Scholar

Women confuse self-hatred with gender dysphoria?

45 posts in this topic

 

So, my intuition currently is shifting towards the position that a lot of young women confuse their self hatred, dissatisfaction with the role of a woman, disgust of their own body due to social media influences as gender dysphoria. This is a position MrGirl has arrived at, a lot of reports from transgender individuals in US colleges seem to confirm that there is a large number of women who seem to have a completely different experience from individuals with genuine gender dysphoria.

For a confused teenager, who is bombarded on social media with different kinds of ideologies, I think it is exceptionally difficult to find out what is wrong with one. How does one know whether or not ones self-hatred is not gender dysphoria? Especially for teenage girls, who seem to have a hard time since the advent of social media, having to compare themselves to other women and so forth, I can imagine the current ideologies proposed by even the most extreme activistis to be very attractive. If one hates ones position in society as a woman, one hates ones body because one is not as attractive as a proposed ideal, it becomes very alluring to say that all ones problems stems from the fact that one is in the wrong role, the wrong body. It not only gives one a cause for all one's suffering, it also makes one special, which is something troubled teenagers usually gravitate toward (think of the emo or punk movements for example).

I do very much get the sense that what we are seeing is more of a social phenomena, rather than one rooted in some sort of genuine dysfunction in the brain. What do you guys think?

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1 hour ago, Scholar said:

a lot of reports from transgender individuals in US colleges seem to confirm that there is a large number of women who seem to have a completely different experience from individuals with genuine gender dysphoria. 

Could you share those examples with us? 

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Posted (edited)

This topic goes very deep. For some people, there'll always be a sort of dissatisfaction before one realizes that both the feminine and masculine are within themselves no matter the "biological gender". It is the suppression of both polarities that at least partially contributes to the longing for "the other" side. We don't yet live in a society yet where the expression of masculine and feminine is accepted/encouraged, allowance of such a range of self-expression - whatever comes naturally for the individual. There's suppression on both genders to act only according to their biological assignment, many people strongly possess both polarities in them and this seeks to be seen and understood, but mostly society rejects this notion one can be "bi-gender".  

On the women's front, if it is the case more are wanting to become man, it seems to me a push to equalize power and sovereignty where it is imbalanced. It is objectively the case that women on the whole do not get as much say in their lives (ie trusted to make their own damn decisions), and are given as much independence no matter where they go - their family, work, or relationships. Most women are forever treated like "subhumans" and not whole beings whose voice and autonomy are just as valid as a man's, they're treated like they're servants to the family system and those with more power. Society on the whole attempt to silence and trample on minorities and women, and treat them as lesser and like slaves. Now they don't even get a say in abortion in even one of the most developed countries. So don't be surprised when slaves rebel. 

When you say "self-hatred", it's more like hatred projected onto women by their environment, that slowly feeds onto the girl growing up. 

This clip is yet another instance of denial of women's voice by defaulting them as "crazy".

And finally, because you are God, being treated as much lesser than God is not gonna fly for long.

The thing I wish gender-dysphoric people knew is, they are actually God! And that they possess both polarities. They're not what they seem. And this is just an avatar. Imagine the amount of self-love that would bring.

Edited by puporing

Truth is love. Truth is beauty. Every frame is a painting. ❣ Nothing but love.

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I identify as a bi-gender. Yes a lot of it has to do with the sexual trauma I endured. And it made me feel like my fault was being a woman. Now I increasingly desire to be a man. And it automatically feels good when I'm in a man's role. You're right about certain points.

But who cares at the end of the day. If something makes you feel good go ahead do it. If transitioning makes you feel better then go get gender change surgery. Nobody has the right to judge a person'lifestyle choices. We gotta do what makes us feel good not what the world assumes as right or wrong.

 


Do not engage. Do not engage. Do not engage black pill. I need to write Dear Berrylee in my signature.Gaurzeugus.

 

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, P Michael said:

Could you share those examples with us? 

I can't find you all the examples I have heard in conversations, but Destiny made a manifesto where he collected a bunch of e-mails he got, which I think might give us a good picture of what's going on:

 

8 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I identify as a bi-gender. Yes a lot of it has to do with the sexual trauma I endured. And it made me feel like my fault was being a woman. Now I increasingly desire to be a man. And it automatically feels good when I'm in a man's role. You're right about certain points.

But who cares at the end of the day. If something makes you feel good go ahead do it. If transitioning makes you feel better then go get gender change surgery. Nobody has the right to judge a person'lifestyle choices. We gotta do what makes us feel good not what the world assumes as right or wrong.

 

I think it's harmful, because we as a society are the ones who make women hate themselves, and then we give them the solution: Become a man. To me this is unhealthy.

The thing is, if you run away from self-hatred, you will never fix the root issue by trying to deny the reality of who you are. I am not a fan of self-delusion/self-suppression, it's a temporary and unsustainable fix. In my opinion the answer is self-love. We should be critical of people's choices in regards to how they escape their own suffering, because we are the ones creating that suffering, aswell as the ones offering the seeming solutions.

If someone used cocaine to make themselves feel better about a situation, the loving thing is to critically engage with that choice, not to just say "It's not my problem, let everyone do what they think is right!". This will not work, and this kind of attitude is the very reason why there is so much suffering in this world. We are not just individuals, we live in a collective.

 

So, who cares? True, a society with no compassion and love will say exactly that. But we should care, because that's how society works. We need to care about each other, and ourselves, and alot of what we do today is fueled not by love and compassion, but rather fear and dogmatism.

 

Another dimension is that, if everyone can just switch roles, in the end, we don't even need to find solution. We can surpress and destroy the feminine because, it's a choice, so everyone who doesn't like being feminine, can just be a man. Our "solution" gives us the ability to ignore the root issue. Like, if there was a pill to make everyone happy, we wouldn't need to care about anything anymore. We would give those who poor, exploited and disadvantaged a pill, and everything would be okay. We would never need to address the reasons for their suffering.

Edited by Scholar

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Scholar said:

 

a hard time since the advent of social media, having to compare themselves to other women and so forth

I have never understood statements such as this. They don't HAVE to compare themselves to other women, that was their decision. Every civilization has had its own standards for men and women, long before media technology. If a woman is going to compare herself it has nothing to do with the tools around her, could they make the problem worse? Sure, but they are only making a problem worse which was a personal problem to begin with.

What about Men who have standards they need to meet? You have sports, you have money, you have business and political power. Both men and women are given standards by their surrounding environment how they choose to respond to that is their own personal power.

If society had a strangle hold on what to believe....then ask yourselves how in the hell you guys are on this forum thread right now. You all aren't aliens studying humanity, you went through the same type of societal pressures and CHOSE to pursue what was true to you.

With that said I am not saying it is easy to navigate all these pressures, but your entire life is just a reflection of two things What you think about yourself, and what you think about the world around you. That's it in a nutshell. 

Victim status is low consciousness, higher consciousness is empowerment. I'm not saying don't have compassion, but don't ever rob them of their agency by seeing them as a victim, there are no victims. The biggest lie in life is that there are victims, there never was a victim and there never will be. Victim is selfishness and selfishness is the biggest lie in reality. 

 

Edited by Razard86

The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

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On 24.7.2022 at 2:12 AM, Scholar said:

I do very much get the sense that what we are seeing is more of a social phenomena, rather than one rooted in some sort of genuine dysfunction in the brain. What do you guys think?

I didn't feel that the numbers mentioned in the video indicated how much is social contagion vs. simply more acceptance around coming out (or some other factors). I think it's both, but we probably need better stats to parse out that distinction.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Do not engage. Do not engage. Do not engage black pill. I need to write Dear Berrylee in my signature.Gaurzeugus.

 

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@Scholar

How does it matter if one is born male or female?

Why is a transgender any worse than a cis-gendered ?

Whether it's a social phenomenon or rooted in the brain is open for debate, but does it become problematic if it's not legitimate enough? If a person is comfortable in a chosen gender role, it is what it is, they're doing it for survival. It doesn't take away anything. I don't see the harm in choosing to be whatever suits a person's preferences. I don't see how this can be compared to cocaine. Cocaine has visible effects on the body. But does being a different gender (than the one you're born with ) have an impact on health? If so prove it. Since I have adopted myself as a male,I don't see any adverse impact on my health. I feel happier and better being a man. I never felt a problem.

 


Do not engage. Do not engage. Do not engage black pill. I need to write Dear Berrylee in my signature.Gaurzeugus.

 

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5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I didn't feel that the numbers mentioned in the video indicated how much is social contagion vs. simply more acceptance around coming out (or some other factors). I think it's both, but we probably need better stats to parse out that distinction.

If it was the acceptance of coming out, we would have seen the same among trans women (males who transition to women), no? That's a pretty strong argument, especially if historically we never saw this as much in females, aswell as the child history of dysphoria lacking within the teenage girls who now transition.

Sure we need more data, but to question the validity of these kinds of claims is viewed as taboo in our culture, which I think is detrimental to the individuals we are trying to treat.

 

2 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

@Scholar

How does it matter if one is born male or female?

Why is a transgender any worse than a cis-gendered ?

Whether it's a social phenomenon or rooted in the brain is open for debate, but does it become problematic if it's not legitimate enough? If a person is comfortable in a chosen gender role, it is what it is, they're doing it for survival. It doesn't take away anything. I don't see the harm in choosing to be whatever suits a person's preferences. I don't see how this can be compared to cocaine. Cocaine has visible effects on the body. But does being a different gender (than the one you're born with ) have an impact on health? If so prove it. Since I have adopted myself as a male,I don't see any adverse impact on my health. I feel happier and better being a man. I never felt a problem.

 

With such arguments you are undermining the trans experience. If it didn't matter what you are, then people wouldn't be killing themselves and going for surgery to change their bodies. They don't do this for fun, they do this because they are suffering.

You are moralizing this too much in my opinion, this isn't about what's better or worse, this is about the root issue of the suffering of individuals, and the harmful solutions we might be presenting to them. The reason why it woudl be problematic is because it does not address the root of the suffering. I am not interested in debating you, as I am noticing you have no interest in engaging with what I am saying and seem to be personally invested in arguing this, or your personal experience.

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32 minutes ago, Scholar said:

With such arguments you are undermining the trans experience. If it didn't matter what you are, then people wouldn't be killing themselves and going for surgery to change their bodies. They don't do this for fun, they do this because they are suffering.

You're twisting my argument. I didn't say it didn't matter to be trans. I said why does it matter that they aren't what the general population is.

Ironically it's your argument that is undermining their experience by mildly hinting towards transphobia. Because why else would you have a problem if someone wanted to be trans..

Why are you portraying it as unhealthy and problematic ? What's your concern if I change my gender?

Also are we looking for a partition of the trans community into - trans by Nature and trans by social phenomenon? How is it fair to do this ? In my eyes both are same because both are achieving the same objective.

To put down someone like me by saying "hey your experience isn't rooted in your brain," not only it's deeply discriminatory but also undermining my own pain and suffering but also the hypocrisy that your inherent intentions are deeply transphobic because if they weren't, you wouldn't be concerned by it in the first place.

 


Do not engage. Do not engage. Do not engage black pill. I need to write Dear Berrylee in my signature.Gaurzeugus.

 

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

You're twisting my argument. I didn't say it didn't matter to be trans. I said why does it matter that they aren't what the general population is.

Ironically it's your argument that is undermining their experience by mildly hinting towards transphobia. Because why else would you have a problem if someone wanted to be trans..

Why are you portraying it as unhealthy and problematic ? What's your concern if I change my gender?

Also are we looking for a partition of the trans community into - trans by Nature and trans by social phenomenon? How is it fair to do this ? In my eyes both are same because both are achieving the same objective.

To put down someone like me by saying "hey your experience isn't rooted in your brain," not only it's deeply discriminatory but also undermining my own pain and suffering but also the hypocrisy that your inherent intentions are deeply transphobic because if they weren't, you wouldn't be concerned by it in the first place.

 

I have never said it matters that they aren't what the general population is, and I already explained to you the issue. If you want to engage in good faith read my initial comments again, and if I see that you have bothered to comprehend what I am trying to communicating, then I might continue this conversation, otherwise we are only going in circles.

To question the nature of a symptom should be a valid thing to do, and you paint it as if it was transphobic. You don't engage with the substance of what I am saying, and you seek to undermine and invalidate it by moralizing it.

Edited by Scholar

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25 minutes ago, Scholar said:

To question the nature of a symptom should be a valid thing to do, and you paint it as if it was transphobic. You don't engage with the substance of what I am saying, and you seek to undermine and invalidate it by moralizing it.

Why should it be valid unless you see a problem with it ? Explain me first - your problem with it. You are shooting arrows in the dark if you don't want to get down to the nitty gritty of it.

 

 


Do not engage. Do not engage. Do not engage black pill. I need to write Dear Berrylee in my signature.Gaurzeugus.

 

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When spirituality meets transphobia. 

Seriously people, stop responding to this as if this self-appointed internet scholar is actually presenting a critical subject matter and isn't just a simpering transphobe. My dude actually named himself @Scholar and cited a Jordan Peterson video. It's hard to conjure a more pretentious commitment to the phony aesthetic of intellectualism.

Just cringe and ignore the poor troll. He is insecure and projecting his own self-hatred onto people suffering from the very real affliction of gender dysphoria.

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@Scholar I'm asking you a very cuthroat question and you're constantly trying to evade my argument.

You haven't scientifically proved your point. Why should I believe you when you say it's unhealthy to want to be trans. But where is the Proof that it's unhealthy ? This is simply your opinion. You think it's unhealthy. But are there any studies to back up your claim ?

Where is the valid proof that it's unhealthy to want to be another gender?

Show me your claim.

For example if I said that smoking is unhealthy for lungs, I'm making a legit claim. I can show you X ray scans of human lungs after years of smoking that show shriveling and degradation. Leading to death due to asphyxiation..

But where is the link between trans lifestyle and health degradation ?

If a trans person committed suicide, it's generally not because they chose to be trans, but because they were frustrated that society didn't want to accept them and they felt like an outcast. and we all know that being discriminated or treated like an outcast can lead to feelings of unworthiness just like racism does.. So it's legit that a trans person would feel depressed and suicidal.

These feelings have little to do with their choice of gender change and more to do with how society chooses to perceive them.

Explain your argument please.

 


Do not engage. Do not engage. Do not engage black pill. I need to write Dear Berrylee in my signature.Gaurzeugus.

 

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Why just the emphasis on women?  
Regarding it being a social phenomenon, I think many people are genuine about it but now it seems more and more people are jumping on the bandwagon to be part of that crowd and fit in somewhere. I think obviously there are people who are serious about wanting to change gender and really feel they have been born into the wrong body.  But I feel like yea some of it is about wanting to fit into a certain group, which anyone can do, any outcast without a friend group can announce themselves as gender neutral then they will be welcomed into the queer community. Which is fine, it’s survival, nothing new.  But whilst there are genuine people there are also people making a social trend out of it, where everyone ends up looking and behaving the same so they can fit into that particular crowd. And you see this all the time with other crowds like goths or rockers for example. 
 

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I'm sure there are people throughout all points of history that have felt uncomfortable in their bodies, though this recent wave seems bigger than it is because of hysteria and social media.

Even if some of it is mental illness or confusion it's mostly benign in my opinion. Everyone deserves rights and access to a reasonable and fair degree of healthcare so they can live an unimpeded life. It's best to just attain that even if we are expending some logical consistency/science.

In the context of Actualized and personal development though it's all just nonsense, the identifications are falsehood and will have to be dropped and realized they are just imaginary things holding you back. Only individuals can have those realizations and make changes for themselves though, nobody else can do it for them.

Group thinkers gonna group think.


OCEAN MAN TAKE ME BY THE LAND LEAD ME TO THE LAND THAT YOU UNDERSTAND

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcaPiiFZu2o&ab_channel=Ween-Topic

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5 hours ago, Scholar said:

If it was the acceptance of coming out, we would have seen the same among trans women (males who transition to women), no? That's a pretty strong argument, especially if historically we never saw this as much in females, aswell as the child history of dysphoria lacking within the teenage girls who now transition.

If social contagion supposedly only affects young teenage girls, then why can it not also be the same for acceptance for coming out?

Child history of dysphoria assumes that they're willing to come out in the first place. The level of acceptance is still a factor, unless they're so young that they're unable to understand social roles or feel social pressures.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Posted (edited)

I often feel like a girl in a male body.  However, I don't view hormones and cosmetic surgeries as a potential solution because my intellectual instincts tell me it's not a good solution.  

So, I literally have trans feelings, but I just interpret my path to feeling good about myself as more of a spiritual journey of overcoming the self-hatred and homophobia taught to me by my experiences.  

I'm uncomfortable with physical transformation of the human body because it's a construction, it's not an actual change of your XX or XY chromosomes.  It's female body impersonation.  So by changing your body, you're not really becoming the other sex.  You're becoming something else, a surgical impersonation of the opposite sex.  

Frankly, I think from a spiritual point of view the idea of going under the knife to change your body should be extraordinarily disturbing to people. In the same way woman getting general cosmetic surgeries should be disturbing, but more extreme.  It's all because you hate yourself on some level.  

Again, I have trans feelings, I feel I have special privilege to say these sorts of things.  I love gay people, including those who identify trans.  

@Scholar  I don't think you fully understand the issue of transsexuality, how it feels, nor should you really be commenting on it.  If you're not gay and don't understand those feelings then be self-conscious for a moment.  Sometimes when someone comments on this issue it's like a white person telling a black person how they should feel about black history and societal racism.  

And no it doesn't matter how close your opinion mirrors the correct view.  Some people shouldn't comment or have an opinion.  

Edited by Heart of Space

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1 hour ago, Roy said:

I'm sure there are people throughout all points of history that have felt uncomfortable in their bodies, though this recent wave seems bigger than it is because of hysteria and social media.

Even if some of it is mental illness or confusion it's mostly benign in my opinion. Everyone deserves rights and access to a reasonable and fair degree of healthcare so they can live an unimpeded life. It's best to just attain that even if we are expending some logical consistency/science.

In the context of Actualized and personal development though it's all just nonsense, the identifications are falsehood and will have to be dropped and realized they are just imaginary things holding you back. Only individuals can have those realizations and make changes for themselves though, nobody else can do it for them.

Group thinkers gonna group think.

Great take. Couldn't agree more.


The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

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