WokeBloke

Can something/someone create itself?

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@thibault And how does your view that there is no past have anything to do with truth?

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1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

@thibault And how does your view that there is no past have anything to do with truth?

My view is not that there is no past.

Your view is that there is a past.

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@thibault My view is that things happened before now (such as writing this post). How is this wrong?

Edited by WokeBloke

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15 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

@thibault My view is that things happened before now. How is this wrong?

It is not right, it is not wrong. It is an illusion.

You are pretending things happened before now because you like it. In reality, there are ways in which there is a past and ways in which there isn't. The definition of past is limited. But it is good enough to give you a survival advantage.

Which parts of your life would crumble without a conception of "things happened before now" ?

What I'm pointing at is not whether or not there is a past, that is entirely irrelevant. However notice that when you ask the question, you ignore the most serious implications of truth seeking. You assert there is a past when in fact you are closed to the possibility that there is none, what is the point of asking the question if you are only ready to hear one of the two possible answers?

EDIT: If you need some edge cases to challenge your definition of "past", try defining the "past" in a black hole.

Edited by thibault

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@thibault The claim things happened before now is either true or false. So it must either be right or wrong. I'm willing to consider the claim that nothing happened before now but I think that claim is false and has no basis in reality. Unless someone can give a solid argument I retain my position that things happened before now.

 

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1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

@thibault The claim things happened before now is either true or false. So it must either be right or wrong. I'm willing to consider the claim that nothing happened before now but I think that claim is false and has no basis in reality. Unless someone can give a solid argument I retain my position that things happened before now.

What about the possibility that reality is more subtle?

Take only the word "before" from your post. Let's say your bother left on a journey to a super-massive planet with very high gravity. Being in a high gravitational field increases the passage of time. In this case let's say 10 times faster. Do you think you and your brother would have a different understanding of the word "before" in those circumstances?

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not this again


You are what you currently desire. ❤️

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6 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

In other words can something begin it's own existence or is this impossible?

Why or why not?

 

@WokeBloke In the traditional sense of the word "creation", there is a creator which is seperate from the created, and the creator creates the created. In reality, creator=creation. Which means, God (creation) creates itself.

However, God is existence, existence didn't begin, it's the source of beginnings and endings.

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@WokeBloke

You are making mistake in how you pursue truth. As you said you don't know if it is true or not therefore you should remain neutral standpoint over making assumption. Learn to appreciate the beauty of not knowing. Be man and say that you don't know if past happened or not. That's all I am asking you to do. 


Who told you that "others" are real?

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9 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

@thibault My view is that things happened before now (such as writing this post). How is this wrong?

Of course it might be true. I agree that it is btw (albeit you obviously wrote it in the same """"now"""" when you did write it). But you can't actually prove this at all. There is no way at all to know that everything before now is a false memory...

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@RMQualtrough@WokeBloke

I've referenced this elsewhere on the forum, but it's a relatively mainstream view now that time is illusory (see Carlo Rovelli) 

In quantum mechanics, causality can be shown to run backwards. The past is restructured according to measurements taken in the present. (See John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser). This moves the ultimate locus of causality to the present moment alone.

So, the present moment alone holds all causality and all metaphysical glue for both the apparent future and the apparent past. Assuming you're an idealist - or better yet an acosmist - you will already be quite comfortable with the idea that all measurements and observations are ultimately made of thoughts, since they must be processed by thought to qualitatively exist. 

Watch this and see how "billions of years" of apparent history can be apparently altered / don't become "real" until they are measured (or "thought up") in the present moment:

Quick thought experiment: How much "past" actually is there? Think of your own autobiographical past and you'll realise that it's a soup of fragmented, low-resolution memories. If you've kept a diary over the years then you may remember a little more. How much of the future can you imagine? Is the future clearer in your mind's eye? Why / why not?

Could it be because both are imaginary?

Edited by axiom

Apparently.

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1 hour ago, Kksd74628 said:

@WokeBloke

You are making mistake in how you pursue truth. As you said you don't know if it is true or not therefore you should remain neutral standpoint over making assumption. Learn to appreciate the beauty of not knowing. Be man and say that you don't know if past happened or not. That's all I am asking you to do. 

We can throw human memory out the window since it may be false. This thread was opened 14 hours before this post was written. There was 14 hours worth of experience in between these two moments. How can you deny that?

Edited by WokeBloke

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Just now, WokeBloke said:

We can throw human memory out the window since it may be false. This thread was opened 14 hours before this post was written. There is 14 hours worth of experience in between these two moments. How can you deny that?

You are confusing the game architecture with reality. As a character in a story, of course time appears to exist. Time is one of the most compelling illusions going. It can't be experientially denied by a character.


Apparently.

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10 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

@thibault The claim things happened before now is either true or false. So it must either be right or wrong. I'm willing to consider the claim that nothing happened before now but I think that claim is false and has no basis in reality. Unless someone can give a solid argument I retain my position that things happened before now.

 

Let me ask you a question....if you went to sleep right now and things happened in your dream. Would you view the things that happened in your dream as real?


The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

Your ACTIONS REVEAL how you REALLY FEEL. Want TRUTH? Observe and ADMIT, do the OPPOSITE of what you usually do which is observe and DENY. - Razard86

Think about it.....Leo gave the best definition of the truth I ever heard...."The truth is what is..." so if that is the truth.... YOUR ACTIONS IN THE PRESENT ARE THE TRUTH!! It's what's happening....do you like what you see? Can you accept it? You are just a SENTIENT MIRROR, OBSERVING ITS REFLECTION..... can you accept what appears? -Razard86

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1 hour ago, WokeBloke said:

We can throw human memory out the window since it may be false. This thread was opened 14 hours before this post was written. There was 14 hours worth of experience in between these two moments. How can you deny that?

To your brother who went to the high gravity planet, there is 140 hours of experience in between these two moments.

The fact that you insist on this or that being "true"/"undeniable" reveals your fear of observing reality as it is and your need to conceptualize it to reassure yourself. Accept that the past and future are concepts, you have never been in the past or future, only ever the present, so how can you be so sure that they exist? Take DMT and contemplate the past, I'm sure you will come back with a much different understanding of what it is.

Edited by thibault

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@WokeBloke

This conversation is running circles and may most likely be closed, because too much mental masturbation which is not progressing the situation. Just accept that you don't know if past happened or not and after that stop assuming some answer over another and live in the unknow. 


Who told you that "others" are real?

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4 hours ago, axiom said:

@RMQualtrough@WokeBloke

I've referenced this elsewhere on the forum, but it's a relatively mainstream view now that time is illusory (see Carlo Rovelli) 

In quantum mechanics, causality can be shown to run backwards. The past is restructured according to measurements taken in the present. (See John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser). This moves the ultimate locus of causality to the present moment alone.

So, the present moment alone holds all causality and all metaphysical glue for both the apparent future and the apparent past. Assuming you're an idealist - or better yet an acosmist - you will already be quite comfortable with the idea that all measurements and observations are ultimately made of thoughts, since they must be processed by thought to qualitatively exist. 

Watch this and see how "billions of years" of apparent history can be apparently altered / don't become "real" until they are measured (or "thought up") in the present moment:

Quick thought experiment: How much "past" actually is there? Think of your own autobiographical past and you'll realise that it's a soup of fragmented, low-resolution memories. If you've kept a diary over the years then you may remember a little more. How much of the future can you imagine? Is the future clearer in your mind's eye? Why / why not?

Could it be because both are imaginary?

I have my own theories on the same matter of course, I do have slightly troubling thoughts when doing something stressful like exercise that an "instance" of me as it were, is forever sweating like a mofo out of breath on the goddamn StairMaster for eternity.

I don't know enough about quantum mechanics but I suspect the quantum eraser thing, where the past is apparently altered by a decision made later, is because every event in the universe from beginning to end already exists.

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@RMQualtrough if it already exists it couldn’t be shown to be alterable by measurements taken now… but it can. That’s the shocking thing about the Quantum Eraser.

The now is the source of all. It is the origin. 

Edited by axiom

Apparently.

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4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Let me ask you a question....if you went to sleep right now and things happened in your dream. Would you view the things that happened in your dream as real?

My dream really happened but it was based on unreal events is how I would view it.

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18 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

 

My dream really happened but it was based on unreal events is how I would view it.

What is an event? What is a real event?

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