Hardkill

Is Biden's student loan forgiveness plan okay for the US economy?

67 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, Devin said:

When you say tuition that's per year, yeah that's cheap 50k for a bachelor's from a university, you can pay that off in the first two years out if you got a responsible degree

Cars cost that much

I see NO problem!!!!!!!

How much do you think people with a bachelor's degree are earning right out of college? lol.

Either you're trolling or have no idea how the real world works.


"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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36 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

How much do you think people with a bachelor's degree are earning right out of college? lol.

Either you're trolling or have no idea how the real world works.

You can pay that off in first two years making 40k a year

32, lived on my own for 12 years, never had a loan in my life

Edited by Devin

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   Can we all agree, that not matter whether the policy looks exploitative or beneficial, that fundamentally politics is highly manipulative?

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   Also, if I was Machiavellian, this is also what I'd do, make you feel relieved and in debt to me and my party, because I lifted your debt for you, made you feel relief and a sense of gratitude for me, so now or later vote for me and my party okay? Similar dynamics that China has done to other countries.

   In history, before WW2, Spain was in debt to German and owed millions of Euros to them. In an alternative path, if Hitler was much more manipulative and had less paranoia towards Generals, he could have relieved them of that national debt, provided they ally with Germany against France and Great Britain later, which can give him additional buffer towards the western expansion and allowed Germany to secure and concentrate more towards the eastern hemisphere and deal with Russia. 

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33 minutes ago, Devin said:

You can pay that off in first two years making 40k a year

Okay fine, let's actually use that example then. And let's be charitable and try to pay that loan off in 4 - 5 years instead of two.

That's about $32k a year after taxes, and less than that if you're paying health insurance premiums.

Anyone who's actually tried surviving on their own on around $30k a year (after taxes) when asked to set aside literally half of thier take home pay for student loans, would most likely laugh in your face at the suggestion.

The only way that becomes even remotely feasible is if you're being subsidized by someone else (such as your parents) paying your other living expenses.

And hey no shame in that if you're fortunate enough to have that option, but let's not pretend that a $50k in debt isn't a real burden on a typical person graduating college.

Edited by DocWatts

"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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5 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Okay fine, let's actually use that example then. And let's be charitable and try to pay that loan off in 4 - 5 years instead of two.

That's about $32k a year after taxes, and less than that if you're paying health insurance premiums.

Anyone who's actually tried surviving on their own on around $30k a year (after taxes), and asked to set aside $10k - $15k of that paying off student loans, would most likely laugh in your face at the suggestion.

Only way that becomes even remotely feasible is if you're being subsidized by someone else (such as your parents) paying your other living expenses.

And hey no shame in that if you're fortunate enough to have that option, but let's not pretend that a $50k in debt isn't a real burden on a typical person graduating college.

And I'd punch em' in their face for a degree from the school of hard knocks

You overpayed for your education, you should pay 0 in taxes those 5 years at 40k a year that's 40k more net income right there you unaccounted for. You don't pay taxes on the loan interest and 10k of the loan, housing expense, general living expense and once your adjusted net income is low enough you pay 0.

Get a roommate for two years in a cheap apartment 

11% tax on 20k adjusted income, 7.5%FICA on 40k= $5,400

Edited by Devin

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2 hours ago, Devin said:

You overpayed for your education, you should pay 0 in taxes those 5 years at 40k a year that's 40k more net income right there you unaccounted for. 

The problem with that solution is that it does nothing at all to address the inflated cost of education. (Which to be fair, student loan forgiveness does not address either).

The reason that college is so insanely overpriced in the US is a glaring lack of public funding for higher education, combined with bandaid "solution" of the easy availability of loans, and also a college degree being a barrier of entry for the majority of jobs that pay a livable wage

The way you address this is by replacing student loans with a publicly funded higher education system that's divorced from the private market, ala what already exists in much of the developed world.

Edited by DocWatts

"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Also, if I was Machiavellian, this is also what I'd do, make you feel relieved and in debt to me and my party, because I lifted your debt for you, made you feel relief and a sense of gratitude for me, so now or later vote for me and my party okay? Similar dynamics that China has done to other countries.

   In history, before WW2, Spain was in debt to German and owed millions of Euros to them. In an alternative path, if Hitler was much more manipulative and had less paranoia towards Generals, he could have relieved them of that national debt, provided they ally with Germany against France and Great Britain later, which can give him additional buffer towards the western expansion and allowed Germany to secure and concentrate more towards the eastern hemisphere and deal with Russia. 

   I'm just pointing out how this debt relief can and sometimes is weaponized to recruit you into an ideology just because they saved you in the past, and there's numerous examples in history and other countries worldwide doing this.

   But that doesn't mean to not vote for Biden. Go vote for him and his policies, if those policies benefit you and it makes sense to you and it's aligned with your integrity.

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3 hours ago, DocWatts said:

The problem with that solution is that it does nothing at all to address the inflated cost of education. (Which to be fair, student loan forgiveness does not address either).

The reason that college is so insanely overpriced in the US is a glaring lack of public funding for higher education, combined with bandaid "solution" of the easy availability of loans, and also a college degree being a barrier of entry for the majority of jobs that pay a livable wage

The way you address this is by replacing student loans with a publicly funded higher education system that's divorced from the private market, ala what already exists in much of the developed world.

But what doesn't exist in the rest of the developed world is, ala, the opportunity in the u.s., which is because of our free market system

I don't see inflated college tuition. Yeah ivy league and the top tech schools are the Ferrari model, the rest of the developed world also doesn't have the abundance of those we have. How do you get in the top universities in the socialist countries?you pay or you're really smart. Go to community college 5k a year Tuition, free if poor. No Lambo's for everyone Oprah, sorry

Edited by Devin

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@Devin

56 minutes ago, Devin said:

But what doesn't exist in the rest of the developed world is, ala, the opportunity in the u.s., which is because of our free market system

I don't see inflated college tuition. Yeah ivy league and the top tech schools are the Ferrari model, the rest of the developed world also doesn't have the abundance of those we have. How do you get in the top universities in the socialist countries?you pay or you're really smart. Go to community college 5k a year Tuition, free if poor. No Lambo's for everyone Oprah, sorry

   How so?

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1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Devin

   How so?

Because the majority of people including the ones that proclaim peace love and sharing are primarily motivated by greed and envy. Most of the peace love and sharing people are peace love and sharing cuz they personally have nothing or relatively little to share so they make out in the deal. You put a carrot in front of most of the people in the world to motivate them for what they want, not by giving it to them

I don't really know what you're asking by the vague question, but that's the basis of the conversation in my eyes.

I'm actually a liberal by the way, but obviously don't think much of socialism. I support the loan forgiveness just for the reason of valuing education though, not because it's "fair"

Edited by Devin

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9 hours ago, Devin said:

Charging people a lot delivers better education to the smartest people, the people on full ride scholarships.

How do they get better education compared to giving everyone free education? They study at the same place, with the same people the only difference is that they don't need to pay for it, but they don't get better education.

 

9 hours ago, Devin said:

So the rich people going then are smart then, if you're "not dumb at all" if you're going there, what's the problem with that? Rich kids have the support to put the education to better use.

The problem is that if we go by your way, you are only optimizing for 0.001 people (geniuses) and rich people. That way you are polarizing people much more and you make the gap between the rich and poor even bigger and people who want to study but can't afford it will lose the opportunity to get educated and maybe the opporunity to get out of poverty. 

If you want a somewhat workable democracy and if you want as many educated people around you as possible and if you want an educated society, then you shouldn't put high quality education behind a paywall.

Edited by zurew

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4 minutes ago, zurew said:

How do they get better education compared to giving everyone free education? They study at the same place, with the same people the only difference is that they don't need to pay for it, but they don't get better education.

 

The problem is that if we go by your way, you are only optimizing for 0.001 people (geniuses) and rich people. That way you are polarizing people much more and you make the gap between the rich and poor even bigger and people who want to study but can't afford it will lose the opportunity to get educated and maybe the opporunity to get out of poverty. 

If you want a somewhat workable democracy and if you want as many educated people around you as possible and if you want an educated society, then you shouldn't put high quality education behind a paywall.

Universities make more money and are incentivised

You think you can't get out of poverty with a community college degree? By poverty do you mean not keeping up with the Kardashian's?

Edited by Devin

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@DevinSo your strongest point is that universities make more money,so it worth it?

 

 

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Just now, zurew said:

@DevinSo your strongest point is that universities make more money,so it worth it?

 

 

So they're incentivised HIGHLY, to be THE BEST, competition drives quality.

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@DevinUniversity incentivisation don't have to exclusively come from the money that the students pay.

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19 minutes ago, zurew said:

@DevinUniversity incentivisation don't have to exclusively come from the money that the students pay.

True, so who should decide which universities get how much money and why?

Edited by Devin

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@Devin Most countries who adopted "the free college" or "the making college more accessible" strategy are doing it from taxes.

So yeah, the initial downside could be that people will have to pay more taxes, however thats not necessarily a downside longterm, because if it has a  positive effect on the country's economy, then it will be beneficial for most people, even for people who don't have kids who will go to college.

 

I will concede my point about making it completely free for now, because to my knowledge, there is no clear stat that shows that this is a much better strategy, however I will stay with this point: Government funding some % of university fees seems a good strategy to me, becuase competition between universities won't be lost but on the otherhand, middle-class and lower-class citizens will be able to access college more easily and people won't need to this heavily focus on how they will be able to pay back giant student loans after they graduate.

 

22 hours ago, Devin said:

Which of those free education countries has the stronger economy than the u.s.?

15 hours ago, Devin said:

But what doesn't exist in the rest of the developed world is, ala, the opportunity in the u.s., which is because of our free market system

Why do you equate the opportunity that exist in the US primarily to the free market system?

Edited by zurew

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@zurew public universities are 40% government funded in the u.s., been for years

Competition. Because of how the majority of people are motivated. Although I actually see a better way which is similar to what the socialists are pushing, but most of these socialists are just greedy and lazy.

I don't mean the way it is is the way it should always be, just what you're pushing leads to dystopia; see the third attractor guy Daniel

People are still primarily motivated by greed and envy in the u.s., you won't have what close knit small euro countries will have, and that euro dynamic also doesn't come with what the u.s. has.

It's naturally moving that direction, but pushing it unnaturally causes backlash the other direction

Edited by Devin

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I can't believe this is actually happening. I really like the sound of it. Just didn't think it would happen.

Anyone know how its going to work? I.e. is Biden empowering this move via an executive act? Or something else?

Also, anyone have any sources of political commentary on why Biden chose to do this now?

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