Carl-Richard

Tier 1 vs. Tier 2

123 posts in this topic

I just found a neat way of describing the differences between Tier 1 and Tier 2 when it comes to the individualist vs. collectivist orientation of each stage.

 

Tier 1: 

Individualist (Beige, Red, Orange):
"My values"

Collectivist (Purple, Blue, Green):
"Our values"

 

It's individualist in the sense of focusing on one's own life and values, and it's collectivist in the sense of focusing on the values and lives of the community.

 

Tier 2:

Individualist (Yellow):
"All values for me"

Collectivist (Turquoise):
"All values for us"

 

It's individualist in the sense of integrating the entire spiral into oneself, and then collectivist in the sense of actually uniting the spiral in the real world.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Posted (edited)

@Carl-Richard

Tier 1 people don't understand that there is this structure of different values and therefore are sheeps. Individualist sheeps don't understand that having good connection with community is important and beaufitul and collectivist sheeps don't see that their helping is actually just helping themselves. Yellow is the first who understands that everything everyone does is for themselves and that it is all about the valeus and turquoise is just yellow who sees him/herself so strongly in others that when (s)he helps the energy is always within and cannot escape, because the story of other's life is also something you perceive and therefore affects you.

-joNi-

Edited by Kksd74628

Who told you that "others" are real?

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Only exception I see is red. I imagine Red as selfish. But this selfishness can be extended to a tribe. 

For example a Red can say - "for my own good/welfare." 

Or

A red can say - "for the welfare of me and my tribe." 

A red when powerful and united can be stronger than Green

 


Do not engage. Do not engage. Do not engage black pill. I need to write Dear Berrylee in my signature.Gaurzeugus.

 

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@Tyler Robinson All people live in a community or "tribe". That is not a contradiction.

Edit: I just watched this and it reminded me of your comment 😂:

Red Joe stands up for daughter 😂


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Posted (edited)

What does it mean to integrate the spiral into one’s self ? Isn’t the goal of SD is that it’s clears any misunderstandings about others, who may have different values (lower or higher in the spiral from the point of perspective) and instead work as a sense-making tool to enhance cooperation among people ?(especially for companies since I guess this was it’s original purpose)

So stage yellow will theoretically want to create schools, companies, businesses, societies etc, that uses the model, which in it’s turn will unite people with different values in actuality.

your saying that turquoise would go even farther than that ? So what's mentioned above is not what you're suggesting to be “uniting the spiral in the real world” ?

Edited by Happy Lizard

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3 hours ago, Happy Lizard said:

What does it mean to integrate the spiral into one’s self ? Isn’t the goal of SD is that it’s clears any misunderstandings about others, who may have different values (lower or higher in the spiral from the point of perspective) and instead work as a sense-making tool to enhance cooperation among people ?(especially for companies since I guess this was it’s original purpose)

The goal of SD, as far as it's a developmental psychological model, is to map out levels of cognitive complexity. Tier 2 is complex enough to handle the problems that Tier 1 isn't able to solve, most crucially the exclusion of other points of view (and the pitfalls of that), by recognizing these views as parts of themselves (and not just retrospectively as a developmental arch, but as constituting their very being, i.e. Tier 2 is purple, red, blue etc.).

It also understands the existential necessity of Tier 1 in all its forms as a means to its own development. In other words, there is a nurturing capacity analogous to parents for their child, where the ultimate solution to any problem regarding the child's behavior is clearly understood as adulthood, not annihilation.

That doesn't mean that the only good parent is endlessly benevolent and lets their child devour them. That would go back to the importance of integrating the lessons from earlier perspectives (e.g. Red autonomy & respect, Blue order & restraint etc.).

 

3 hours ago, Happy Lizard said:

your saying that turquoise would go even farther than that ? So what's mentioned above is not what you're suggesting to be “uniting the spiral in the real world” ?

Yellow is when Tier 2 starts to take root in the individual. There may be aspirations to change the world, but the means are very limited. A good example of this is the Game B crowd and their various off-shots (e.g. the Consilience project). They're mostly stuck in a very one-sided approach to changing systems, e.g. writing articles, doing podcasts, conferences etc.

On the other hand, a good example of Turquoise is Sadhguru, not because he is a mystic, but because he has managed to inspire and mobilize literally millions of people into taking action, changing government policies, talking at international forums, live TV interviews etc. And yes, Sadhguru is indeed a Tier 2 thinker (I can prove it :P). 


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Good stuff everyone. :)

 I appreciate the distinction that's made between deficiency needs and being needs.  That is between tier 1 and 2,,,,

I've heard it said that in second tier one is more often working from the initiative of selfish fulfillment or inspiration.

Yellow

The transition from the First Tier of Consciousness to the Yellow level of the
Second Tier is a “momentous leap” according to Clare Graves (1974, 2005), when
the individual realizes that equally distributing resources among all people and
expecting that all humans are equally good and loving creates more problems
than it solves. This leap may occur when life conditions change to seriously
threaten survival, and the individual/species has to relearn survival (Graves,2002).
There are currently a small number of individuals who operate from the
Second Tier of existence, but the species as a whole has not yet evolved to this
level (Ooten, 2010).

http://www.consciousdynamicsllc.com/home/levels_of_consciousness.html

 


"To have a free mind is to be a universal heretic." - A.H. Almaas

"We have to bless the living crap out of everyone." - Matt Kahn

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12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Sadhguru is indeed a Tier 2 thinker (I can prove it :P). 

Yeah, please? I don’t really understand what evidence would qualifies a turquoise thinker, but any insights I guess would be good.

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34 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

Yeah, please? I don’t really understand what evidence would qualifies a turquoise thinker, but any insights I guess would be good.

Systems thinking, deep ecology and holism being applied in full force on the systems of humanity and nature. What the Game B guys only make animated YouTube videos about, Sadhguru does in real life: Rally For Rivers, Cauvery Calling, Project GreenHands etc.

What Green generally only has a partial and intuitive understanding of (the importance of ecology, social inclusion etc.), Yellow manages to articulate and systematize into a coherent framework, and Turquoise manages to apply it in practice to its full extent.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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23 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What the Game B guys only make animated YouTube videos about, Sadhguru does in real life: Rally For Rivers, Cauvery Calling, Project GreenHands etc.

Sadghuru is a very conscious and great leader, but lets give huge credit to his team too, because they are the ones who are collectively doing the heavylifting for him.I don't want to take any credit away from sadhguru either, because he is amazing, but i rarely see people give credit to his team.

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4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Systems thinking, deep ecology and holism being applied in full force on the systems of humanity and nature. What the Game B guys only make animated YouTube videos about, Sadhguru does in real life: Rally For Rivers, Cauvery Calling, Project GreenHands etc.

What Green generally only has a partial and intuitive understanding of (the importance of ecology, social inclusion etc.), Yellow manages to articulate and systematize into a coherent framework, and Turquoise manages to apply it in practice to its full extent.

Aha, beautifully said👍
 

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On 02/08/2022 at 7:33 AM, Carl-Richard said:

Yellow is when Tier 2 starts to take root in the individual. There may be aspirations to change the world, but the means are very limited. A good example of this is the Game B crowd and their various off-shots (e.g. the Consilience project). They're mostly stuck in a very one-sided approach to changing systems, e.g. writing articles, doing podcasts, conferences etc.

On the other hand, a good example of Turquoise is Sadhguru, not because he is a mystic, but because he has managed to inspire and mobilize literally millions of people into taking action, changing government policies, talking at international forums, live TV interviews etc. And yes, Sadhguru is indeed a Tier 2 thinker (I can prove it :P). 

 

23 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Systems thinking, deep ecology and holism being applied in full force on the systems of humanity and nature. What the Game B guys only make animated YouTube videos about, Sadhguru does in real life: Rally For Rivers, Cauvery Calling, Project GreenHands etc.

What Green generally only has a partial and intuitive understanding of (the importance of ecology, social inclusion etc.), Yellow manages to articulate and systematize into a coherent framework, and Turquoise manages to apply it in practice to its full extent.

@Carl-Richard what about Elon Musk?He is into sustainable energy,eco-tech ,clean tech and all..

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23 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Systems thinking, deep ecology and holism being applied in full force on the systems of humanity and nature. 

So green and yellow on drugs🤤😋

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13 minutes ago, flyingguitarist said:

what about Elon Musk?He is into sustainable energy,eco-tech ,clean tech and all..

 No.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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On 02/08/2022 at 7:52 PM, JoeVolcano said:

I think it's tricky to judge someone's spiral stage by their outward accomplishments only. You can be turquoise and have a major impact, but not having a major impact does not mean you're not turquoise. Plenty of people remain unknowns or even retreat from the world altogether, and aren't the slightest bit interested in meddling in human affairs. In fact the most mature people seldom do. Those are the ones you never hear about, and there is every reason to believe that they are much more numerous than the whiz-bang examples of the occasional public figure.

I would say that the false positives are a lot more common than the false negatives, especially at the highest levels. But even the false positives are not that many at the highest levels, so that makes the false negatives really rare.

Personally, I only know a couple of people (besides myself) that are barely tier 2. How many tier 2 people that you know personally?

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Posted (edited)

On 8/2/2022 at 4:03 AM, Carl-Richard said:

The goal of SD, as far as it's a developmental psychological model, is to map out levels of cognitive complexity. Tier 2 is complex enough to handle the problems that Tier 1 isn't able to solve, most crucially the exclusion of other points of view (and the pitfalls of that), by recognizing these views as parts of themselves (and not just retrospectively as a developmental arch, but as constituting their very being, i.e. Tier 2 is purple, red, blue etc.).

It also understands the existential necessity of Tier 1 in all its forms as a means to its own development. In other words, there is a nurturing capacity analogous to parents for their child, where the ultimate solution to any problem regarding the child's behavior is clearly understood as adulthood, not annihilation.

That doesn't mean that the only good parent is endlessly benevolent and lets their child devour them. That would go back to the importance of integrating the lessons from earlier perspectives (e.g. Red autonomy & respect, Blue order & restraint etc.).

 

Yellow is when Tier 2 starts to take root in the individual. There may be aspirations to change the world, but the means are very limited. A good example of this is the Game B crowd and their various off-shots (e.g. the Consilience project). They're mostly stuck in a very one-sided approach to changing systems, e.g. writing articles, doing podcasts, conferences etc.

On the other hand, a good example of Turquoise is Sadhguru, not because he is a mystic, but because he has managed to inspire and mobilize literally millions of people into taking action, changing government policies, talking at international forums, live TV interviews etc. And yes, Sadhguru is indeed a Tier 2 thinker (I can prove it :P). 

For me personally Tier 2 means recognizing all the different parts and desires (survival, belonging, power, law & order, achievement, pluralism) of oneself and, for the first time in ones development, being able to not play them out against each other, but striving to find synthesis that acknowledges and embraces them all. I don't like the idea of a stage turquoise personally (if you're properly integrated you wouldn't pursue these things just for yourself); I would rather just hold this integral frame as it is and put another axis on it that could be called "Consciousness/Self-Awareness," if one wants to reconcile Spirituality with this model, instead of endlessly adding higher and higher stages (Tier 3 and all that madness).

I would say the Game B people are basically in the business of designing a Civilization with a capital C, while Sadhguru is focusing on pragmatic solutions and creating change from within the current system. It's not obvious to me which is the better approach long-term. Schmachtenberger and the like would probably argue that civilization in it's current form is intrinsically self-terminating, no matter how much soil we save or how many people we enlighten, and I find that quite plausible when looking at the argumentation and premises on which these people operate. Enlightement will not prevent people from destroying the planet, and that's what Game B is about. Sadhguru is about Spirituality and Consciousness. In my proposed model Game B is operating on the developmental axis and Sadhguru on the spirituality axis (quite the oversimplification but it gets the point across I think). 

I will specify this even further to make my point clear. The Game B philosophy is basically about creating a skeletal version of Civilization (I hesitate to say blueprint because it's really not something concrete; Jordan Hall would call it "Deep Code"), that will then act as a strange attractor for our civilization. This might seem a bit esoteric and impractical but it's actually quite coherent and plausible once you actually take these dynamics and the whole systems/complexity view of reality seriously; obviously this will be a multi-generation process which makes Sadhgurus or even Leo's "you're imagining it all" approach quite compelling in contrast. 

I may be overfitting at points but my main point is that you can not compare Sadhguru and Game B nor should you throw spirituality and cognitive development in one bucket.

Edited by Nilsi

"We all must be, and can only be, a light unto ourselves."

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Turquoise is at least 1% of the population, maybe 3%.

 

There are 8 levels above Turquoise so that's when it gets really rarefied.

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1 minute ago, Artsu said:

There are 8 levels above Turquoise so that's when it gets really rarefied.

No.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Just now, Carl-Richard said:

No.

Haha, yes.

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