Leo and the Mentally Ill

[bejapuskas]

@Mindful Bum  I am sorry, I did not mean to defend Leo's position entirely, just the bit about him not trying to treat people with mental illnesses, because I actually consider that a good thing to do, that is if he just is not trained. I kinda have some mental illnesses myself, I am also queer, so like I often come into contact with people who just do not know how to respond to me. And that is just a sad reality. Of course, saying you would never be friends with somebody seems like he maybe does not really have an idea of what it means, I am not trying to defend that. Just saying, if you are seeking help, spend yourself the potential pain and trauma and seek it in resources where people are trained. Teach yourself to seek help from people who actually understand your situation, and that does not even have to be professionals, as some of them also suck. I am just saying, build boundaries around who you open up to - that sometimes means your favorite teacher is gonna keep hruting you and you might have to drop them. 

I am not trying to defend offences against people with mental illnesses, those really are unexcusable, everyone can read up about how not to hurt others, that should be common decency. I am just saying it is not everybody's responsibility to help everybody, we are limited humans, we need to have different of focus. Even if Leo says his content is holistic, and encompasses everything, which I don't think he entirely does, he possibly cannot.

Of course he can make his videos more friendly to oppressed groups and he should, it just better to do that, but that does not mean he has to offer treatment etc., especially if he does not have training or interest to do that.

[Danioover9000]

@Danioover9000

16 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Mindful Bum

   I'll write back after watching the video.

   Yes, I've picked up on the subtle change of tone, which is a bit concerning to me, for other reasons partly in context to this thread, and outside it. It's interesting, because if you bring up his video about anger part 1, because you can tell his lack of experience with anger shows in that video. Same also is shown in the current video. Honestly, a person can give a good effort, but not matter what, if you actually lack the life experience, you can't empathize higher and it feels fake. Not to say that the fakeness is con artistry, but that does give that impression.

   Of course, the reality is that we're getting more and more people with mental health problems, along with their usage of social media worsening the issue, which both not only makes it harder to watch an hours long video, but poses a long term risk to Actualized.org making the kind of impact it wants world wide, yet mental health problems are increasing world wide as well.

[Razard86]

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Razard86 A lot of this boils down to, again, your style of communicating (which I've commented on before), which is to deconstruct concepts as a way to make a point, rather than keeping the concepts intact while establishing degrees of nuance.

Mental illness is something society labels you with when you fall outside certain behavioral expectations. Kids who have trouble paying attention in school can get slapped with the ADHD label. People who, in your framing, have trouble overcoming fears, can get slapped with the depressive or psychotic labels.

You can comment on whether these labels reflect something wrong with society (e.g. the school system), rather than the people, without abandoning mental illness as a concept. The concept exists, the diagnoses exist; the question is just about to which degree they're useful or not.

1. You can conceptualize anything. in 1972 homosexuality was listed in the DSM. So just cause a group of people says something exists, and creates a concept doesn't validate it. Currently Science cannot even properly conceptualize strategies to explain the brain, it is still considered the new frontier. Many of these scientists still think consciousness is some phenomena with the brain. The fact that people on this forum are open-minded enough to believe that...but yet still think mental illness is a thing is beyond the pale. 

2.I never abandoned mental illness as a concept, as I recognize that people believe it and as long as they believe it exists in their direct experience it will. That's how all of reality works, it is filtered by your beliefs. If you track human progress it only begins when you doubt the status quo, take personal ownership of what you believe and research and seek the truth for yourself instead of relying on Authority Figures to tell you what is real. You are the ultimate authority in your life, and your reality serves you. It serves you, I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this. All the evidence is around that proves that your beliefs create your reality. 

3. The concept of materialism exists, is it useful? Anything can be useful, anything can be practical. I don't care about practical or usefulness, I only care about what is true. There are literally people who can heal themselves through visualization, and focused attention on thoughts and emotions. By putting themselves in congruence they perform things that medical science cannot explain. 

So if people are able to do these things, by showing that many medical issues are a result of belief systems, traumas/fears, which impact how the body functions. For example if you are angry long enough, your body starts producing poisons. So the medical model of labeling someone as having a disorder and drugging them is a rampant issue which is also related to some mass shootings as many of the same young males who are doing these shootings were put on medication for ADHD or ADD at a young age. 

Now with that said I'm not saying to abandon medical science or there institutions because at the end of the day you have to meet people where they are at. As long as a person believes in the materialist paradigm when it comes health, they will need to be treated under those conditions. But anyone who thinks because that is where the status quo is, that means that's reality speak for yourself.

In my direct experience I have transcended all their so called models because I knew it was illusion. The illusion makes you give up your authority and see yourself as a victim and thus reality serves you and gives you exactly that. I am about self-empowerment and everyone realizing the power they have within.

[Razard86]

7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

What about schizophrenia?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/03/24/how-a-west-african-shaman-helped-my-schizophrenic-son-in-a-way-western-medicine-couldnt/

I believe again that Western Science is confused. I believe many people with schizophrenia would probably be trained to be mystics or shamans in ancient cultures. They would probably have the proper environment to integrate these experiences.

https://digitalcollections.sit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=2851&context=isp_collection

If you live in a fear based culture that demonizes these experiences then of course you would imitate or view these experiences as crazy and think something is wrong with you. Spirituality is all about surrendering to what is. Once you can accept something is when you can finally see something for what it is, not your fears or projections.

Mental Illness is just society's projections of fear of what they don't understand. No different than racism, sexism, ageism, and whatever other isms and phobias you want to put in there. Its why its so hard for those in the West (me included) to pursue and integrate Spiritual experiences because we are conditioned that these things are bad. 

[Danioover9000]

@Razard86

38 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

1. You can conceptualize anything. in 1972 homosexuality was listed in the DSM. So just cause a group of people says something exists, and creates a concept doesn't validate it. Currently Science cannot even properly conceptualize strategies to explain the brain, it is still considered the new frontier. Many of these scientists still think consciousness is some phenomena with the brain. The fact that people on this forum are open-minded enough to believe that...but yet still think mental illness is a thing is beyond the pale. 

2.I never abandoned mental illness as a concept, as I recognize that people believe it and as long as they believe it exists in their direct experience it will. That's how all of reality works, it is filtered by your beliefs. If you track human progress it only begins when you doubt the status quo, take personal ownership of what you believe and research and seek the truth for yourself instead of relying on Authority Figures to tell you what is real. You are the ultimate authority in your life, and your reality serves you. It serves you, I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this. All the evidence is around that proves that your beliefs create your reality. 

3. The concept of materialism exists, is it useful? Anything can be useful, anything can be practical. I don't care about practical or usefulness, I only care about what is true. There are literally people who can heal themselves through visualization, and focused attention on thoughts and emotions. By putting themselves in congruence they perform things that medical science cannot explain. 

So if people are able to do these things, by showing that many medical issues are a result of belief systems, traumas/fears, which impact how the body functions. For example if you are angry long enough, your body starts producing poisons. So the medical model of labeling someone as having a disorder and drugging them is a rampant issue which is also related to some mass shootings as many of the same young males who are doing these shootings were put on medication for ADHD or ADD at a young age. 

Now with that said I'm not saying to abandon medical science or there institutions because at the end of the day you have to meet people where they are at. As long as a person believes in the materialist paradigm when it comes health, they will need to be treated under those conditions. But anyone who thinks because that is where the status quo is, that means that's reality speak for yourself.

In my direct experience I have transcended all their so called models because I knew it was illusion. The illusion makes you give up your authority and see yourself as a victim and thus reality serves you and gives you exactly that. I am about self-empowerment and everyone realizing the power they have within.

 

23 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/03/24/how-a-west-african-shaman-helped-my-schizophrenic-son-in-a-way-western-medicine-couldnt/

I believe again that Western Science is confused. I believe many people with schizophrenia would probably be trained to be mystics or shamans in ancient cultures. They would probably have the proper environment to integrate these experiences.

https://digitalcollections.sit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=2851&context=isp_collection

If you live in a fear based culture that demonizes these experiences then of course you would imitate or view these experiences as crazy and think something is wrong with you. Spirituality is all about surrendering to what is. Once you can accept something is when you can finally see something for what it is, not your fears or projections.

Mental Illness is just society's projections of fear of what they don't understand. No different than racism, sexism, ageism, and whatever other isms and phobias you want to put in there. Its why its so hard for those in the West (me included) to pursue and integrate Spiritual experiences because we are conditioned that these things are bad. 

   How is this related to what OP wrote?

[Razard86]

2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Razard86

 

   How is this related to what OP wrote?

I'm responding to people who asked me questions directly not to the OP.

[Danioover9000]

@Razard86

40 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

I'm responding to people who asked me questions directly not to the OP.

   Ok. IS there anything you want to say to the OP directly regarding the thread topic?

[Mindful Bum]

40 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Razard86

   Ok. IS there anything you want to say to the OP directly regarding the thread topic?

Well one of my points was that Leo seems to believe that mental illness is a concrete thing, when in fact it's a very subjective, nebulous concept. @Razard86 expanded on this point, which I appreciate. I also appreciate your perspective that you shared above.

[Razard86]

57 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Razard86

   Ok. IS there anything you want to say to the OP directly regarding the thread topic?

Are you the OP's spokesman? Do I need to make an appointment?

[Razard86]

5 minutes ago, Mindful Bum said:

Well one of my points was that Leo seems to believe that mental illness is a concrete thing, when in fact it's a very subjective, nebulous concept. @Razard86 expanded on this point, which I appreciate. I also appreciate your perspective that you shared above.

Thank you, I would never intentionally deny the emotions  (well try not to, I'm not perfect) of those who struggle with mental illness. The reason I say its not a thing because we make it out to be some permanent thing. Outside of structural or chemical abnormalities (which I still think collectively humanity will eventually figure that out as well) we can very much eradicate mental illness.

The experiences people who suffer with mental illness exists, I'd be a fool to say otherwise. But I'd be a fool to say that we don't right now have the tools to completely heal all those who suffer from mental illness because we do. 

Right now the tools exist but they aren't mainstream so....this will set us back decades until either mainstream science eventually changes or society changes.

The reason I say stuff like it doesn't exist because how they define it...that doesn't exist.

Mental Health is real, but how modern science defines it they label it like its some permanent malady you are stuck with and tern you into a victim.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Razard86

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

1. You can conceptualize anything. in 1972 homosexuality was listed in the DSM.

Yes. Homosexuality went against the behavioral expectations of society for a long time.

 

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

So just cause a group of people says something exists, and creates a concept doesn't validate it.

Society validates it by definition. You're acting like there is this objective measurement. There is no such thing.

 

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

2. I never abandoned mental illness as a concept

You said it's a "made-up thing by modern society" in order to dismiss it by some objective criteria, but the only thing you did was affirm its definition.

 

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

3. The concept of materialism exists, is it useful? Anything can be useful, anything can be practical. I don't care about practical or usefulness, I only care about what is true.

Then why are you talking about psychiatry? You might want to rewatch the JP video you linked.

[Razard86]

58 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yes. Homosexuality went against the behavioral expectations of society for a long time.

When did I dispute this? My whole premise is society pretty much labels people and people sadly believe said labels.

58 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Society validates it by definition. You're acting like there is this objective measurement. There is no such thing.

Never said there was an objective measurement that was the whole reason I linked those videos. They can't really figure out how to measure behavior that is considered deviant.

58 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You said it's a "made-up thing by modern society" in order to dismiss it by some objective criteria, but the only thing you did was affirm its definition.

All concepts are made up. The language we speak is made up. Pointing out that it is made up is not abandoning it no more than me pointing out that language is made up. Anthropologists say that race is a social construct and it doesn't exist. But if you asked them if in society it exists they would say yes. 

Copernicus said the Earth rotated around the Sun but society told him he was wrong and jailed him. 

This is what I am saying. In my reality (which is my personal bubble) mental illness doesn't exist. But in society's bubble those who believe in it that will be their reality. I cannot deny that someone's reality feels real to them, but I can tell them if they change their beliefs and consider an alternative perspective that could change. 

At this point we are just arguing interpretations and intentions.

58 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Then why are you talking about psychiatry? You might want to rewatch the JP video you linked.

What's the famous saying? Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. JP was used as an example along with another professional to show that within their own field they don't even know. You have a neuroscientist who says it doesn't exist a psychologist who says it doesn't exist and Jordan Peterson who says it exists but they don't even know how to measure or test for it and that its very vague and interlaps. 

They are pretty much just making up labels (making it up as they go) and the more you study that field you will realize that. They have no clue what they are really doing, and it is very hard to find someone in the field who is effective. There are those who have made great strides in the field but most in the field are confused because the subject is still in its infancy even after all these decades.

For example there has only been recent breakthroughs in dealing with narcissim, for decades they thought it was impossible to cure. Guess what the most promising treatment is? Something called Cold Therapy where you reintroduce the patient to the childhood trauma that stunted their ego development and made them a narcissist. What did I say earlier mental illness is? Resistance to what is...its fear. All fear. Humanity will eventually transcend mental illness collectively when they can eliminate their fear. May take a couple hundred years. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Razard86

[Danioover9000]

@Razard86

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Are you the OP's spokesman? Do I need to make an appointment?

   No, I just don't like users wasting time and derail this thread, but as OP said you've expanded on some point so I'll let this slide.

[Carl-Richard]

20 hours ago, Razard86 said:

When did I dispute this? My whole premise is society pretty much labels people and people sadly believe said labels.

It seems like you're treating psychiatry as being in the business of ontological truth claims ("I don't care about practical or usefulness, I only care about what is true"). Psychiatry is in the business of practical problem solving; diagnosis, treatment and prevention. Yes, it's true that laymen like to take a naive realist interpretation of what are intended to be pragmatic tools (they think diagnoses are real things), but psychiatrists don't do that.

[Razard86]

19 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Razard86

    so I'll let this slide.

I plead the 5th your honor

[Razard86]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

it seems like you're treating psychiatry as being in the business of ontological truth claims ("I don't care about practical or usefulness, I only care about what is true"). Psychiatry is in the business of practical problem solving; diagnosis, treatment and prevention. Yes, it's true that laymen like to take a naive realist interpretation of what are intended to be pragmatic tools (they think diagnoses are real things), but psychiatrists don't do that.

Hmmm this is an interesting question. You said you don't believe psychiatrists are in the business of ontological truths....

That would be an interesting question. I think some of them do and obviously some don't. Pretty interesting subject.

I'd argue JP's argument and others similar to him would believe ontological truth is only as true as our ability to map it, measure it, and track it over time. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Razard86

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Razard86 said:

Hmmm this is an interesting question. You said you don't believe psychiatrists are in the business of ontological truths....

That would be an interesting question. I think some of them do and obviously some don't. Pretty interesting subject.

It's one of the first things you learn as an undergrad in psychology or psychiatry (the limitations of psychiatric diagnoses, what they're really for etc.).

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/03/24/how-a-west-african-shaman-helped-my-schizophrenic-son-in-a-way-western-medicine-couldnt/

I believe again that Western Science is confused. I believe many people with schizophrenia would probably be trained to be mystics or shamans in ancient cultures. They would probably have the proper environment to integrate these experiences.

https://digitalcollections.sit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=2851&context=isp_collection

Have you had experiences with schizophrenia? Mystical experiences and psychotic experiences are not the same. Psychotic experiences may have mystical elements, and mystical experiences may have psychotic elements, but that is about it.

[Proserpina]

Psychiatry easily heaps mystical experiences in with mania and psychosis.  They don't really think twice.  I told my psychiatrist and nurse that I had mystical experiences and they labelled it as mania and a part of psychosis immediately. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Proserpina

[Thought Art]

@Proserpina That’s why this is tricky. A lot of western health professionals don’t know anything about mystical experience