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Question about NDEs

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Is near death experiences a decent evidence that consciousness survives physical death ?

And why does all people who experienced an NDE report the same thing ? The long tunnel with the bright white light at the end , and seeing their body from above as if they astral projected ?

 

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"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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I don’t consider it good evidence although I personally believe that consciousness continues after death. 
 

Saying all NDEs report a white light is also overstating things a bit. Not everyone reports that. 


“Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near — a disciple of mine sees all consciousness as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’” - the Tathāgata

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13 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

 

13 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

although I personally believe that consciousness continues after death. 

Based on what? 

 

 

Edited by Someone here

"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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5 hours ago, Someone here said:

Based on what? 

 

 

The simple fact that consciousness is here and nonexistence is incompatible with existence. Nonexistence doesn’t somehow take up space that keeps existence from being there. This is pretty clear after cessation for me. 
 

If something came from nothing, why would nothing not produce something again after going back to nothing? 
 

If something came from something, why would it go to nothing and never come back to something again? 
 

I don’t really have a stance on any of the content of consciousness as it is in this life continuing or not continuing, but it seems most probable that consciousness would return in some form at some point. 
 

All of the above is still speaking in the relative sense. In the absolute sense, there’s just what is right now and nothing else. 


“Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near — a disciple of mine sees all consciousness as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’” - the Tathāgata

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55 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

The simple fact that consciousness is here and nonexistence is incompatible with existence. Nonexistence doesn’t somehow take up space that keeps existence from being there. This is pretty clear after cessation for me. 
 

If something came from nothing, why would nothing not produce something again after going back to nothing? 
 

If something came from something, why would it go to nothing and never come back to something again? 
 

I don’t really have a stance on any of the content of consciousness as it is in this life continuing or not continuing, but it seems most probable that consciousness would return in some form at some point. 
 

All of the above is still speaking in the relative sense. In the absolute sense, there’s just what is right now and nothing else. 

The hypothesis that the brain creates consciousness, has vastly more evidence for it than the hypothesis that consciousness creates the brain. Damage to the fusiform gyrus of the temporal lobe, for example, causes face blindness, and stimulation of this same area causes people to see faces spontaneously

I know The idea that subjective experience is a result of electrochemical activity remains a hypothesis.

But I think that any proposition about what happens to consciousness after death is nothing but mere speculation.  Since no one from the dawn of time came back from death to tell us what awaits us on the other side .

I appreciate your perspective though ? 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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1 hour ago, Someone here said:

The hypothesis that the brain creates consciousness, has vastly more evidence for it than the hypothesis that consciousness creates the brain. Damage to the fusiform gyrus of the temporal lobe, for example, causes face blindness, and stimulation of this same area causes people to see faces spontaneously

I know The idea that subjective experience is a result of electrochemical activity remains a hypothesis.

But I think that any proposition about what happens to consciousness after death is nothing but mere speculation.  Since no one from the dawn of time came back from death to tell us what awaits us on the other side .

I appreciate your perspective though ? 

This kinda misses the point though. There were no brains at one point in this line of thinking. Eventually, brains were created, and consciousness emerged in this model. What stops that from happening again? 
 

This is the same as all of the things I brought up but with some added steps. I don’t see it as fundamentally different. 


“Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near — a disciple of mine sees all consciousness as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’” - the Tathāgata

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14 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

This kinda misses the point though. There were no brains at one point in this line of thinking. Eventually, brains were created, and consciousness emerged in this model. What stops that from happening again? 
 

This is the same as all of the things I brought up but with some added steps. I don’t see it as fundamentally different. 

Nothing stops that from happening again. But the question is what guarantees that it will in fact happen again? 

Just because it happend once doesn't deductivly conclude another occurrence. What is your argument here based on ? Mere probability? 

And by the way..We are left wondering. As far as I can tell, all the evidence points in the direction of brains causing mind, but no evidence indicates reverse causality. This whole line of reasoning, in fact, seems to be based on something akin to a God of the gaps argument, where physicalist gaps are filled with nonphysicalist agents, be they omniscient deities or conscious agents.

No one denies that consciousness is a hard problem. But before we reify consciousness to the level of an independent agency capable of creating its own reality, let's give the hypotheses we do have for how brains create mind more time. Because we know for a fact that measurable consciousness dies when the brain dies, until proved otherwise, the default hypothesis must be that brains cause consciousness.

I am, therefore I think.


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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53 minutes ago, Michael Jackson said:

Bro death doesn't exist. Isn't it obvious? Consciousness is eternal...

How do you know ? You will have to elaborate if you want me to take you seriously.

What happens if you jump off a cliff or shoot yourself in the head? 

Are you denying that some day in the future your body will simply stop functioning in the way which we call death? 

Edited by Someone here

"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I don't understand, really. If I think about it, all this has a strange flavor, like false. the senses are strange, the language, the incessant thought. it's totally madness. I want to get out of this strange madness, but it seems impossible ?

Totally relatable.  You are not alone bro .rest assured that everyone are suffering from the same existential dilemmas. But all they do is distract themselves and run away from questioning truth .


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Totally relatable.  You are not alone bro .rest assured that everyone are suffering from the same existential dilemmas. But all they do is distract themselves and run away from questioning truth .

I deleted it because immediately after writing it my feeling was the opposite. I've been in a lonely place for a week doing lonely work and the mind loses solidity, which is interesting. I really wish it would disintegrate completely, but it seems impossible, unless you're doing psychedelics all the time. the mind tends to structure, to cling to what it knows

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2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I deleted it because immediately after writing it my feeling was the opposite. I've been in a lonely place for a week doing lonely work and the mind loses solidity, which is interesting. I really wish it would disintegrate completely, but it seems impossible, unless:) you're doing psychedelics all the time. the mind tends to structure, to cling to what it knows

It's ok .perhaps you're going through the dark night of the Soul.  Perhaps take a break from doing spiritual work and just rest in the moment.  Lay off the psychedelics and  the mental gymnastics for a while and just focus on being present, breathing, simplicity etc


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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13 hours ago, Someone here said:

What happens if you jump off a cliff or shoot yourself in the head? 

@Someone here All that would happen is... LOVE!. And you would realize that you were in a dream, dreaming you are a human creature<3

13 hours ago, Someone here said:

Are you denying that some day in the future your body will simply stop functioning in the way which we call death? 

My claim is that you are dreaming:) And as you know, when you die in a dream, the dreamer of the dream will be unaffected.

 

Edited by Michael Jackson

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@Someone here You go from everything is God and what not to being a full on materialists and so it goes week in and week out for you


Let thy speech be better then silence, or be silent.

- Pseudo-dionysius 

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@Someone here If you actually want to be scientific, you find that, there is zero evidence, that consciousness is produced by the brain. 

All you have is correlation between parts of the brain functioning/malfunctioning in correlation to ordinary/non-ordinary consciousness. 

Conflating correlation with causality is not scientific. Nor is it evidence of any kind. In contrast to that, you have 100% proof that your consciousness exists, and contains all the stuff like brains, science and what not. 

So maybe you keep yourself from mental masturbation, and do the actual work. Find truth by yourself. 

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Testimonies from NDEs and mystical experiences on powerful psychedelics converge. Many people see the infamous white light on 5-Meo (I did too). Is there a record of someone who had a NDE and a psychedelic breakthrough to tell us if there are similarities in the experience?

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1 hour ago, Adamq8 said:

@Someone here You go from everything is God and what not to being a full on materialists and so it goes week in and week out for you

Lol .sorry about that . I'm a bit confused. I don't wanna confuse you guys with me .

But isn't that how do we find truth ? It's a journey of trial and error. There is alot of set back and faulty assumptions to be held  before arriving  to the truth. 

I'm very flexible and I'm able to jump between different paradigms. If you find that uncomfortable then just stick to your paradigm and don't let my mental masturbation annoy you:)


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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17 hours ago, Someone here said:

The hypothesis that the brain creates consciousness, has vastly more evidence for it than the hypothesis that consciousness creates the brain. Damage to the fusiform gyrus of the temporal lobe, for example, causes face blindness, and stimulation of this same area causes people to see faces spontaneously.

Correlation between forms disproves the formless? How?


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

Correlation between forms disproves the formless? How?

Where did I say or imply that?


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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8 hours ago, Someone here said:

Where did I say or imply that?

I showed how it's inconsistent from the perspective of idealism.

You said that a sense perception like the brain (form) correlates with other sense perceptions like experiences of faces (form), thus the brain creates consciousness (which is the perceptual+non-perceptual reality, or form+formlessness).

Form correlates with form, which creates form and formlessness? ?


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

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