Trans women are women! Why? Love and Truth that's why

[Yarco]

2 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

I don't know how many trans people care that trans exclusionary people are not attracted to them. 

At least online, it's a common complaint I see among the more extreme elements.

It's on enough people's minds that there's no shortage of articles like this:

Is it discriminatory to refuse to date a trans woman?

Is Refusing to Date Trans People Transphobic?

Is not wanting to have sex with trans people transphobic? I’m trans, here’s what I think.

I’m an old, out and proud lesbian. Am I transphobic if I don’t want to have sex with trans women?

My Boyfriend Discovered I’m Trans, And Now He’s Not My Boyfriend

What people's answer is at this point in time doesn't matter to me. It's worrying that it's being asked at all.

It seems like the next step on the slippery slope. The debate around gay and trans people started with "what people do in the privacy of their bedroom is their own business" and "they just want the same rights as everyone else".

Which I'm fine with up until that point. But we've reached a situation where it seems like it's being actively pushed on people.

Just being indifferent to LGBT people is no longer good enough. We're told "silence is violence." 5 baseball players were reprimanded a couple weeks ago for declining to wear uniforms with LGBT+ logos on them and they were subject to the hate mob online. You don't have to say or do anything, just the inaction of not putting a pride logo on your social media profile during pride month is enough to get you into hot water in some circles. 

I'm happy to let people do their own thing and be whoever they want to be, just don't force me to get involved. When we get to "you have to support me or you're a bigot" it's a problem.

And if you don't tell a new partner that you're trans until you get to the bed and whip your dick out, I think it should be classified as rape/assault the same as stealthing.

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Someone who has a womb and can bear children?

6 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

Based on the most common use of the term woman - 

A woman is an adult female human being.

This is what most people have always meant by woman.

6 hours ago, Roy said:

If you can't grow a birth a baby you simply do not meet my personal definition. That's the most important criteria to me, others are more subjective.

Ait, so 3 people mentioned the biological essentialist definition of woman. Anybody got a different definition?

[bejapuskas]

29 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Ait, so 3 people are for the biological essentialist definition of woman. Anybody got a different definition?

The fascist definition. I don't wanna say that trans women are affected by abortion ban as much as cis women. But trans guys definitely are affected by it a lot, plus they get raped way more often. I am not even mad at the other side it is just discrimination though. I am thinking about leaving this forum, it is not good for my mental.

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

The fascist definition.

Do you have a definition of woman?

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Benton said:

Why should there be a set in stone definition for what a woman is?

I'm just asking for definitions

[Roy]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Do you have a definition of woman?

What is yours?

[bejapuskas]

27 minutes ago, Benton said:

@Carl-Richard That Sadhguru video goes into detail how we are identifying with our biology too much. I agree.

Our biological function is one thing. Creating an identity of man or woman around that or anything else is essentially self defined. If somebody told us that we are a man when we are young and we agreed, it was still us who agreed. We decided yes this dick makes me a man for whatever reason we agree with/invent. 
Its just as easy to identify as a woman with a dick because a woman is an imaginary construct.

My answer is that people have certain biologies. And people with those biologies can be feminine or masculine leaning. However you define yourself is up to you.

Deciding that either way is man or woman is made up. 
It is possible to have a pussy and still be very masculine. Deciding that you are a man because you are masculine in behavior is just identifying with a concept that turns into a self fulfilling prophecy. 
Men and woman are defined differently in cultures around the world.

Why should there be a set in stone definition for what a woman is?

The problem with sports is that people are identifying as men or women. Imaginary concepts. 
It should be broken into biology for who competes. So a trans woman would still compete with men. And really I would want to get rid of such words and be like. This person fits this biological criteria and this person fits this one. This match is farish.

Which raises another interesting point. Some men are naturally stronger than others. So having people compete based off of biological capability has its own issues.

Weight classes could fix that. It will never really be fair. On average a man is still stronger than a woman living the same lifestyle. Biology wise.

Men and women are still made up tho.

Just some ideas.

I agree with this @Carl-Richard , except one small thing. I think that anyone who says they are women, they don't even need to be feminine, they can be masculine trans woman wearing jeans and shirt, I don't care, I don't know their inner state and their personal context, it is not my business to tell them who they are. Only you can know who you are. 

The thing with sports is one thing that usually divides people, and that is also why trans exclusionary "feminists" exist. I agree that unfairness sucks, but as Benton correctly pointed out, even within the same gender, there is inequality. My friend is European champion in rowing, his genetics are insane. He also works a lot, but it is just so obvious he will win almost any rowing race from the start, just like it is with trans women competing against cis women. (Btw how do you even know all of them are cis women, some of them could be trans men in the closet or non-binary, another assumption you are making)

Why not just measure people's strength and make it actually fair? If the whole world cares so much about fairness, then do not look at gender, look at the person's performance, that is what actually matters. However, the world does not care about this. 

[Carl-Richard]

35 minutes ago, Roy said:

What is yours?

Now I have to reveal the point I was building up to ? 

People generally don't care about the definitions of words and whether they make sense or not. They just use words to talk and relate to others (pragmatics), and like you said, social cohesion is a big aspect of this. I know about a few definitions, but the biological essentialist definition makes the most sense to me. That doesn't mean I will speak to a transwoman and call them a man.

[Thought Art]

6 hours ago, Christoph Werner said:

Trans women are trans women!  

I second this. Though, I will call you a woman, or your preferred pronouns because I respect you as a human and conscious being. I believe in transgender rights, and the rights of all groups. But, I also have some nuanced opinions and I am still learning.

Gender roles, words, labels, etc are a construct of our minds. 

I have reported mod bejapuskas for over stepping. Stating your opinion on gender or sexuality does not equate hating someone. I dislike seeing that form of moderation because it makes me afraid to post nuanced things.

Rules around segregation, laws, etc are an on going thing we all as a community need to work through and understand. We all have rights here.

When it comes to things like sports... theres more nuance there than simply hating someone and not wanting them to compete. In fact, sports are sort of silly that way in general because of a almost arbitrary nature of the categories we use.

I realize this is a difficult topic. But, we need to ensure we remain understanding that not everyone sees things the way you do. Just because I am not a Jew, or a muslim and I don't think they are absolutely true does not mean I hate anyone. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Thought Art

[bejapuskas]

4 hours ago, Roy said:

I'm not sure why @Arcangelo is getting points but @Christoph Werner wouldn't when they essentially said the same thing..... I don't think either of them should get points as it's not explicitly bigoted although Arc can be provocative and stubborn sometimes.

Anyways I think the problem is people are getting mixed up about sex/gender and their relation, and also because progressives are pushing so aggressively for inclusion we are expected to not only just call transwomen "women", but actually believe they are fully women. Which of course is a rather new and radical thing, and can even be offensive to some as it runs counter to their traditional frame of reality, that most billions of people are operating under by the way encase you forgot.

For the sake of social cohesion it makes sense to refer to them as women (or men/non-binary etc.) if they ask, but no amount of gaslighting or shaming is going to force people to change what they believe to be the case. What someone believes is a woman can vary heavily from case to case. In my personal opinion, a woman is a human that can give birth (as well as other traits). If you can't grow a birth a baby you simply do not meet my personal definition. That's the most important criteria to me, others are more subjective.

They are "women" in so far as how much they pass for a women by the standards that people set out for it, but the whole phrase "transwomen are women" is already a flawed and nonsensical on it's face, although I think most understand the spirit of it trying to be a slogan that promotes inclusivity.

By saying "transwomen" you are already by definition using language to refer to something distinct and seperate from "women", the meaning of which would be someone who was a man before, and we are to understand they are transitioning/transexual. Different words have different meanings, they both can't mean the same thing and we can't just rape peoples mind with relative concepts constantly and expect everyone to understand. You can't have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

They aren't the same thing, we are only pretending they are because society will run better if we do. Which is a good thing, and I support it fully. I hate that I even have to use this defense but I'm sure some people reading this might make some assumptions about me from this post - I have trans friends. I treat them with respect and call them whatever they ask and give them whatever emotional support they need. I've never misgendered on purpose and would never think too, because I'm not an asshole (or at least I like to think so).

However no amount of bullying or social ostracization is going to make me literally believe a transwoman is an actual woman, as I imagine it won't change most peoples minds. I'm sorry if that offends you but it's just the case.

We are going to need a new strategy to talk about this stuff, because as it stands the progressive modus operandi of cramming things down peoples throats and expecting them to swallow it is a pretty trash strategy, especially when it goes against their very basic sense making apparatus.

 

Trans women do not mind being called actual women, they are just called that I guess not to nullify the fact that they face different discrimination. But please call them women, girls, no need to add trans. It doesn't matter if you wanna date or fuck them, or if you think they pass. You I assume have the privilege that people do not tell you that your gender is invalid and build the whole infrastructure in a way to make your life more miserable. It is quite typical of people who are already privileged to say "my mind will never change, it is up to the oppressed to submit and keep licking my feet". That is devilry and close mindedness on your side. You bend over for once and change your mind and try to understand and empathize. Don't say things like "no amount of effort will make any difference". And don't say you are not transphobic after saying all this, because you are. And I am really disgusted by this. 

I am not giving these people points because I guess when it comes to bathrooms, prisons etc. people have traumas. I also have sexual harrassment trauma, grooming trauma, a lot of stuff where people crossed my boundaries, cis men and cis women both. Trans people too I guess, maybe, I don't remember now. I don't wanna make them feel bad and give them warning for something that could potentially be a big trigger for them. I respect that people could have this.

[bejapuskas]

@Thought Art  Transphobia is literally banned here. You cannot support it on this forum, although as you see, even certain moderators here do. I advocated for cis women's safety here so much. When somebody said something incelish etc., I really put a lot of effort into this, I think I made the correct choice. I think this forum should be moving in a direction when it accepts more accepting opinions. I don't think all opinions are equally good and should be accepted. I face discrimination on this forum like every time I speak, because I call people out. It's no fun, but I keep doing it. But I guess if you guys don't like me here, because of your close mindedness, maybe I will just leave and spend my time doing something better that makes more sense. 

[Bobby_2021]

 

5 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

So that cisgender men can oppress them, right

Umm wut? Gender is collectively and socially defined, which is why it's called a social construct.

But it's ok if you want to dismiss me.  

4 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

but ZenAlex, Yarco and Bobby_2021 feels transphobic to me.

I dunno man. Maybe I am just a disgusting fascist bigot. I understand. 

[Raptorsin7]

@bejapuskas It would be different if you were just arguing with opposing views, but the fact you're a mod and you give warning points for people who disagree with your ideology is problematic imo.

Aren't there better ways for you "help" than posting on this forum?

Imagine a mod who had the reverse ideological position as you and then started giving out warning points for anyone who expressed beliefs and opinions that opposed their ideology. How would this mod be treated?

Edited June 28, 2022 by Raptorsin7

[Dryas]

A women is someone who identifies with feminine traits more than masculine traits?

>50% Feminine traits = female
 

You could argue there are feminine men but I think they’re probably still more masculine than feminine overall. They could be 70M 30F when most men are 90M 10F. 

A 50/50 split would be non binary I’m thinking. 

I don’t really know, just throwing my thoughts. 

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm just asking for definitions

Dude you've baited me.

I got warning points because I tried to contemplate your question ? 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Ait, so 3 people are for the biological essentialist definition of woman. Anybody got a different definition?

Aye, i have some more. But i don't want to be banned

Basicly i believe there's an energetic difference aswell. The way the energy flows in a male body and female body is different. There are even practices disigned specificly for men and women slightly different because of it.

I base this perspective from what i learnt from mantak chia, tau malachi and sadhguru. I heard them all say few times that there are energetic differences about a male and female body.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Salvijus

[jimwell]

3 hours ago, Thought Art said:

I second this. Though, I will call you a woman, or your preferred pronouns because I respect you as a human and conscious being. I believe in transgender rights, and the rights of all groups. But, I also have some nuanced opinions and I am still learning.

Gender roles, words, labels, etc are a construct of our minds. 

I have reported mod bejapuskas for over stepping. Stating your opinion on gender or sexuality does not equate hating someone. I dislike seeing that form of moderation because it makes me afraid to post nuanced things.

Rules around segregation, laws, etc are an on going thing we all as a community need to work through and understand. We all have rights here.

When it comes to things like sports... theres more nuance there than simply hating someone and not wanting them to compete. In fact, sports are sort of silly that way in general because of a almost arbitrary nature of the categories we use.

I realize this is a difficult topic. But, we need to ensure we remain understanding that not everyone sees things the way you do. Just because I am not a Jew, or a muslim and I don't think they are absolutely true does not mean I hate anyone. 

This is an intelligent reply.

 

2 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

@Thought Art  Transphobia is literally banned here. You cannot support it on this forum, although as you see, even certain moderators here do

They are not transphobic. They accept transgender people or at least indifferent to them. And their opinions are nuanced. It doesn't mean they hate or want to persecute transgender people.

 

2 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

I face discrimination on this forum like every time I speak, because I call people out. It's no fun, but I keep doing it. But I guess if you guys don't like me here, because of your close mindedness, maybe I will just leave and spend my time doing something better that makes more sense. 

You are too needlessly sensitive. 

There are 3 reactions or feelings towards LGBTQ+ people; support or approval, indifference or tolerance, and hate or disapproval.

As long as it's not hate (transphobic), it's good enough. You can't expect all people to show support to LGBTQ people. And it's wrong to label indifference as transphobic.

I am indifferent to ALS people, to be honest. Many people support ALS sufferers. I'm not one of the supporters. But it doesn't mean I'm ALS-phobic. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by jimwell

[Carl-Richard]

47 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Aye, i have some more. But i don't want to be banned

Ah, I already made my point though. We'll try to get this moderation issue straight among the mod team.

[Salvijus]

33 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Did you know that transgenderism is one of the most positive signs that mankind is evolving towards love? Even though many will tell you otherwise, I am sure that this is the case. Generally speaking, everybody is entitled to their opinion. Everybody is not entitled to offend others though. Not only this, but we must be vigilant to protect the feelings of the vulnerable in our communities. Everybody knows that many today have been wounded by the dominance of conservative authoritarianism and fascism. Rarely is this fully understood, because people fail to look at the first causes which letter this social death sentence. After all, transphobia is deeply rooted in the bigotry of traditional social structures. To solve this problem, we must strike it at the root. Everybody should have a place in this world.

 

I agree. Everybody has to be accepted and loved. But not every action has to be approved as an action of wisdom. We love our children but we don't approve their actions when they brake everything around. 

The question becomes is changing your gender a wise thing to do? I actually don't know. I haven't seen a good fully convincing argument on either side either. I think it's an open question yet to be explored deeper and further to reach some satisfying conclusion. (At least for me)

Edited June 28, 2022 by Salvijus

[SgtPepper]

 

3 hours ago, Dryas said:

A women is someone who identifies with feminine traits more than masculine traits?

>50% Feminine traits = female
 

You could argue there are feminine men but I think they’re probably still more masculine than feminine overall. They could be 70M 30F when most men are 90M 10F. 

A 50/50 split would be non binary I’m thinking. 

I don’t really know, just throwing my thoughts. 

The problem with that definition is, it is sexist to say women like to grow their hair long and treat it to be pretty. Women can act however they want, there is no box that women fit in. 

Women can still be women, without following traditional gender norms.

-----

I am not transphobic, I don't care, if I meet a transgender woman or transgender man, I will respect their pronouns and just treat them like human beings, its whatever. But I do make a personal distinction in my mind between a transgender women and a biological women. I don't think the difference is arbitrary at all, it's very real, and obvious especially when you take genitals and hormones into account to me. It appears trans folk also know it's not arbitrary which is why they get hormone treatment, surgery, and change their whole appearance.

I don't understand how trans women = women aligns with love and truth. 

Generally what aligns with love and truth is accepting who you are and how you are born to me. 

And I am very open minded person, but I just don't see it. I have compassion for gender dysphoria and I hope trans folk get what they need for peace.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by SgtPepper