Cesco

Why is red above purple

110 posts in this topic

54 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

This is another value being promoted by the influencers of a modern complex society.  But even here, it has limited success since people still tend to form their own tribes in urban neighborhoods.   Tribes in the jungle keep the peace by being separate from each other, which is easier to do in a jungle.  They still may use the same river – a river would be like the Wal-Mart of a jungle.   A tribe doesn’t see the river as a resource so one tribe doesn’t try to control the river – like is commonly done by industrial societies.   So yes everyone is welcome at the jungle Walmart, i.e. river.

To use the river, you have to be in a tribe in the first place. You can't live on your own. Same with Walmart. You're living in society. So I can't use the river, but I can use Walmart.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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4 hours ago, Cesco said:

What exactly does this have to do with spiral dynamics. Your essentially comparing two different people from completely different environements with completely different skills. The native with a spear may be skilled with a spear, but thats only because hes forced to in the circumstances he lives in. The fat woman in walmart buying twinkies is higher on the pyramid because she was able to stop worrying about surviving, and evolve. The native thinks only about the survival of the tribe.

I am disputing the inference that some are drawing from spiral dynamics that higher stages of the spiral are more conscious than lower stages.  The fat woman is unconscious of the fact that she is killing herself with food.  This is unconscious behavior.   Someone who mistakes a movie for reality, who thinks he understands reality because he has seen a movie is unconscious.  In the jungle, this would be like mistaking a crocodile for a log.   In industrial society millions of people are sleepwalking through life and still survive.  If you sleepwalk in a jungle, you die.  Watching 8 hours of television a day is not evolving.  The tribes were about more than survival, they had shamanism and a rich cultural life. 


Vincit omnia Veritas.

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1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

I am disputing the inference that some are drawing from spiral dynamics that higher stages of the spiral are more conscious than lower stages.  The fat woman is unconscious of the fact that she is killing herself with food.  This is unconscious behavior.   Someone who mistakes a movie for reality, who thinks he understands reality because he has seen a movie is unconscious.  In the jungle, this would be like mistaking a crocodile for a log.   In industrial society millions of people are sleepwalking through life and still survive.  If you sleepwalk in a jungle, you die.  Watching 8 hours of television a day is not evolving.  The tribes were about more than survival, they had shamanism and a rich cultural life. 

Is a snake in the jungle more conscious than a fat lady at the candy store?


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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6 hours ago, Cesco said:

The fat woman in walmart buying twinkies is higher on the pyramid because she was able to stop worrying about surviving, and evolve.

She had the option to be lazy

 

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1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

I am disputing the inference that some are drawing from spiral dynamics that higher stages of the spiral are more conscious than lower stages.  The fat woman is unconscious of the fact that she is killing herself with food.  This is unconscious behavior.   Someone who mistakes a movie for reality, who thinks he understands reality because he has seen a movie is unconscious.  In the jungle, this would be like mistaking a crocodile for a log.   In industrial society millions of people are sleepwalking through life and still survive.  If you sleepwalk in a jungle, you die.  Watching 8 hours of television a day is not evolving.  The tribes were about more than survival, they had shamanism and a rich cultural life. 

Shamanism was the answer to any unanswered questions. Its very magical, which is what stage purple is about from what i now understand. If you take a caveman and put him in front of a tv, he will say its magic. If you take the twinkie woman from walmart in front of a tv, she will say its science. This is why she is higher on the model. An example of this magical and illogical thinking is the idea of dream catchers. They would make wooden circles full of string and say that if you slept next to it, it will catch your nightmares. From what ive gathered, red is higher than purple because it abandons shamanism, and magical thinking. If red is higher because of that general vague reason, (Theres other factors of course) then obviously orange being more advanced than red will be more advanced than purple.

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10 minutes ago, Human Mint said:

She had the option to be lazy

 

Because the society she lives in was able to go past survival mode. No?

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7 minutes ago, Cesco said:

Because the society she lives in was able to go past survival mode. No?

Yes yes, the comment popped in my head when reading yours. I'm getting more in touch with SD, with no much to add, but it's getting more interesting to read.

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11 hours ago, Fearey said:

Not only is it an inference, it's a factual statement.

What you're doing is akin to thinking your pet is stage Turquoise because they're always happy around you. It's nonsensical.

That requires proof.  Where is your evidence?


Vincit omnia Veritas.

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9 hours ago, Cesco said:

Shamanism was the answer to any unanswered questions. Its very magical, which is what stage purple is about from what i now understand. If you take a caveman and put him in front of a tv, he will say its magic. If you take the twinkie woman from walmart in front of a tv, she will say its science. This is why she is higher on the model. An example of this magical and illogical thinking is the idea of dream catchers. They would make wooden circles full of string and say that if you slept next to it, it will catch your nightmares. From what ive gathered, red is higher than purple because it abandons shamanism, and magical thinking. If red is higher because of that general vague reason, (Theres other factors of course) then obviously orange being more advanced than red will be more advanced than purple.

The comments I am reading here about stage purple sounds like the stereotype images of racist 1940s cartoons.  Like a figure with slanted eyes represents a Japanese man.  Or a native has a bone through his nose.   Is Spiral Dynamics really this shallow?  Is this a theory dreamed up in an ivory tower by theorists who have not actually had real contact with tribal people (who still exist on the planet)?

Edited by Jodistrict

Vincit omnia Veritas.

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On 2022-05-04 at 4:18 PM, thisintegrated said:


 

 

4 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

The comments I am reading here about stage purple sounds like the stereotype images of racist 1940s cartoons.  Like a figure with slanted eyes represents a Japanese man.  Or a native has a bone through his nose.   Is Spiral Dynamics really this shallow?  Is this a theory dreamed up in an ivory tower by theorists who have not actually had real contact with tribal people (who still exist on the planet)?

The “stereotype” you keep referring to and what I’m saying is not false. I have native blood in me I know how they thought. What I said is pretty accurate to what actually happened. They used to take their children and throw them in a forest to find out their spirit animal. And whatever interaction they had with an animal is their spirit animal. It may sound like I’m stereotyping, but it is what actually happened. Back to the point of this conversation, the woman in Walmart is apart of a society that grew past shamanism, and spirit animals, and all of this unpractical magical thinking. The reason you probably think I’m stereotyping is because of the way we sugar coat indigenous people because of how they were Mistreated a few centuries ago. But if you look past that event, the “stereotype” you believe I’m representing them as is actually accurate.

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4 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

The comments I am reading here about stage purple sounds like the stereotype images of racist 1940s cartoons.  Like a figure with slanted eyes represents a Japanese man.  Or a native has a bone through his nose.   Is Spiral Dynamics really this shallow?  Is this a theory dreamed up in an ivory tower by theorists who have not actually had real contact with tribal people (who still exist on the planet)?

Maybe read the book I don't know ? Watch Leo's videos on it at the very least ? I have no clue how to cure your cruel lack of education on this topic. You are walking Dunning–Kruger right now.

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@Jodistrict You're getting hung up on normative interpretations of the models through metrics like "progress", "harmony with nature" and "consciousness". This isn't necessary. You don't have to assert anything in advance about what development is (other than its basic phenomenal nature; change, growth etc.) in order to appreciate the descriptive and predictive utility of these models. Development isn't good or bad unless you say so.

Structural stage models merely choose a domain of study, e.g. cognition, and then they try to observe development through a lens of stages. What happens to be universal across these observations is the movement from simplicity to complexity, but that is simply a descriptive statement. Complexity isn't better than simplicity unless you say so. Complexity is arguably more messy and chaotic than simplicity, which could explain some of your reactions to it imo.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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You can invert the criteria that the model is based on then look at it again, and it will look upside down. Red will become below Purple and above Blue.


Foolish until proven other-wise ;)

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To answer more seriously, think of it like this: A tree doesn't grow without a soil. Purple is the soil for the trees of Red.

Then again,

Roses are red. Violets are blue.

Spiral Dynamics. I love you.


Foolish until proven other-wise ;)

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9 hours ago, Cesco said:

The “stereotype” you keep referring to and what I’m saying is not false. I have native blood in me I know how they thought. What I said is pretty accurate to what actually happened. They used to take their children and throw them in a forest to find out their spirit animal. And whatever interaction they had with an animal is their spirit animal. It may sound like I’m stereotyping, but it is what actually happened. Back to the point of this conversation, the woman in Walmart is apart of a society that grew past shamanism, and spirit animals, and all of this unpractical magical thinking. The reason you probably think I’m stereotyping is because of the way we sugar coat indigenous people because of how they were Mistreated a few centuries ago. But if you look past that event, the “stereotype” you believe I’m representing them as is actually accurate.

Purple is just a stage everyone goes through.  Purple has, literally, absolutely nothing to do with tribalism.  You should be able to remember yourself being purple as a child, yet you never lived in the jungle with a tribe, a shaman, tigers, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong).

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9 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Purple is just a stage everyone goes through.  Purple has, literally, absolutely nothing to do with tribalism.  You should be able to remember yourself being purple as a child, yet you never lived in the jungle with a tribe, a shaman, tigers, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong).

This makes a-lot of sense to me. I could remember having magical thinking when i was a few years old only 12 years ago. But could people skip stages if they are born in a family that is extremely integrated into one spiral stage. Pun intended

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35 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Purple is just a stage everyone goes through.  Purple has, literally, absolutely nothing to do with tribalism.  You should be able to remember yourself being purple as a child, yet you never lived in the jungle with a tribe, a shaman, tigers, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong).

The collective manifestation of Purple, untouched by the modern world, is a tribal society.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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16 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The collective manifestation of Purple, untouched by the modern world, is a tribal society.

I can remember magical-thinking in my childhood, but what would mirror tribalism in a child mindset?  

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13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The collective manifestation of Purple, untouched by the modern world, is a tribal society.

Were the vikings and similar european communities tribal??

49 minutes ago, Cesco said:

This makes a-lot of sense to me. I could remember having magical thinking when i was a few years old only 12 years ago. But could people skip stages if they are born in a family that is extremely integrated into one spiral stage. Pun intended

No.  Though they may take on some of the traits of the stage the family's at.

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"At the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit.  And that center is really everywhere.  It is within each of us."

    -  Black Elk

Black Elk was a medicine man and warrior of the Oglala Lakota people.  He was certainly tribal and grew up stage purple. The above quote could be seen as expressing non dualism.  These people were highly conscious.   Spiral Dynamics is leaving out too much reality and creating a cartoonish stereotype to maintain the consistency of their model. 

https://discoveringnonduality.com/2019/01/14/black-elk-and-the-center-of-all-of-us/

 


Vincit omnia Veritas.

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