SQAAD

Darwin Was Full Of Crap

104 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

ATTENTION=>I agree with evoltution as a theory. I am not denying it. This is just a critique of its metaphysics. Some people don't read carefully the post and jump into conclusions.

I am currently reading a book about evolutionary psychology. I get the sense that science gives explanations which don't explain much. 

For example natural selection and sexual selection is a useful explanation but fails to really explain how could a turtle have a shell in the 1st place. I think not in a billion years, a turtle could develope a shell by some random luck that just happened.

Quote

Evolution by natural selection is not forward-looking and is not “intentional.” The giraffe does not spy the juicy leaves stirring high in the tree and “evolve” a longer neck. Rather, those giraffes that, owing to an inherited variant, happen to have longer necks have an advantage over other giraffes in getting to those leaves. Hence they have a greater chance of surviving and thus of passing on their slightly longer necks to their offspring. Natural selection merely acts on variants that happen to exist. Evolution is not intentional and cannot look into the future and foresee distant needs.

 

Quote

Furthermore, Darwin’s theory implied that the emergence of humans and other species was “blind,” resulting from the slow, unplanned, cumulative process of selection. This contrasted with the view that creationists held of humans (and other species) as part of God’s grand plan or intentional design. Darwin had anticipated this reaction, and apparently delayed the publication of his theory in part because he was worried about upsetting his wife, Emma, who was deeply religious

This is a quote from the book. This scientist fills in the blanks with materialistic explanations. Otherwise the only other explanation left is God.

I highly doubt in a trillion years a giraffe could happen to have a big neck variant. Everything just somehow happened and then we can explain it somehow. The Big Bang somehow happened and by some random brute luck we are all here with all this complexity and intelligence. This is very autistic and misses the point.

Evolution is not blind, but those scientists sure are. They don't see God right in front of their eyes.

 

Edited by SQAAD

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Posted (edited)

@JoeVolcano

8 minutes ago, JoeVolcano said:

When you start from false assumptions, nothing that comes out of it will ever be true.

Yes true. Scientists are not very scientific really. The other day i was listening to a podcast and two scientists were talking about death and how life is a space between 2 eternities (lol)

This is just a story in their head . Yet most of them hold it as true and certain. Its funny.

Edited by SQAAD

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Its obviously just a story but I find it to be one of the better ones xD Its a really sophisticated scientific theory on how reality unfolds, its not making any ontological claims as to how it got here in the first place. If you dont like the arrow of causation just replace it with intelligent design, its the same mechanism only the other way around lol. Of course in the end neither is better or more true.


"We all must be, and can only be, a light unto ourselves."

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

I highly doubt in a trillion years a giraffe could happen to have a big neck variant

Just look at how humans have selectively bred apex predator wolves into chihuahuas, pugs and sausage dogs over only 30,000 years. If you can go from wolf to sausage dog in 30,000 years you can go from giraffe with short neck to giraffe with long neck in 50 million years.

58 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

I think not in a billion years, a turtle could develope a shell by some random luck that just happened.

You are underestimating just how much time a billion years is.

A turtle doesn't just spontaneously generate a shell. It happens very gradually. Maybe you had a population of something that looked like a lizard, then the members of the population with the hardest skin survive more. Once you have a population with hard skin, eventually one of them has a mutation that very slightly infuses the bone and the hardened skin, giving it even greater defense. And then over time the members with greater degrees of this bone/skin infusion survive longer, and eventually you have a shell.

The reason I think these things seem unrealistic to you is that it's so difficult to process these timescales. It's also difficult to process just how much life there is on earth at any given time, all of which is evolving and mutating.

Quote

I think you're right. Maybe it's just the best we can do within the obviously false paradigm of the universe as a blind mechanical machine.

When you start from false assumptions, nothing that comes out of it will ever be true.

In a relative sense, from your POV, the universe is very very mechanical and operates pretty much like clockwork. From an absolute perspective reality is mystical and intelligently designed. It is possible for both of these things to be true at the same time.

God could conceive of a reality that is mechanical like clockwork

Edited by something_else

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@SQAAD I wouldn't go so far as to say that evolution by natural selection is full of crap as you put it, but it is fair to question whether or not it's the whole story.

Similiar to how Newtonian mechanics uncovered something important about how Reality behaves (even if its ontology later proved to be inadequate), the same can probably be said for evolution. 

Neither theory is 'wrong', so much as it is partial and incomplete. Calling either theory 'wrong' simply for being partial incomplete seems to be a case of bad epistemological standards since no theory can ever capture the fullness of Reality. The best it can do is uncover very partial aspects of Reality as they are disclosed to human interests.

For evolution in particular, it does not and cannot answer the more fundamental question of why we seem to be living in a Reality that gives rise to self organizing systems and creative novelty.

Evolution does inarguably tell us something important about how that happens, but it can't in principle give a satisfying answer as to why that is.


"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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7 minutes ago, something_else said:

 

Just look at how humans have selectively bred apex predator wolves into chihuahuas, pugs and sausage dogs over only 30,000 years. If you can go from wolf to sausage dog in 30,000 years you can go from giraffe with short neck to giraffe with long neck in 50 million years.

You are underestimating just how much time a billion years is.

A turtle doesn't just spontaneously generate a shell. It happens very gradually. Maybe you had a population of something that looked like a lizard, then the members of the population with the hardest skin survive more. Once you have a population with hard skin, eventually one of them has a mutation that very slightly infuses the bone and the hardened skin, giving it even greater defense. And then over time the members with greater degrees of this bone/skin infusion survive longer, and eventually you have a shell.

The reason I think these things seem unrealistic to you is that it's so difficult to process these timescales. It's also difficult to process just how much life there is on earth at any given time, all of which is evolving and mutating.

The sticking point with evolution is still, that there had to be something in the first place to evolve. This will never be able to be explained with any kind of theory.


"We all must be, and can only be, a light unto ourselves."

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1 minute ago, Nilsi said:

The sticking point with evolution is still, that there had to be something in the first place to evolve. This will never be able to be explained with any kind of theory.

Never is a strong word

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Posted (edited)

27 minutes ago, something_else said:

 

Just look at how humans have selectively bred apex predator wolves into chihuahuas, pugs and sausage dogs over only 30,000 years. If you can go from wolf to sausage dog in 30,000 years you can go from giraffe with short neck to giraffe with long neck in 50 million years.

You are underestimating just how much time a billion years is.

A turtle doesn't just spontaneously generate a shell. It happens very gradually. Maybe you had a population of something that looked like a lizard, then the members of the population with the hardest skin survive more. Once you have a population with hard skin, eventually one of them has a mutation that very slightly infuses the bone and the hardened skin, giving it even greater defense. And then over time the members with greater degrees of this bone/skin infusion survive longer, and eventually you have a shell.

 

I am not denying that a giraffe can evolve its  neck from small to large. The fact that you even have a neck that can evolve to begin with , is just incredible and can't be ultimately explained.

The fact that you even have all the building blocks that make up reality is incredible and unexplainable.

The notion that somehow accidentaly by some blind stupid luck you can end up with a turtle that has shell or lion with incredible teeths is just silly.

This is how far the logical mind can go when it wants to preserve its materialistic notions and reject  God's Intelligence

Why you have a big neck? Well because it is good for survival.

Why you have such beautiful feathers? Well because it is good for mating.

But What made it that reality can even do something like that so incredible and evolve into all of this?? 

What is the underlying force that even allows such magic to happen?

This is never explained, not can it be explained. Its just pushed further back. The mystery and majesty of reality is not acknowledged.

 

Edited by SQAAD

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No this is stupid. Evolution by natural selection and descent with modification is a demonstrable fact. You can study bacterial evolution in real time. Another example of naive skepticism.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Just now, Carl-Richard said:

No this is stupid. Evolution by natural selection and descent with modification is a demonstrable fact. You can study bacterial evolution in real time. Another example of naive skepticism.

:x

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@Carl-Richard

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

No this is stupid. 

I could say the same . The post is not denying evolution. It criticizes its metaphysics.

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Just now, SQAAD said:

@Carl-Richard

I could say the same . The post is not denying evolution. It criticizes its metaphysics.

What does "evolution is not blind" mean?


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Posted (edited)

@DocWatts

27 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

@SQAAD I wouldn't go so far as to say that evolution by natural selection is full of crap as you put it, but it is fair to question whether or not it's the whole story.

Similiar to how Newtonian mechanics uncovered something important about how Reality behaves (even if its ontology later proved to be inadequate), the same can probably be said for evolution. 

Neither theory is 'wrong', so much as it is partial and incomplete. Calling either theory 'wrong' simply for being partial incomplete seems to be a case of bad epistemological standards since no theory can ever capture the fullness of Reality. The best it can do is uncover very partial aspects of Reality as they are disclosed to human interests.

For evolution in particular, it does not and cannot answer the more fundamental question of why we seem to be living in a Reality that gives rise to self organizing systems and creative novelty.

Evolution does inarguably tell us something important about how that happens, but it can't in principle give a satisfying answer as to why that is.

I did not claim that evolution is full of crap nor that the theory is wrong. I only criticized its metaphysics.

Its implicit metaphysics is full of crap. 

Edited by SQAAD

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@Carl-Richard

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What does "evolution is not blind" mean?

Infinite Intelligence. Not random. 

 

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

@DocWatts

I did not claim that evolution is full of crap nor that the theory is wrong. I only criticized its metaphysics.

Its implicit metaphysics is full of crap. 

For what's it's worth, I totally agree with you on that criticism.

If you're interested in the topic, the philosopher Thomas Nagel write an entire book about just this topic that might be worth checking out.

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Edited by DocWatts

"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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Just now, SQAAD said:

I did not claim that evolution is full of crap nor that the theory is wrong

 

12 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

The notion that somehow accidentaly by some blind stupid luck you can end up with a turtle that has shell or lion with incredible teeths is just silly.

Make up your mind, my man.

From a human's POV, reality is very mechanical and predictable. The mysticism of reality is deeper and more subtle than an intelligent God manipulating evolution, which is what it seems like you are suggesting is the case here.

The mysticism/God in reality is more about why you are even aware asking these questions right now. But within that awareness and POV, there are logic and rules that must be followed and life is a byproduct of these rules.

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Posted (edited)

@something_else

12 minutes ago, something_else said:

 

Make up your mind, my man.

From a human's POV, reality is very mechanical and predictable. The mysticism of reality is deeper and more subtle than an intelligent God manipulating evolution, which is what it seems like you are suggesting is the case here.

The mysticism/God in reality is more about why you are even aware asking these questions right now. But within that awareness and POV, there are logic and rules that must be followed and life is a byproduct of these rules.

I don't understand what you are tying to convey ...

No. Reality its not very predictable at all. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow. The future is unknowable. There are infinite variables that are constantly changing.

Nobody knows about the future of economy in USA or any other country.

Nobody knows about the future of this planet.

You know some basic everyday survival stuff. If i drop the ball, it will fall down etc. But you don't know if you will have cancer 10 years from . Not even the best scientist could tell you that.

God is evolution . Evolution is infinite intelligence. 

What you are suggesting is getting lost in concepts and stories instead. 

Why these rules even exist?  Nobody is denying rules and logic here. This doesn't mean anything. Saying that reality is very mechanical doesn't say very much either. 

I can say that Reality is very magical and it would mean the same thing from my POV.

Edited by SQAAD

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1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

@Carl-Richard

Infinite Intelligence. Not random. 

What Darwin was really arguing against is the anthropomorphized Christian version of God that has a sophisticated plan for every single event, specially with humans in mind ("humans are to reign over the animals"), not the kind of Brahmanic New Age pantheism you're probably accustomed to. The fundamental principles of evolution that were discovered by Darwin are not random. They're very structured. It's just that a part of it ("descent with modification", later known as "genetic mutation") can be described as random, and that type of randomness defeats the Christian creationist worldview. So Darwin is talking about a very specific type of randomness, while you're talking about a much broader type of randomness.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Posted (edited)

@Carl-Richard

19 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

What Darwin was really arguing against is the anthropomorphized Christian version of God that has a sophisticated plan for every single event, specially with humans in mind ("humans are to reign over the animals"), not the kind of Brahmanic New Age pantheism you're probably accustomed to. The fundamental principles of evolution that were discovered by Darwin are not random. They're very structured. It's just that a part of it ("descent with modification", later known as "genetic mutation") can be described as random, and that type of randomness defeats the Christian creationist worldview. So Darwin is talking about a very specific type of randomness, while you're talking about a much broader type of randomness.

Evolution's metaphysics is that basically the reason why a turtle ended up with a shell is not because of God's intentions or Intelligence. But merely because of some accidental/random forces and variants.

Then these variants survived because they were favorable for survival. 

Evolution tries to dismiss the idea that things are the way they are because of Intelligence, which i find laughable.

This is false. Natural selection still doesn't explain how everything can end up like it has. Their fundamental metaphysical explanation is some blind luck.

Edited by SQAAD

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