Hugo Oliveira

Brazil has a high level presidential candidate

29 posts in this topic

His name is Ciro Gomes and he seems exceptionally competent showing a deep understanding of whatever subject he is asked about. He also demonstrates a high level of integrity, open-mindedness, and love for his purpose of leading the nation instead of a hunger for power.

Unfortunately, the country is drowned in SD blue and green wars, right and left, with two top-rated candidates: Bolsonaro and Lula. Both absolutely known for their lack of integrity. 

I'm very little aware and interested in politics. But this situation is very alarming to me. I feel like Ciro may have the capacity to really implement positive changes and explore our huge potential as a nation.  

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@Hugo Oliveira Could you provide an example? I.e. a short video of him speaking about something


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What is Lula's lack of integrity?


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@Leo Gura

He and Dilma (who is his ally, deeply supported and controlled by him)  alone, governed the country for 14 years without changing almost anything in the dysfunctional Brazilian infrastructure. He has a huge responsibility for the actual Brazilian economic crisis. 

One of the main sources of his popularity is the practice of compensatory public politics. Basically, he constructed huge propaganda based on low-quality social politics. 

He was in jail, condemned after being involved in multiple corruption scandals like many of his allies. 

He supported and provoked the election of Dilma Rousseff as a manipulative way to maintain his influence and control of power. Dilma is clearly an incompetent politician and a highly limited person cognitively. 

Through his charismatic personality, he is able to convey incoherent and limited ideas and even lies without losing support from the public. 

He doesn't demonstrate any enthusiasm, greatness, or competence in regard to governing the country. He seems to me like a manipulative guy desperate for power. Many of his electors today just don't want to have Bolsonaro again and Lula presents himself as salvation.

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@Ulax It may be hard to find a clear sample in English. I think some notion of context would be necessary to get his messages. 

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On 25/08/2022 at 4:22 PM, Hugo Oliveira said:

deep understanding of whatever subject he is asked about.

He just uses complicated words, this does not mean he deeply understand anything.

On 25/08/2022 at 4:22 PM, Hugo Oliveira said:

He also demonstrates a high level of integrity

He deliberately LIES as he compares Lula with Bolsonaro which only helps Bolsonaro. This is a LACK of integrity in my book.

On 25/08/2022 at 4:22 PM, Hugo Oliveira said:

open-mindedness

He absolutely LACKS open-mindedness, in fact, he is very close-minded which is the reason he couldn't form any alliances, constantly fights with everyone and can't TALK or find comon-ground with anyone. 

On 25/08/2022 at 4:22 PM, Hugo Oliveira said:

love for his purpose of leading the nation instead of a hunger for power.

If this was the case, he would be helping Lula beat Bolsonaro to become his Minister, but Ciro loves to be the center of attention, this is hunger for power and recognition.

 

7 hours ago, Hugo Oliveira said:

He and Dilma (who is his ally, deeply supported and controlled by him) 

First of all, you CAN'T know Dilma was controlled by Lula.

7 hours ago, Hugo Oliveira said:

governed the country for 14 years without changing almost anything in the dysfunctional Brazilian infrastructure.

This is a LIE.

7 hours ago, Hugo Oliveira said:

One of the main sources of his popularity is the practice of compensatory public politics. Basically, he constructed huge propaganda based on low-quality social politics. 

Are you talking about Bolsa Família? The program that helped MILLIONS get out of extreme poverty and NOT DIE OF HUNGER?

You call this propaganda? Where the fuck do you live? The social programs the PT implemented was and ARE abstolutely necessary, MILLIONS of people would die of hunger without it. 

7 hours ago, Hugo Oliveira said:

He was in jail, condemned after being involved in multiple corruption scandals like many of his allies. 

Except he was inoccented, his process was NULED due to the extremely partial judge. Moro (the judge) put Lula in jail in order to avoid that Lula would won the elections of 2018, allowing Bolsonaro to win the Election, then MORO (the judge that put Lula in jail) BECAME MINISTER OF BOLSONARO.

This is absolutely scandalous.

Lula is, according to the Brazillian law, absolutely inocent. This means you can't call him "thief" or "ex-prisioner".

7 hours ago, Hugo Oliveira said:

He doesn't demonstrate any enthusiasm, greatness, or competence in regard to governing the country.

Another lie, he absolutely NAILED yesterday national interviews and you know that.

He speaks like a true leader, instilling hope and positivity on the people.

7 hours ago, Hugo Oliveira said:

Many of his electors today just don't want to have Bolsonaro again and Lula presents himself as salvation.

Well, he is clearly the better option.

7 hours ago, Vibes said:

Second round, blank.

You can't decide between Lula and Bolsonaro? Seriously?

Ciro has no chance at all (6% of voters intention).

7 hours ago, Vibes said:

At first glance, he seems like a nice guy. But he's corrupt to the bones. A master manipulator in my humble opinion.

Can you prove any of that?
 

Edited by Recursoinominado

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In a real democracy, I think 4 years are enough for a president in good faith, to have the opportunity to shine his ideas and provide his contribution. Ciro explicitly presents a model in which there will not be reelections. While Lula after governing for more than a decade still wants to go back to "his" chair again and again. It shows who is presenting highly democratic ideals and who has the hunger for power.

We have brilliant people who want the opportunity to be visionary leaders. But we are seeing the same candidates again for years. For years people here are voting for the "less evil" candidate to avoid STUPID people like Bolsonaro who just won because the country was destroyed by Lula's legacy. 

It is basic logic. If the country were going well, a jerk like Bolsonaro would never win. He just won by proposing to be the Christian military guy who would save us from the corruption we were drowned in. And now Lula wants to save us from him. That's a joke!

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Lula>>>>>> Ciro. Ciro is a authoritarian stupid guy, he just like Bolsonaro, but speaks in prettier way. I don't understand why people like Ciro and can't see what he truly is.

Edited by Tudo

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On 26/08/2022 at 2:43 PM, Vibes said:

 

@Leo Gura just search for Lula Mensalão and Lula Petrolão.

Lula is innocent, this was all plotted by the opposition with the help of the CIA. The US fears Brazil as a rival. The USA are our number one enemy.

Brazil can be even greater then the USA is, one day. We have better weather, the Amazon,  more rare and precious metals and etc

Edited by Tudo

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@Recursoinominado  @Tudo I agree with your takes.

Lula is way higher in the spiral compared to Ciro, who is ultimately selfish and full of resentment towards Lula's popularity as a hero of the poor people and can't even control his own shit during a simple interview. Integrity was never truly an issue for Lula - he is genuine and, frankly, quite a visionary considering what our country actually is. It is important to consider that Brazil's corporate media is controlled by five bourgeoisie families and was always biased against PT, Lula, and Dilma because of how they managed to improve social standards for middle and lower classes. Latin America's situation is very complex and it relates to other countries differently than what most people who live in more organized countries (the global north) know. For more about this, especially how Europe and the U.S. still exploit less advanced countries, I suggest reading Open Veins of Latin America by Eduardo Galeano.

The plan for Brazil since 2016's coup d'état against Dilma Rouseff: keep the country from being structurally independent, privatize everything and allow foreign capital (from the global north, especially the United States) to effectively control the country's natural resources (especially through Vale and an increasingly private Petrobras which is currently paying record dividends mostly for foreign investors), focus on commodities production at everything's expense (including our own industry, health, education etc) and let the ruling families tighten their control more and more, effectively consolidating the country as a modern colony even though it still brands itself a democracy. (big farmers, industry tycoons etc are all associated with the local army and U.S. elements that profit from keeping Brazil in a tight leash).

I suggest watching the documentary Amigo Secreto which details specifically how Lula was never engaged in Mensalão or Petrolão - this was already endemically a part of the current brazilian state. Our democracy is one of the most corrupt in the world, and Lula was the first president to actually allow investigations of corruption etc to come forth. Ironically enough, Lava Jato (the brazilian trap as Le Monde puts it), was of his own doing and ultimately how our bourgeoisie, along with the military and the U.S. got to interfere in 2018's elections, which resulted in Jair Bolsonaro and our current state of affairs.

Le Monde's Lava Jato article: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/archives/article/2022/03/11/lava-jato-the-brazilian-trap_5978421_113.html

Lava Jato and the United States: https://apublica.org/2020/07/o-fbi-e-a-lava-jato/

https://apublica.org/2020/07/quem-sao-os-agentes-do-fbi-que-atuaram-na-lava-jato/

Vaza Jato, and how basically everything against Lula and Dilma were simple lies which became mass social paranoia (antipetismo) because of our completely biased journalism: https://theintercept.com/2020/01/20/linha-do-tempo-vaza-jato/

Edited by Leo Palhano
typos

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@Leo Palhano I agree with you analysis of the events, 90%, but disagree with your comparison between Lula and Ciro.

I agree that Ciro is very resentfull of Lula, but i can easily see why that happened. Lula parades as a hero of the country's poor people, but in truth he just FHC with a beard. True national sovereignty comes from a country being able to produce what it needs and not being forced to buy it from others that will set outrageous prices for it.

Here is a graph of Brazil's industry representation to the GDP, : (Look at image)

Lula's government butchered our industry in favour of the agro-business, environmental destructive practices like strong extractivism (Vale for example) and banking. The numbers are there for anyone to see.

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Yes, Bolsa-família was great, but anyone who says Lula brought Structural changes (@Recursoinominado ) to the country is delusional, during his government most of our capacity to exist as an independent country dissipated. And that's one of the main reasons Ciro get's so angry when people act like Lula is a hero for our country.

Ciro is not by any means perfect, but he at least proposes to bring changes to our productive structure, something Lula didn't even attempt when he had an approval rating of 80%.

Lula thought if he played the game the elites wanted him to play, they would let him do it, begginers mistake, got sidesteped and is now going to very likely lose to Bolsonaro.

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Also, @Leo Palhano  What's your basis to say "Lula is way higher in the spiral compared to Ciro"??

To me it seems pretty clear our election is as follows:

Bolsonaro - Solid Red

Lua - Solid Blue

Ciro - blue/Orange

Unfortunatelly, despite @Hugo Oliveira's claims, there is no Green of any relevance in our system as of now, Dilma maybe had a little of it, and so did Haddad, and that's why none of them had real chances of bonding with the general poppulace. Lula is as popular as he is because he is as Blue as they come, and so is most of the country.

That's why loads of people who voted for Lula in the past ended up voting for Bolsonaro in 2018, he was the next closest thing spiral-wise, just one stage bellow.

arte05bra-111-indus-a8.jpg

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@Lews Therin thanks for your post. please, forgive me if this answer is too extensive.

15 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

but in truth he just FHC with a beard.

This is just preposterous. Fernando Henrique Cardoso (FHC) was a neoliberal president aligned with the bourgeoisie who became famous because he managed to control the horrible economy that we've inherited from 35 years of military dictatorship through the plano real, bringing basic economic stability to the country in the early 90's but that's about it.

Lula, who governed 2003-2011, while definitely guilty of not radicalizing enough through the social movements to bring longer lasting structural change to a neocolonial country mercilessly exploited by the global north, managed to radically improve the social standards of the middle and lower classes while avoiding conflict with our fascist agrobusiness, corrupt military (submissive to the USA) and brazilian bourgeoisie that's notoriously nostalgic for slavery or similar conditions.

15 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

Lula's government butchered our industry in favour of the agro-business, environmental destructive practices like strong extractivism (Vale for example) and banking.

I agree, with the exception of "butchered our industry". The industry thrived until 2015's economic crisis and plummeted since 2016's coup d'état. Regarding the rest, what choice did he really have at that time? In order to govern a country as corrupt as Brazil, he had to make concessions to aforementioned groups who control the country through this facade democracy. He only managed to uplift our poor because of said concessions and his achievements in education, health, water supply, sanitation etc were unheard of until he came about. Consider our country's continental proportions and its conditions before 2003.

15 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

The numbers are there for anyone to see.

Let's talk numbers, but first a small introduction.

The first term of Lula's government was marked by a continuity of the macroeconomic policy established by FHC. The field was initially conducted based on a tripod, which considered the fiscal goal imposed by our bourgeoisie, with the Fiscal Responsibility Law guiding states, municipalities and the Union to generate a primary surplus, prohibiting said entities from spending more than what is collected in the Budget. In addition to the fiscal target, targets were set for inflation and floating exchange rates.

From the election of Dilma to her second term (2011-2016), there is a political turmoil that completely altered and contaminated all economic indicators and, to a large extent, reflected the political rift that was created in her second term by reactionary forces (military, bourgeoisie and USA). This directly influenced all indexes, because there was basically a suspension of her powers to manage the economy (e.g. she was forced to pick right-wing economists for the economy ministry) and expectations were contaminated.

Throughout the time PT has governed Brazil, the party introduced a new form of government in the country, called “social developmentalism”, a counterpoint to the neoliberal policy adopted by Fernando Henrique Cardoso in previous years. Within this social development, the basic proposal was to develop the country and improve people's lives while strengthening the presence of the State to make it happen. The state was not only concerned with a economic developmental presence, but with inclusion. A more inclusive society than it was for all of the country's economic history. In this sense, the main point of this social developmentalism was the improvement of income distribution and that is why PT became such a huge target for our local reactionaries and foreign groups.

The unquestionable greatest legacy of the PT administration was the rise of classes promoted by these policies of the governments. Brazil is one of the champions of inequality in the world and in this period there was an improvement, as shown by the Gini index. As there was economic growth, even if moderate, it cannot be said that anyone lost out. There was a reduction and near elimination of poverty, which is now rampant since the COVID-19 pandemic and Paulo Guedes' economic policies (Bolsonaro's Minister for the Economy). From an economic point of view, there was an emergence of classes, higher incomes and better lives with unprecedented access to consumer goods.

Gini.png

The policy of valuing the minimum wage, with a real increase, that is, above inflation, ensured the growth of workers' income. The appreciation of the minimum wage ensured the growth of the income of the people at the base of the pyramid and raised the salary of this class, which received up to three minimum wages. There was a huge appreciation of the income level of these people and this was expanded upon with the formalization of work relations through the Constitution of Labor Laws (CLT), a formality that the majority of workers did not have until then. Now they have lost it again, thanks to 2016's coup, Michel Temer and Jair Bolsonaro.

40 million Brazilians rose in class and this is the single most important aspect of PT's management. It broke the cycle of reproduction of misery that existed since colonial Brazil. In the 13-year period of PT management, the minimum wage increased from R$240, registered in 2003, to R$888 in 2016.

Salário Mínimo.png

International reserves are yet another strong point of PT's management, which assumes the country with a cash position of US$38 billion. Reserves are a kind of savings that protect the economy by guaranteeing that the country will honor its commitments to national and foreign creditors, even in crisis situations. In this way, the resource is an instrument that can prevent risks of public debt going up.

The Lula government ends its first term with a balance of US$ 85.8 billion. Reserves by 2016 were valued at US$363.4 billion. It was not by chance that we were high in the international investment grade, that is, a country that honors its commitments. Then again, with the coup, Michel Temer and Bolsonaro, we've lost that and the media doesn't even talk about it.

Reservas Internacionais.png

The brazilian Gross Domestic Product (GDP) at the beginning of PT's mandate, in 2003, was 2.7%. The index gained strength in Lula's two terms, but it regressed under Dilma's administration because of the pressure of reactionary forces, and despite the peak of 7.6% in 2010, it returned to lower rates during the course of her government. At the end of the term, the lowest value for the period is recorded, a negative percentage of -3.8%.

In the first two years of Lula's second term, Brazil was at its best regarding GDP. We even became the world's sixth largest economy. In 2009 there is another international financial crisis, we have a drop in GDP and Brazil has its first negative rate since PT came to power. There is a free fall of GDP. We fell, just like the whole world fell. But our fall was not as desperate as in other countries. At that moment, Brazil was protected with US$ 206 billion in international reserves and that is why Lula said that the crisis was only a "small wave" (marolinha). Since 2016's coup, our economy never properly grew again as it is now completely dependent on commodities and burning our ecosystems as most are well aware.

PIB.png

The economic stability of the PT administration was maintained until 2010, when the incentive to credit facilitated access to money, with more availability of loan resources and, thus, there was a spike in inflation. To hold back inflation, the Central Bank raised interest rates and the government held back administered prices, such as electricity and fuel.

When Dilma starts lowering interest rates, this was received by the market as a signal that the government would not pay much attention to inflation. Fiscal policy and monetary policy were expansionary, with credit in abundance, our internal market thrived and the government spending increased. Then she lowered interest rates and inflation started to rise. When inflation started to rise, Dilma was forced to do the infamous fuel price control, urban tariffs, and energy readjustments. The government started to fight inflation by freezing prices and problems started arising into service companies and public utility goods. We had a number of changes in the ministry of economy, and finally it was once again controlled by neoliberals (Joaquim Levy and Nelson Barbosa), also Lava Jato began to do its thing. In Dilma's first term, the growth rate drops to 2.7%. Inflation took a “life of its own” and continued to rise until the coup.

Inflação.png

Social programs were created and gained strength over the 13 years of PT's government in order to eliminate misery, increase social inclusion and reduce inequality - the mains goals of the party. Education gained prominence with programs such as Student Financing (Fies), University for All Program (ProUni), Brasil Carinhoso, National Pact for Literacy in the Right Age (Pnaic), in addition to political action in the approval of important laws for the sector, such as the Teachers' Salary Floor and the National Education Plan.

The total public investment in education in relation to the GDP grew during the PT administration and was boosted by the law of the National Fund for Basic Education (Fundeb), approved in 2007. The value increased from 4.6% in 2003, to 6.2% in 2014. Investment per student in the period went from a level of R$2,213.07 in 2003 to R$6,203 in 2014. The approval of the Fundeb law was the first step towards increasing resources in education and towards a change in the trajectory, which was bad in the first term of Lula's government since he inherited a country in the obscurity of the middle ages regarding education, and, proportionally, practically repeated or was slightly below the investment made by FHC's government.

There were massive enrollments to universalize primary education. This is about non-white children, living on the outskirts of large cities, quilombolas, indigenous people or poor children with disabilities that needed special care. In other words, primary education had never been universalized before because Brazil was not able to advance to the point of universalizing the enrollment of this major segment of the population that lived in a situation of greater socioeconomic vulnerability considering how the country is structured regarding income concentration.

PT's educational policy in higher education was marked by the internalization of universities, which were no longer exclusive to capitals and large urban centers. In 13 years, the government, especially with Fernando Haddad as education minister, created 20 more federal public universities. From 2003 to 2016, the number of PhD professors in the federal universities increased by 189%. In 2003, 20,711 permanent professors in the higher teaching career had a doctorate. In 2016, that number stood at 59,658 until the coup. During this period, the number of masters and doctors trained in the country also increased beyond anything we had ever seen.

Educação 4-17.png

Educação PIB.png

All that being said, it is important to stress that Lula's approval rating as of 2011 was of an astounding 83%. His approval record has never been broken.

15 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

What's your basis to say "Lula is way higher in the spiral compared to Ciro"??

Basically his story, the way he treats people, the way he has always managed to do what seems impossible considering the insurmountable odds when trying to do good in a country like Brazil. Lula has many flaws like all of us, but you have to consider he was a poor uneducated metalworker who made it through sheer will. But most of all, what makes me say that is the way he exudes Love.

In my point of view, Lula was already working towards green since his first term. After his term, the coup, his unjust sentencing etc, I've noticed how he has successfully integrated a lot of yellow values. Notice how he engages with people, whoever they are, from a tier 2 perspective. He has studied a lot since his term ended, especially during his 580 days of unjust imprisonment. He has married again with the very smart and energetic Janja. You have to admit the man doesn't judge and talks to everyone who is willing, with the exception of pure fascists like Bolsonaro.

15 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

is now going to very likely lose to Bolsonaro.

I don't think so. Thankfully Bolsonaro has more than 54% rejection rate, an all-time record. If Lula does not win during the first round of elections, he will most likely do so at the second.

All in all, Brazil does need deep, structural change and maybe Lula isn't the one who will do it. But then again, I don't think anyone can do it within the paradigm of what the brazilian "Democratic" State of Law is and how it works as a facade system for the control of the bourgeoisie, agribusiness and the military. Lula is definitely our current best hope (with chances of actually winning the elections, unlike Ciro) for pacifying the country, stop starvation and eliminate fascism within our institutions.

Edited by Leo Palhano

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@Leo Palhano For the life of me i can't see Lula engaging with anyone from a "tier 2 perspective" he screams stage Blue louder than anyone i have ever seen. He is essentially the personification of stage Blue for that matter.

And yes, i do know all the numbers you quoted, and i think he had many good numbers in different areas, and was probably above the average brazilian president.

That said, a country is in many ways defined by it's productive structure, there is a reason marx would never say russia was ready for socialism/communism.

The mode of production of a country is what defines how far conscience can rise in said country. You will not see stage Orange flourish in a tribal environment, much less stage green or yellow. The same can be said for tier 2 in a feudalistic society.

Don't get me wrong, having black people go to uni as much as white people is great, but it doesn't mean nearly as much as it seems if both of them are going to work as uber drivers after getting their engineering degree.

And During Lula's government it wasn't that our productive matrix didn't advance, it objectively regressed, and regressed a lot.

That means that even if there are more people with enough study to manifest higher levels of consciousness, they won't manifest it because the environment is not conductive for it.

Industry is the basis for stages Orange and higher to flourish, when Lula sacrificed our industry to get support from the financial and extractivist sectors, our society lost the capcity to shine in ways that had taken decades to emerge, and i won't even talk about the hit to our sovereignty in this post.

Without Industry there is no room for growth, that's why our only hope would be to have a president that is 100% bought in to the idea of developing the national industry. because withou that solid base, stage blue will never be able to mature and give rise to the higher emerging aspects of humanity.

I think Ciro is by far the best choice we have, do i think he has a chance? hell no, maybe not even if both Bolsonaro and Lula died, but he certainly has my vote on the first round.

And let's hope you are right and Lula wins in the end, i'm not very optimistic as of right now.

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On 9/2/2022 at 5:12 PM, Lews Therin said:

For the life of me i can't see Lula engaging with anyone from a "tier 2 perspective" he screams stage Blue louder than anyone i have ever seen. He is essentially the personification of stage Blue for that matter.

I understand this is a biased view, based upon overindulgence and trust in brazilian journalism which, again, is controlled by five bourgeoisie families. He isn't perfect, as no one is, but he definitely has his heart in the right place, unlike all other candidates with the exception of Sofia Manzano and Leonardo Péricles.

On 9/2/2022 at 5:12 PM, Lews Therin said:

was probably above the average brazilian president.

It is undeniable that he was the most successful brazilian leader in history for 99% of the population, even though some might not acknowledge it because of the reactionary propaganda machine which distorts history, data and facts in order to brainwash. Since the ascension of lawfare (lava jato), this has been institutionalized.

On 9/2/2022 at 5:12 PM, Lews Therin said:

Don't get me wrong, having black people go to uni as much as white people is great, but it doesn't mean nearly as much as it seems if both of them are going to work as uber drivers after getting their engineering degree.

This is yet another result of 2016's coup d'etat. We had better jobs all around, but our 1% was not enjoying the rise of 40 million brazilians, hence the need to "bomb" the country back to the stone age by passing reactionary legislation since the Temer era, especially through the labor and pension reforms, which enabled Uber, Ifood etc to basically enslave our poor and other companies to hire specialized professionals through labor outsourcing, circumventing our basic labor laws (CLT), effectively eliminating basic labor rights and the guarantee of retirement.

On 9/2/2022 at 5:12 PM, Lews Therin said:

And During Lula's government it wasn't that our productive matrix didn't advance, it objectively regressed, and regressed a lot.

Not Lula's or PT's fault, but our bourgeoisie, military and USA's. Again, no President, including Ciro if he ever was, has the power to go against our status quo. And the status quo wants Brazil as a big, colonial farm which poses no threat, technologically and industrially, to the global north. The status quo wants a passive middle and lower class so that they can keep secretly ruling and indulging their stolen riches through generations in the second most unequal country of the world. Lula tried to do the best he could within the limits of 1988's Constitution and how our politics really work.

On 9/2/2022 at 5:12 PM, Lews Therin said:

Without Industry there is no room for growth, that's why our only hope would be to have a president that is 100% bought in to the idea of developing the national industry. because withou that solid base, stage blue will never be able to mature and give rise to the higher emerging aspects of humanity.

This will never truly happen until we emancipate ourselves from those who control the country (bourgeousie and military) and US' influence. It doesn't really matter which president gets elected in this regard.

On 9/2/2022 at 5:12 PM, Lews Therin said:

I think Ciro is by far the best choice we have, do i think he has a chance? hell no, maybe not even if both Bolsonaro and Lula died, but he certainly has my vote on the first round.

Look, I get why you are voting in Ciro. I understand where you're at. But right now, considering the numbers of voters' intentions and the complexity of the current elections because of Bolsonaro's fascism and power over the institutions, if you're not voting for Lula in the first round, you're effectively helping Bolsonaro to have a chance in the second round. The so called "third way" (not Bolsonaro, not Lula) is only helping Bolsonaro to get a chance to bribe his way, with the power of the institutions he already control, to victory in a second round - even though I still think it is unlikely he will be successful.

Notice how Ciro's campaign focuses more on attacking Lula instead of Bolsonaro, including by shamelessly utilizing lies and media sensationalism already overcome and denied after the annulment of the legal processes against Lula arising from Lava Jato and other lawfare mechanisms. Ciro, Simone Tebet etc are effectively enabling Bolsonaro's second wind by not removing their candidacies at this point, which is understandable by Tebet's standard (she was behind 85% of Bolsonaro's proposals in the Senate and is one of the major political representatives of the agribusiness) but not by Ciro's. That is why he is being seen as a huge disappointment by all progressive forces in Brazil right now and being called a traitor, Bolsonaro's lapdog etc.

Edited by Leo Palhano

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@Leo Palhano

"I understand this is a biased view, based upon overindulgence and trust in brazilian journalism which, again, is controlled by five bourgeoisie families" - This is the vibe i get from watching uncut interviews of him, nothing to do with media manipulation

"It is undeniable that he was the most successful brazilian leader in history for 99% of the population" - Not even close to Getúlio Vargas. The very fact that the coup managed to reverse most of what he did shows that. Neolibs are to this day trying to undo the works GV did 70 years ago.

"This is yet another result of 2016's coup d'etat."  - Not true, it was a proccess that acceleretated due to the coup, but that was in progress waaaay before that with the loss of industrial capacity. If the industry shrinks, no labour laws in the world can keep a healthy level of employment.

"Not Lula's or PT's fault, but our bourgeoisie, military and USA's. Again, no President, including Ciro if he ever was, has the power to go against our status quo. And the status quo wants Brazil as a big, colonial farm which poses no threat, technologically and industrially, to the global north. The status quo wants a passive middle and lower class so that they can keep secretly ruling and indulging their stolen riches through generations in the second most unequal country of the world. Lula tried to do the best he could within the limits of 1988's Constitution and how our politics really work."  - While i agree that some powerfull sector of our economy try tu push that, i find it very weird to say Lula has no fault when he didn't make ANY effort to push back on that and instead allied himself with those very sectors that seek to loot the country.

"But right now, considering the numbers of voters' intentions and the complexity of the current elections because of Bolsonaro's fascism and power over the institutions, if you're not voting for Lula in the first round, you're effectively helping Bolsonaro to have a chance in the second round." - If the only way of keeping Bolsonaro away from the power is sacrificing my integrity, then perhaps he really was chosen by the universe for some weird reason. Lula's government is a regressive government as well, not to the same extent as bolsonaro, but he is also giving up on our sovereignty in exchange for having cheap products in our markets for a temporary ammount of time.

All in all my view is this. Lula wants the poor to be able to buy stuff, but he is either incapable of seeing or simply does not care that as long as we have to buy those things from foreigners, those conquests will never be secure and these other countries will be able to make us beg and crawl for it whenever they want. He had a approval raiting as high as any leader could hope to have and did nothing to build an industry that ccould give actual security to those in need.

The bottom line is that anyone who isn't Bolsonaro will buy us some time relative to how fast our country's collapse would be with him on power. That said, they both propose the same path, the path of dependency, a path that leads only to enslavement or collapse. Who wins, Lula or Bolsonaro, is completely irrelevant if a new project doesn't start gaining momentum for the long term.

Therefore, giving support and attention to anyone who talks about that (only candidate who does is Ciro), is the only course of action that has any hope of keeping our people and our forests in any semblance of healthyness till capitalism ends.

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Ciro would be a great Minister for Lula but Ciro is a awful leader, specially to lead the country.

His resentment, his lack of wisdom, inflexibility, arrogance, excessive pride, disonest discourse etc makes him a bad choice even if there was no Bolsonaro, today, i would vote for Lula if the choice was between him and Ciro.

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@Recursoinominado resentment, inflexibility and excessive pride i can agre on, but lack of wisdom seems overreaching and dishonest discourse is more something that could be said about PT acting all lefty and then siding with the banks than anything that could be ever said about Ciro

the bottom line is, is it better to have someone with a plan, but questionable capacity to execute said plan, or someone has shown to have sway over th system, but has no plan and has consistently shown to have no intention of having a plan at all?

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7 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

PT acting all lefty and then siding with the banks

Particularly, i am way more "left" then Lula and part of the PT, he is, at best, center-left and this is clear for a very long time now for the left.

BUT, it is what it is. Today i can see that this is the only way possible (until now) of having a semi-leftist government in Brazil.

Even with this centrist left, with timid reforms and earned rights for the poor and labor class, we had a VIOLENT reactionary from the rest of the country, we had Dilma's coup, we had Temer which used his brief power to erase decades of progressive advancements, we had Lula's prision, we had the rise of the alt-right etc.

Brazil isn't ready for true leftist ideas and Lula is the best we had and have.

8 hours ago, Lews Therin said:

the bottom line is, is it better to have someone with a plan, but questionable capacity to execute said plan, or someone has shown to have sway over th system, but has no plan and has consistently shown to have no intention of having a plan at all?

Lula has his succesful government to back him up.

Ciro's plan will NEVER be work if he isn't capable of working with other people and make alliances (proven by his failed campain).

Lula all the way right now.

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