You guys act like I want to execute every criminal. No! Just the absolute worst ones.

OK then settled. I agree with you. 

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Vrubel said:

What is a principle worth? 

For me, it's more about principle than compassion, a social and civilizational principle for a government to not kill one's captured people. "Sanctity of life".

But sanctity of life was violated by the criminal in this case. For breaking that princinple there is a fair punishment.

Why let bullies exploit your kindness?

Quote

By your logic, we should just massacre all of the stage red people. 

Good Lord. What a ridiculous strawman. I was talking about the most extreme murderers and psychopaths who are beyond help.

If Stage Red is open to evolving then we create avenues to redeem them.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The message is a very healthy one: If you don't respect life, we will treat you in kind, and you will feel your karma and get your justice. We don't pussyfoot with assholes and bullies.

Ok, so other than deterrence and economics, what does the death penalty reliably achieve? I have a suspicion that people who are pro-death penalty are trying in a roundabout way to justify their feelings of retribution ("well, they deserve it"), because I'm trying to find another example where we can justifiably kill somebody for economical reasons, and the first argument that pops up is "but who deserves to die?" I don't think anyone deserves to die.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

Looks like the deterrent effect is actually not that good. https://www.aclu.org/other/death-penalty-questions-and-answers

So we're stuck with economics. Should we kill severely disabled people?

Edited September 4, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Ok, so other than deterrence and economics, what does the death penalty reliably achieve? I have a suspicion that people who are pro-death penalty are trying in a roundabout way to justify their feelings of retribution ("well, they deserve it"), because I'm trying find another example where we can justifiably kill somebody for economical reasons, and the first argument that pops up is "but who deserves to die?" I don't think anyone deserves to die.

On principle I do not want to babysit an asshole for 50 years. This is unfair to us, the decent people.

This is not really even an economic matter. Decent humans will have to put up with 50 years of bullshit and abuse to house this asshole. Do you get that? You wanna be the guy who deals with that asshole for 50 years? Brings him food, cleans his bed when he shits in it, wipe his blood off the walls, offers him therapy, does his medical exams, guards his cell?

Where is your compassion for the emotional abuse all the decent caretakes have to endure from these psychopaths?

The element here you're missing is how difficult these psychos can be to house safely. Watch some videos of psychos running amok in high security prisons. It's an awful environment to work in. These psychos can fashion weapons out for a spoon and stab you in the eye.

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Should we kill severely disabled people?

Lol, you guys with your absurd strawmans.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Leo Gura

[zurew]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

So we're stuck with economics.

If we go with standard death penalty, then the economic part won't work either. It has a negative effect on the economy, because its much more expensive.

 

[zurew]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Lol, you guys with your absurd strawmans.

Why shouldn't we kill them, if we are basing our moral system on money?

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Why shouldn't we kill them, if we are basing our moral system on money?

Read my post above. This is not mostly about money.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

On principle I do not want to babysit an asshole for 50 years. This is unfair to us, the good people.

This is not really even an economic matter. Decent humans will have to put up with 50 years of bullshit and abuse to house this asshole. Do you get that? You wanna be the guy who deals with that asshole for 50 years? Brings him food, cleans his bed when he shits in it, wipe his blood off the walls, offers him therapy, does his medical exams, guards his cell?

Executioner is not exactly an unproblematic occupation either. Very few people get the death penalty, and you're still stuck with a large population of assholes in prison.

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Decent humans will have to put up with 50 years of bullshit and abuse to house this asshole. Do you get that? You wanna be the guy who deals with that asshole for 50 years? Brings him food, cleans his bed when he shits in it, wipe his blood off the walls, offers him therapy, does his medical exams, guards his cell?

You have this reasoning against innocent people dying , do you think your argument is strong?

We need to be aware of what bullets we need to bite here.

Edited September 4, 2022 by zurew

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

You have this reasoning against innocent people dying , do you think your argument is strong?

I think we can make our system solid enough that innocent people won't be executed.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Executioner is not exactly an unproblematic occupation either.

Vets euthanize thousands of animals. This would be easier than that cause this ain't no innocent dog.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Leo Gura