How do you care about something without forming an identity around it?

[BlueOak]

I have a problem where I begin to care or get invested in something, or a relationship (of any kind), and form an identity based on that job, hobby, relationship, career or even country. If I pull back from the identity I find myself being ambivalent about the subject, and trying to rid myself of its association. One solution is a macro identity around several subjects, which gives me some distance, but that eventually will be questioned or exposed as flawed, as all identities eventually are.

I struggle to redefine the identity when its threatened, or move away from it and abandon the subject entirely. This is either still from a pattern of abuse I haven't resolved, and coping mechanisms which have arisen, or natural done by caring about something. I've never asked any of you if you attach identities to things in this way, and then feel they need defending or boundaries reinforcing when they are threatened.

I feel this is a huge green spot that's at the root of many arguments I have, seek out, or am attracted to.

[LfcCharlie4]

To be honest, a lot of spiritual & non-dual folks may shit on therapy & traditional psychology but I think near enough all of us could benefit from some form of it. 

You mentioned abuse & coping mechanisms. sounds like you need a good old therapist. 

As much as the Neo-Advaitans might tell you there's nobody there, if the trauma / feelings still arise around certain issues, there is literally no downside to getting it looked into and hopefully resolved. 

Forgetting you're still a human being is one of the main reasons you see all these Gurus developing crazy cults or having sex / abuse scandals. 

 

[BlueOak]

12 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

To be honest, a lot of spiritual & non-dual folks may shit on therapy & traditional psychology but I think near enough all of us could benefit from some form of it. 

You mentioned abuse & coping mechanisms. sounds like you need a good old therapist. 

As much as the Neo-Advaitans might tell you there's nobody there, if the trauma / feelings still arise around certain issues, there is literally no downside to getting it looked into and hopefully resolved. 

Forgetting you're still a human being is one of the main reasons you see all these Gurus developing crazy cults or having sex / abuse scandals. 

 

Absolutely.  I think it depends on the therapist, but most people benefit at the least from having an attentive but completely neutral voice in the room to speak to. Sadly they are all miles out of my price range :D, I am broke and living on the poverty line. Its the old saying many of those who need therapy can't afford it, but they need it to hold down a decent job to be able to afford it. 

As an aside, not being able to afford help is part of why society is slow to change and stagnated, 'people never change' to me translates to, its much easier to change if most people around you are already at a point, and collectively changing, rather than doing so solo.

So I do self-analysis like this, and try to find common patterns I see and adjust them, either consciously by choice, or unconsciously by repetition to something better. Apart from feeling energy, I lack all wider spiritual perspectives, I know all life is spiritual and speaking to me every waking moment, but I don't even recall 99.9% of my dreams now, my spiritual connections are shot, so this forum can afford a wider perspective I lack.

I really want to be able to be invested in the next job I try to do for example, without feeling attached to the identity of that job, or some larger identity that's associated with it. Maybe that is impossible and I want to both have my cake and eat it.

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Judy2 said:

True, but wouldn't it be amazing if you could be one of the brave ones who go first? Someone gotta do it after all.

The moment you commit to working on your own happiness and healing, you're also helping every being around you, directly or indirectly.

 

I used to believe so and that was part of my identity. I now believe this only happens when other people are already open to changing and changing too. It's a collective effort to do anything meaningful and it only lasts if the collective is already becoming that which you change into.

[BlueOak]

When I woke up I realised I needed to add something to this, because its not totally out of our control:

"Most People’s Lives are a Direct Reflection of the Expectations of Their Peer Group." Tony Robbins

Something I agree with. If you make your peer group all people (or a large group you interact with), because we are all people, you generally are moved back to a center point over time. I understand some spiritual people say we shift realities, but for me if we do they are within a certain band of experience. This is another way of describing the quote above.

The other day I removed myself from all political discussions online, all social discussions, all talks on the war, all spiritual groups, even most reaction channels i'd been watching to leave barebones few technical groups. I had resolved to leave this forum too, but I wanted to make my last posts something more positive or at least constructive.

To bring this full circle this is what I mean about identities interfering with life, and yet I haven't been able to invest time in something, without developing a care for that thing, and an identity soon to follow.

Edited August 5, 2022 by BlueOak

[Gesundheit2]

You can try to abstract away from the thing itself by rooting for certain values instead of the outcome that you want. Fundamentally, what needs to happen is that you should focus your attention on the principles, not the results. That way you will not be threatened directly at least. Ideally, identity should be based in higher values than your self.

Also, detachment of outcome while moving towards it is possible. Paradox does not mean impossibility, though it might make it more challenging to achieve. This is easier when you have higher values.

[BlueOak]

7 hours ago, Judy2 said:

I would say that this is pretty natural though, as long as you don't start to obsess over it. You can still establish an underlying sense of self-sufficiency for yourself.

Appreciate the thoughts thank you. Of it being natural and unavoidable to an extent. It gives me another understanding of why more spiritual people do detach themselves or take a step back, I think it extends the length of time you can be in a role or identity. I had a couple of weeks of just near constant arguments from different directions, around identity to the point I needed a break and a pep talk   

7 hours ago, Judy2 said:

So what are you gonna do about your path when you feel like no one wants to join you?? wait and do nothing?

Why would I do something that nobody wanted? That would only be for me. As far as I have ever been able to tell I never had a live path defined in that way. To learn to deal with things like uncertainty, humility, powerlessness, abuse etc. I've always been the person that argued anyway, that saw something was more effective, or more helpful, might heal someone, and just done it, despite the arguments or the resistance.

I think that is selfish, no matter if it helps someone. I can't just be an individual making choices about what's best or how best to solve a problem. If people want to experience something different who am I to say otherwise, I've been too singleminded and brash in this lifetime.
 

7 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You can try to abstract away from the thing itself by rooting for certain values instead of the outcome that you want. Fundamentally, what needs to happen is that you should focus your attention on the principles, not the results. That way you will not be threatened directly at least. Ideally, identity should be based in higher values than your self.

Also, detachment of outcome while moving towards it is possible. Paradox does not mean impossibility, though it might make it more challenging to achieve. This is easier when you have higher values.

I agree this a better way of looking at it. I do obsess with the results still, of all things. Anything you could name, from the smallest inconsequential thing you'd laugh at, to the biggest life-defining thing.

For values, if I question your values, doesn't that question you in the same way? Aren't identities just sets of values and beliefs?  Values shift, morality shifts, even focus shifts subtly so things become less important, or not valued in the same way, even hated or despised over time. 

Appreciate the words thank you all.

[BlueOak]

4 hours ago, Judy2 said:

Yes identity can be incredibly confusing. I hope you're doing better now:)

I'm not quite sure whether we're talking about the same thing here.

My stance was related to personal growth in general, rather than specific projects.

But this might be a bit off topic anyway. It's just about whether you personally wanna stagnate or evolve, despite external resistance and obstacles. It's easy to find excuses for why you can't, and so i thought it would be useful to point out that you absolutely can pursue your personal goals and the things you feel called to do, even if others are not ready for it yet.

Thank you . Aside from minor things which appeared everywhere, there was an ongoing medical condition in the family that someone brought up a specific identity dispute in the middle of, which infuriated me because it had the potential to block the care someone else in the family needed, that was about one of three large arguments in a week on similar subjects. All of them highlighting identity. 

Ultimately I have to learn that even if I love someone, repetition of a viewpoint isn't enough to convince a person of solutions to even critical health needs. It worked out by luck, but it was one more reminder that hitting my head against walls gets nowhere.

I wouldn't ever use ready as a term, because that means I think my perspective ahead of someone else. Every perspective is happening at the same time, and if society is going one way in a large group, why would I keep talking or doing  things the majority of it doesn't want to see/hear. I am no better than anyone else and my perspective isn't more correct than anyone else's. It's not an oh woe is me post, it's an acknowledgment that the majority are where the majority want to be, and nothing changes or stays changed without their doing so. Spiritual people used to say it was going against or with the stream, I used to ignore that saying but I can't anymore because I can't unsee the truth of my lifetime.

Stagnation is impossible because as the collective changes we do to. Even if we are dragged along. The only choice I see is to go with it willingly or not.  

[Sugarcoat]

I relate very very very deeply to your post. From a young age I’ve sensed how there is a sense of self involved in pretty much anything I do, and in order for myself to keep being interested in let’s say a subject, I have to be interested in the self image it can help me attain. 
 

it’s as if one senses how there is an agenda behind anything one does. It’s not bad, just pure noticing. This “self awareness “ is not by force, it comes naturally. 

I think everyone is fundamentally the same psychologically. The difference is some of us seem to be more sensitive to the mechanism of the identity and are more detached from it and aware of it.

what we all want deep down is detachment I believe. As any identity I’ve noticed requires a certain mental effort to maintain. It’s exhausting, and different people seem to be sensitive to this to different degrees.

the identity is sneaky, it hides in everything. It’s involved in everything. 

 

[Razard86]

On 8/4/2022 at 0:50 PM, BlueOak said:

I have a problem where I begin to care or get invested in something, or a relationship (of any kind), and form an identity based on that job, hobby, relationship, career or even country. If I pull back from the identity I find myself being ambivalent about the subject, and trying to rid myself of its association. One solution is a macro identity around several subjects, which gives me some distance, but that eventually will be questioned or exposed as flawed, as all identities eventually are.

I struggle to redefine the identity when its threatened, or move away from it and abandon the subject entirely. This is either still from a pattern of abuse I haven't resolved, and coping mechanisms which have arisen, or natural done by caring about something. I've never asked any of you if you attach identities to things in this way, and then feel they need defending or boundaries reinforcing when they are threatened.

I feel this is a huge green spot that's at the root of many arguments I have, seek out, or am attracted to.

Love is identity, why do you think that is a problem? Its not. If you form an identity around it great!!! The path to dropping all attachment is a process!! I'm sure you heard of burning through karma right? The attachment drops when you are done with it. All love comes from us, we mistakenly think the thing we are loving is the source of our love when we fall in love with it. Nothing wrong with this. But eventually it falls away because we realize it was never the thing we wanted, it was us, our love we wanted. 

But its a process, so enjoy the process!!! Nothing is wrong, everything is fine!!!

Edited August 6, 2022 by Razard86

[BlueOak]

@Sugarcoat

Thank you that was reassuring that I wasn't the only one feeling this way. I've always felt like this. I've always ended up stepping out of the role I was in eventually and realising the attachment to it was causing the issues I was facing.

Identity does creep into everything yes and then it takes effort to then maintain, which can often interfere with the thing we were trying to do in the first place :D.

@Judy2

I appreciate your thoughts, encouragement and empathy  I think I need a long break from identity-based conflicts.

@Razard86

For me Karma means experience, and experience generates more experience/karma. So we go on infinitely while attached to identity.

It's a problem when the identity itself is why you can't get something done. It divides us up and puts boundaries in the way, all the time, in everyone.

Let's do a few Examples

Example One:

You want to run a great business, you do so for a number of years. Someone attacks your identity of being a great business owner who offers value, you feel the need to defend it. That is a complete and utter waste of energy most of the time, unless it's going to publicly ruin your reputation, but you still feel compelled to do it back and forth in email chains, even giving refunds and extra credit, because you've taken on that identity and it hurts when it's damaged.

This could happen at a job, and now you feel what you've built there over time is threatened, so you feel threatened, emotions run. I left my last job because I really cared about it lol, I formed an identity around being hard-working, reliable, and pleasant. When I was blindsided by someone above me I didn't see a way of working with them. I felt I was almost put on trial because she felt her own identity threatened, and she was anxious about it, I couldn't work for someone who felt anxious in their own role/identity, because working for her made me the same.

A step further, you might be running a great service, but someone else hears this about this attack on your identity, and so doesn't do business with you. You lose a client. All over nothing. Maybe because you were 'not born from that city' or some other superfluous identity-based argument or reasoning.

My Own Example Two:

I used to work in alternative health and therapies for about 8 years, and my entire purpose there was to put people in touch with the right specialist or product they needed.  We had about 6 regular therapists and about 20 total, so a broad spectrum. Often, it was when people couldn't get the results they wanted with the doctor, because GP general practitioner doctors here don't use things like nutrition/diet or ongoing physical therapy all that often to heal a problem.

So I developed an identity around being an alternative health provider and diagnosing initial symptoms.

My mother's health has been getting a lot worse recently. She's lost a lot of weight, appetite, and has a bad taste in her mouth, blocked throat, with stomach problems.

I don't remember half of what I knew then, but offered what I could, and then kept insisting she see a specialist as soon as possible. We have specialists on the NHS here, that are qualified medical professionals in a specialized field. So it's not an alternative, but it is a step up from a GP's level of knowledge. For me it's very useful when the regular the GP, general practitioner, we see at first hasn't the expertize to diagonse you.

Another member of the family stepped in and said what do I know, how often do I use the NHS. I do/will use the NHS when I can't diagnose myself and have always found specialists beneficial. However this put an identity barrier that I had to then argue about first in the way of getting my mother the specialist care she needed, and turned her off the idea. Thankfully eventually the doctor recommended she see a specialist anyway, so by luck she got there as things got more serious.

But this stuff happens all the time, in business, sports, politics, etc, people get an identity for one thing ,then it blocks them from even doing something else, or giving advice on something else. 

Example Twitter:

I don't use twitter, ever.
Have you seen the identity fights going on twitter and the enormous waste of time/energy that it takes to maintain them? Its like a black hole where identities go to die.

Its all people discuss on most media channels too or social media most of the time. When reality TV first started (showing my age ) I never knew why I hated the idea of it so much, I mean its just a TV program who cares, but its because almost all of it was discussing/defending/attacking self-created or show-created identities. 

Example Cults of Personality or Branding

Identities formed for a task or to achieve something, even just sell a brand. I won't go into this but you get the idea, they do a heck of a lot of harm to impressionable minds, and form a barrier in the way of greater understanding of a product or the results of a test, experience, or self and group reflection. Constantly getting in the way of necessary improvements or restructuring inside a company or civil service.

*Oh and I've had now TWO sets of aunt/uncles that won't leave their home to go into assisted living because of the strong identities they've formed around having a house and being independent. All of them have had extremely bad experiences as a result of this, I won't go into too much detail but a lot of suffering was/is involved.

Edited August 7, 2022 by BlueOak