Yali

Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?

42 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

The question contains the underling assumption that there is "something out there to be discovered". Anything we can imagine/invent/discover/create is consciousness. Patent laws can make this distinction, though, since it is useful somehow.

Edited by Fernanda

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Posted (edited)

On 23/05/2022 at 11:15 AM, Batman said:
On 23/05/2022 at 10:43 AM, JosephKnecht said:

Maybe the moment of discovery is the moment of invention. 

Maybe. :)

Why maybe? For sure. When you "discover" something, you are actually creating (inventing) a distinction of that thing. That distinction never existed in your experience until you created it. When it comes to the conceptual domain, where all forms of language reside, it is even more obvious that it is a distinction created by mind/intellect.

There is nothing 'for sure' in reality. Everything is maybe/apparently/seemingly/appearing-to-be/perhaps-this-way-perhaps-that-way/dependent on our state of consciousness or our paradigm or our beliefs/etc. The reality is that reality is constructed/imagined/illusory all the way up and all the way down with no topmost/bottommost/'ultimate'/'final'/'true' layer. Nothing is true = nothing is 'for sure' = every honest answer is a 'maybe'.

This not-for-sure-ness is the Buddha. The Buddha is the Dhamma. The Dhamma is what's not for sure. Whoever sees that things aren't for sure, sees for sure that that's the way they are. The way they are doesn't change into anything else. That's the way things are. That's what the Dhamma is like. And that's what the Buddha is like. If you see the Dhamma, you see the Buddha; if you see the Buddha, you see the Dhamma. If you know inconstancy, not-for-sure-ness, you'll let things go of your own accord. You won't grasp onto them.

There's no way we can guarantee for sure that this has to be this, or that has to be that, so the Buddha said to just put it down as "not for sure." No matter how much you like something, you have to know that it's not for sure. No matter how much you dislike something, you have to understand that it's not for sure. And these things really aren't for sure. Keep practicing until they're dhammas.

—Ajahn Chah (source: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/not_for_sure.html)

I hope this cleared things up or you find it useful in your contemplations, @Batman :)

Edited by softlyblossoming
hopefully made explanation more clear

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4 hours ago, softlyblossoming said:

There is nothing 'for sure' in reality. Everything is maybe/apparently/seemingly/appearing-to-be/perhaps-this-way-perhaps-that-way/dependent on our state of consciousness or our paradigm or our beliefs/etc. The reality is that reality is constructed/imagined/illusory all the way up and all the way down with no topmost/bottommost/'ultimate'/'final'/'true' layer. Nothing is true = nothing is 'for sure' = every honest answer is a 'maybe'.

Yea, which is why I said everything is an invention. 

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Haha, of course it was both. We know who discovered it, the question is, by whom was it invented? ;)

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Batman said:

Yea, which is why I said everything is an invention. 

Maybe you're not wrong. :)

...But maybe you're always wrong.

...But maybe there is no such thing as a right answer on a test without a question.

'Maybe' doesn't mean 'yes' or 'no', but it might.

Truth is not 'for sure', but maybe it is.

Maybe Truth is, maybe Truth isn't

Maybe everything is maybe.

Does a dog have Maybe-Nature? Does a dog have Invention-Nature? Maybe. :)

Edited by softlyblossoming
maybe i improved effectiveness of pointer

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Discovered through invention / invented through discovery. Although, it depends on your definitions. Generally equations don't preexist before humans make them, so invention seems like a more accurate term, unless aliens had already developed them.

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Posted (edited)

Invented, like mind itself.

Trees don't care. Human organs for example are what allow for ways of perceiving and making sense of sensory data. The senses themselves are inventions -- biological ones.

The only way that 1+1=2 is the mind interpreting reality in such a way as to make that possible. Who decided to take what's assumed to be an object and add it to another?

Reality is; we do things with it -- interpreting, perceiving, making sense, judging, etc. Before humans, math didn't exist. A human body was required to perceive, interpret, and make sense.

It's a tool or language.

Edited by UnbornTao

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Invented, like mind.

Trees don't care. Human organs for example are what allow for ways of perceiving and making sense of sensory data.

The only way that 1+1=2 is the mind interpreting reality in such a way as to make that possible. Who decided to take what's assumed to be an object and add it to another?

Reality is what it is. Before humans, math didn't exist.

It's a tool or language.

The Divine created a world in which "dead" matter self constructs into life forms, which eventually evolve into beings who can make the very statements you have just made. Think about that, the fact that all of this will happen just by itself, that this is the way the world was created. The fact that a mind can look and make predictions within the world is no accident. Your view of what reality is still has materialism attached to it. You are saying, so you still frame it that way.

Humans can invent math, and math can have existed for eternity. You are contracted within a box, but you cannot see the miracle. The miracle that math can describe reality. You say it's a tool or language, but you do not see the miracle in it, the impossibility of it. Once you would, you would recognize that this connection, between what you deem to be a tool, and what you deem to be the world, is ultimately mysterious. It is impossible, and it is full of intention.

Math is part of Infinity, and each and every part of Infinity is impossibility. This is why we can build machines like computers and satellites, it is because, it's not merely a tool. It's part of an interconnected, impossible expression of existence. It's Divinity, it's access to the manifoldedness of the Infinite.

Math is Eternal, as much as Redness is Eternal. And the connection between Math and what you call the World, or humans, is itself one of Infinite expressions of connectivity. Unless it is deemed otherwise.

 

Let go of the Duality between Idealism and Dualism, or Materialism. That Duality is holding you back.

Edited by Scholar

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8 hours ago, softlyblossoming said:

Maybe you're not wrong. :)

...But maybe you're always wrong.

...But maybe there is no such thing as a right answer on a test without a question.

'Maybe' doesn't mean 'yes' or 'no', but it might.

Truth is not 'for sure', but maybe it is.

Maybe Truth is, maybe Truth isn't

Maybe everything is maybe.

Does a dog have Maybe-Nature? Does a dog have Invention-Nature? Maybe. :)

Bro, you ok?

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Posted (edited)

Both. It is like asking "is the world real or imagination?". It is both real and imagination. When you discover something, you are both discovering and imagining discovering it. There is nothing outside of consciousness. Maths also is in consciousness. A creation of consciousness. And is consciousness. Strange loop. Mind. Yes. 

Edited by Vibroverse

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Posted (edited)

When i was 4 years old, my thoughts always told me. Anything that you create in your mind all the fantasies/ideas already exist. We're not advanced yet in consciousness to invent things, all the things/ideas are simply discovered.

Edited by Jowblob

Each person operates from his own level of consciousness/dimension and illusion, thus everything is possible from his own reality. Don't judge.  - " Jowblob "

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5 hours ago, Vibroverse said:

There is nothing outside of consciousness.

Nothing you can put your finger on.

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Posted (edited)

Math didn't exist until humans began interpreting reality, creating abstractions, etc. Math isn't existential. 

A human had to create it. Without a human mind to conceptualize, math doesn't exist.

Find the number 2 or +. Symbols themselves are inventions.

Where do you find math outside of the context and distinctions of mind?

Edited by UnbornTao

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You are God imagining that humans invented/discovered mathematics.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Invented. I don't even see how this is difficult. 

You don't see number under a rock. You impose abstractions on top of a rock.

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Posted (edited)

Watch this. Scott is tapping into something here beyond conscious awareness. He says himself that he has no idea how he is able to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgIICQvhqMc

What do you think is going on here?

 

Edited by axiom

Seeking out breadcrumbs scattered within the dream...

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Posted (edited)

On 26/05/2022 at 8:32 AM, Batman said:

Bro, you ok?

Yeah, but I could clearly get a lot better at giving pointing out instructions. :D

I'll try to explain it again and hopefully it will click for you. 

What you are doing when you think "Not maybe. For sure." is making a double-standard. You are saying to yourself that all truths are inventions, but not realising the full extent of the implications of what you've said. You see, if all truths are invented, then the truth that "all truths are invented", like all other truths, must also be invented! 

The mind is stuck on a loop -- it goes around and around claiming to have discovered all sorts of invented things to be true and all sorts of true things to have been invented, but it never awakens to Reality because it is trapped inside its loop and Reality isn't inside its loop.

So the point I'm trying to make is that nothing is certain, including the claim that nothing is certain. But that's a paradox, so upon hearing it, the mind reacts with confusion and disappointment because its nature is to seek things that are not paradoxes, things it can cling onto, things it can 'know' to be 'for sure' rather than 'maybe' because the mind cannot cling to a 'maybe'. The mind lies to itself by saying things like "the paradox is for sure" without understanding that the paradox itself is that the paradox cannot be for sure if the paradox was actually for sure. It's confusing because it's pointing towards a truth and the mind cannot know or cling to a truth!

If something was for sure, then it wouldn't be invented/illusory -- it would be real. But if everything  is invented, then that means -- nothing -- actual nothing -- is what is true. So the irony is that there is no real insight, just lies all the way down. Truth is just a word we use to describe delusion. You will never get Enlightened is the cosmic joke. Everything you ever wanted, but you don't get to enjoy it – that's enlightenment. If this is going over your head, don't worry -- it will eventually become strikingly obvious if you keep at the non-dual spirituality stuff! You're on the right track.

If it still hasn't clicked, maybe just read these other ways of saying it and it will, idk:

1. Is it that "all" discoveries are inventions or is it "all discoveries except this one" that are inventions? Only one statement can be true because "all, except" is by definition not "all".

2. If everything is an invention then saying "everything is an invention" would also have to be an invention. The end.

3. Ego vs No-Ego

   - Ego: All I know for sure is that all knowledge is invented.

   - No-Ego: All I know for sure is that all knowledge is invented, including the knowledge that I know for sure that all knowledge is invented, so I know nothing. 

4. And if I know nothing, then I cannot truly know that I know nothing, so maybe I do and maybe I don't. Maybe. xD

On 23/05/2022 at 11:15 AM, Batman said:
On 23/05/2022 at 10:43 AM, JosephKnecht said:

Maybe the moment of discovery is the moment of invention. 

Maybe. :)

Why maybe? For sure.

Andd uhh yeah that might be why man said "maybe" but idk im not him lol

Edited by softlyblossoming
make it make more sense

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