Pick-up is a trap.

[_Archangel_]

@mr_engineer Survival is not just having a roof over your head. What about her need to feel strong emotions, be led and dominated, stimulated mentally and sexually, the thrill of being with a player? How is she going to get that from a needy boring ass nice guy?

[mr_engineer]

@_Archangel_ Here are my questions - 

• How am I supposed to make someone feel a certain way, without manipulating them? Ultimately, you are the source of all of your feelings and emotions, the causes of them are inside of you. So, the idea is to manipulate their conditioning relative to love, right? 
• What if the 'stimulation'-part, is just another rat-race? The issue with this is that the relationship will have a honeymoon-phase after which both sides will get bored of each other and then the problems will begin. And someone will cheat, cuz there are more options. Especially online. And, if you're constantly running after something else, you will never be present with what you have. How will you access 'love', then?! 

[something_else]

Oh my fucking god, please just go and get some experience with girls. You're overthinking this. It's not that deep.

Build up some social value, get lots of exposure, see what's out there, and you will find love. You will learn what to do and what not to do in relationships by having relationships. Not by sitting in your bedroom thinking about relationships.

[NoSelfSelf]

@mr_engineer Who told you you need to manipulate? Find things in you that are authentic for example you wanna make her laugh then see what type of humor you like then pick a line you gonna say and throw it when its a good timing wheres manipulation in this? Manipulation is when you pedestalize women and try be something you are not to get laid ..

[mr_engineer]

25 minutes ago, something_else said:

Oh my fucking god, please just go and get some experience with girls. You're overthinking this. It's not that deep.

Build up some social value, get lots of exposure, see what's out there, and you will find love. You will learn what to do and what not to do in relationships by having relationships. Not by sitting in your bedroom thinking about relationships.

PROVE IT!! 

99% of people don't have loving relationships or they don't know what 'love' is. Why is that? They're doing exactly this. 

Do you know why most parents have kids?! Because they have unmet emotional-needs from their adult relationships. Because they didn't figure this out. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by mr_engineer

[_Archangel_]

@mr_engineer so:
1- You are making the error of thinking pick up is not ethical from God's perspective.
If you want to make spiritual, look at it from this perspective: you do pick-up to gain abilities, traits and remove mental hindrances that will make you more authentic, centered, positive, and from this newly aquired place, then be really able to truly give and recieve LOVE.

 if for manipulation you mean - Behave in a certain way with poeple so that it will cause them to act in certain way - then, in every relationship you use some degree of manipulation (parents, lovers, friends etc.) 

Now, i understand you worrings, as some viscious poeple, including the majority of PUA's, don't hesitate to make poeple suffer in order to get what they want. But there is also conscientious and sustainable ways to use Pick-up techniques so that every one wins.

So where should we stop then?
The aswer is, as any rule on human decency would suggest, do not use your ability to hurt poeple psichologically and phisically. This requires us to try to be always in check with the emotional state of the (potential) partner.



2- keep in mind that most realtions fails anyway. You should be in relatioship to have a good time, experience intimacy, complity, to gain insight into your self and others and possibly, love. But even the greatest of love can end.

This to say that pick up and relatioship in general are a way to meet you bodily and psichological needs.
So don't make the error of searching spiritual completeness and satisfactoriness into another human being.
Even though is safe to say that the dating game can help in the progress, the ultimate spiritual work must be done alone, indipendently of all the rest.
 

Edited August 16, 2022 by _Archangel_

[mr_engineer]

16 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@mr_engineer Who told you you need to manipulate? Find things in you that are authentic for example you wanna make her laugh then see what type of humor you like then pick a line you gonna say and throw it when its a good timing wheres manipulation in this? Manipulation is when you pedestalize women and try be something you are not to get laid ..

Can humor keep a relationship together? Or do you need a deeper hook-point than humor? Cuz there is a lot of competition on this front too. 

[NoSelfSelf]

@mr_engineer There is no competition dude ? theres is only one of your kind..

I just gave you an example humor is one thing it could be anything how you gonna move her,how you gonna make her think, how you gonna make her blush ,how you gonna turn her on, how you gonna make her feel passionate ,you create based upon what makes you passionate excited then you throw it creating your own game and how you gonna move...

Theres infinite layers of your own  creation that you create and then use it based upon situation and what you gonna do to her how you gonna show her who you are etc. Thats Game no manipulation needed!

 

Wheres competition when you create an experience an evening full of your own mind fun where will she find that?

[something_else]

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

PROVE IT!! 

99% of people don't have loving relationships or they don't know what 'love' is. Why is that? They're doing exactly this. 

Do you know why most parents have kids?! Because they have unmet emotional-needs from their adult relationships. Because they didn't figure this out. 

I can also ask you to prove that your approach is better. How many relationships have you been in using your approach? How many girls would you say you have built a connection beyond friendship with in your life?

I suspect your response will be "it's a game of quality not quantity" however the truth is that the best way to find a partner you connect deeply with and love is to experience a decent variety of different partners so you know exactly what you want from a loving relationship.

Edited August 16, 2022 by something_else

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

2 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

How am I supposed to make someone feel a certain way, without manipulating them? Ultimately, you are the source of all of your feelings and emotions, the causes of them are inside of you. So, the idea is to manipulate their conditioning relative to love, right? 

In a way, everything is manipulation. Just by typing these words and by having you read them, I'm manipulating your stream of thoughts. It's a subtle form of manipulation and not the one you're talking about, which is manipulation in an exploitative sense, but I think that it needs to brought up, because where exactly do we draw the line between positive manipulation (which would be something like motivating a kid that is feeling discouraged by a task) and negative manipulation (con-artistry)? Is there even a clear line, or is it more of a spectrum? Could there be a "healthy" level of manipulation which a woman might actually like?

I don't think there are clear answers to these questions. There is a lot of nuance and subtlety in the topic of manipulation. What women like has to be assessed on a person to person basis. There are general trends we can observe as to what women like, but exceptions make the rule. So you're right in saying that pick-up is a trap, because you can get stuck in this one world view, but I don't think that that discredits pick-up as a self-improvement field either.

Generally, if you're a conscious person, I think that you could perform pick-up in a conscious way. The problem is that most people who do pick-up aren't very conscious, thus it could have a bad look to conscious people. But if you get deeper into it, you realize that there is more to it than just sex. It can literally be a journey of facing your fears and transcending your current self. It can also be a trap of toxicity.

So I'm not sure if "manipulation" is the problem. I think it's about how conscious the manipulator is, because if you're not very conscious you will overlook how deep your manipulations go. If you're aware of it you can at least use your manipulations to spread love and consciousness and touch people in a meaningful way.

[mr_engineer]

16 minutes ago, something_else said:

I can also ask you to prove that your approach is better. How many relationships have you been in using your approach? How many girls would you say you have built a connection beyond friendship with in your life?

I suspect your response will be "it's a game of quality not quantity" however the truth is that the best way to find a partner you connect deeply with and love is to experience a decent variety of different partners so you know exactly what you want from a loving relationship.

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying. And I'm asking you to explain them. 

For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives. They've made this work and this is what they said. And this is where I want to go with it. 

[mr_engineer]

@_Archangel_ @DefinitelyNotARobot Manipulation is not an absolute evil by any means. 

However, when it comes to manipulating someone's ideas of 'love', this is where I draw the line. This I find to be very unethical and predatory relative to someone's emotional vulnerabilities. 

And, it dooms you to loneliness too, because you're going to be alone in the relationship. They are not going to be with you, they're going to be manipulated by you. 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

However, when it comes to manipulating someone's ideas of 'love', this is where I draw the line. This I find to be very unethical and predatory relative to someone's emotional vulnerabilities. 

Aren't you, in a way, doing just that by saying that pick-up goes against love?

Edited August 16, 2022 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[mr_engineer]

15 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Aren't you, in a way, doing just that by saying that pick-up goes against love?

I don't see how I'm doing that. Enlighten me. 

[something_else]

6 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying. And I'm asking you to explain them. 

For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives. They've made this work and this is what they said. And this is where I want to go with it. 

What counterexamples do you have for what I'm saying? And what proof do you have from other people's lives?

From what I gather your approach is kind of just "sit around and think about what I want in a relationship and then prey the perfect girl magically appears in front of me and that I can attract her when she does" which I just cannot ever see being an effective approach.

My approach is pretty much "don't get stuck in theory, rely on your heart, feelings and instincts, have fun, get lots of exposure to different types of girls, do things that scare you and push yourself" and I'm struggling to think of a counterexample of that approach. It's literally just the basic principles of mastery applied to relationships. Or healthy pickup really.

 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@mr_engineer By pushing for your idea of love and dismissing pick-up as a valid method to find love. That to me sounds like a confined form of love, because it's limited to one side of the coin. Again I'm not talking about the most extreme forms of manipulation, aka exploitation, but about a very subtle form of manipulation. That was what I meant by you, having to become aware of the subtlest of your manipulations. You're still trying to manipulate other peoples ideas of love into one that you can agree with. So am I btw. I'm not judging your for it, I'm just pointing out what I see. If you don't agree with my observation that's fine.

Edited August 16, 2022 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[mr_engineer]

23 minutes ago, something_else said:

From what I gather your approach is kind of just "sit around and think about what I want in a relationship and then prey the perfect girl magically appears in front of me and that I can attract her when she does" which I just cannot ever see being an effective approach.

This is a strawman. 

23 minutes ago, something_else said:

My approach is pretty much "don't get stuck in theory, rely on your heart, feelings and instincts, have fun, get lots of exposure to different types of girls, do things that scare you and push yourself" and I'm struggling to think of a counterexample of that approach. It's literally just the basic principles of mastery applied to relationships. Or healthy pickup really.

That's vague. It's not concrete enough for me. I need something more concrete than that. 

I'm talking about problematic patterns that come up when hooking women. Practically. I say this in the OP. 

16 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

@mr_engineer By pushing for your idea of love and dismissing pick-up as a valid method to find love. That to me sounds like a confined form of love, because it's limited to one side of the coin. Again I'm not talking about the most extreme forms of manipulation, aka exploitation, but about a very subtle form of manipulation. That was what I meant by you, having to become aware of the subtlest of your manipulations. You're still trying to manipulate other peoples ideas of love into one that you can agree with. So am I btw. I'm not judging your for it, I'm just pointing out what I see. If you don't agree with it that's fine.

You can disagree all you want with my idea of 'love'. Someone asked me what my idea of 'love' is and I answered to them. That's my bias and what I want. It's also an option that people tap into for real. 

Here's the thing - in unconscious society, men tend to have a male-oriented idea of 'love' whereas women tend to have a more female-oriented idea of 'love'. It's self-biased. My problem with pick-up is that PUAs take the attitude of 'Let's agree to disagree on what 'love' is. I give you what you want, which is your idea of 'love' and you give me what I want, which is my idea of 'love'. (which is sex, really)'. And I don't see this as sustainable long-term, cuz sooner or later, conflict will break out. And the unconsciousness on either side can be problematic. (This explains a lot of 'female drama' in relationships lol)

Now, because I am a man, I know what to do about the male side of it. That's what I'm sharing with you here. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Applegarden8]

2 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

PROVE IT!! 

99% of people don't have loving relationships or they don't know what 'love' is. Why is that? They're doing exactly this. 

Do you know why most parents have kids?! Because they have unmet emotional-needs from their adult relationships. Because they didn't figure this out. 

Will this discussion help you in what you aim for? If not, whats the point of it?

[mr_engineer]

7 minutes ago, Applegarden8 said:

Will this discussion help you in what you aim for? If not, whats the point of it?

I wanted to see whether this forum knew this about pick-up or not. And what your objections would be. 

And, do keep in mind that pick-up is probably the most mainstream male dating-strategy right now. Especially for young guys. Older men have more money and status that they can leverage. So, in my opinion, it's a pretty important discussion. 

I needed to know whether I should do this seriously or not and if I do, what am I getting myself into. 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@mr_engineer And you're not wrong, I just don't like that you state that pick-up can't lead to love in a matter of fact way. My point is that there are different forms of love based on different needs and expectations. Different people, who're at different stages of development, seek different things. Some women want a player, some want a prince on a white horse, some want a guy who'll dominate them, some want a guy that's submissive, etc. Every form is limited, some more than others, but that's the nature of conditional love. Pick-up is limited, your approach is limited, so is mine.

It's a deeper love to appreciate all of the different interpretations of love and to see the whole image. This kind of deeper love is needed to pull people out of toxicity. So yeah it's not sustainable in the long-term, but there are no short term solutions. The only solution is to fall in love with those differences and to accept people as they are. The only reason people end up in redpill and incel states of mind is because, at some point, they were rejected. Telling them that they can't find love through their approach is exactly what got them into that mess. That's why so man young and insecure guys listen to someone like Andrew Tate, because he speaks to that part of them that was rejected. It's real pain and hardship that fuels this mindset. Eventually, as humanity progresses in consciousness, these ideas will become irrelevant. They're only relevant because they're partially valid and actually help some men lead better lives. I'm not saying that's how it should be, but just that that's the environment we live in.