thisintegrated

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Posted (edited)

@thisintegrated hahaha man your responses are always the best. I found your conversation with India hilarious but also strategically flawed, with needless suffering.

Explain this analogy to me: you're walking down the road and there's baby ducks in the way, because of your yellow loving nature you keep walking crushing one of the ducks under your feet and you tell yourself "well this is a potential learning opportunity for them, and the reason I didn't stop is out of love. i'm so fucking woke, but I'd only do this on this road because this road I have high expectations for, also all of you green fuckers over there this is how empathy works"

Does this perfectly represent your position? Do you agree? :D

Edited by integral

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, integral said:

@thisintegrated hahaha man your responses are always the best. I found your conversation with India hilarious but also strategically flawed, with needless suffering.

Explain this analogy to me: you're walking down the road and there's baby ducks in the way, because of your yellow loving nature you keep walking crushing one of the ducks under your feet and you tell yourself "well this is a potential learning opportunity for them, and the reason I didn't stop is out of love. i'm so fucking woke, but I'd only do this on this road because this road I have high expectations for."

Does this perfectly represent your position? Do you agree? :D

🤦🏻

The ducks aren't messing up the forum tho.  I treat ducks like ducks.  I treat Tier 2 forum members like Tier 2 forum members.  Tier 1s can go duck themselves.  

Edited by thisintegrated

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Posted (edited)

20 hours ago, thisintegrated said:
Quote

The things that you wroth like "your ex-bfs come and complain to me about you" was just ridiculously un-empathetic. It doesn't matter if it was true and funny. It was said by someone she didnt want to hear it from, it was not your place or the right time to say it.

She's literally lied about her age, occupation, and various other things.  Lying is inexcusable.  She's manipulating all the simps on the forum and it's sickening.  From what I've heard she's had several dozen online BFs on this forum alone.  It's not just that she's an unstable/immoral/Purple person.  She's likely got some far more severe mental illnesses.  Putting "BPD/ADHD/Autism/Depression" as her signature is a red herring, imo.  Like burying a dog over a dead body so anyone who starts digging may simply stop after finding the dog.

Yes thats the beauty of her and everyone has there unique bundle. Do you see the beauty in it?

Also im not sure why who she is matters? Why is she not deserving to be loved by you or spoken to with effort? Dont the people that have the most issue need love the most? 

I know your pointing these things out non-judgmentally doe its hard to tell as the words "inexcusable and sickening" where used, ill take it as just a statement, but if you then take these points and justify your actions, "well that guys a fool so i don't care to put any effort" then aren't you crossing the line into judgment? The mark of Tier 2 is to be non-judgmental? 

Is this a ENTP Fi blind spot? That your blind to some of your values still being in Tier 1? Every ENTP I've encountered had the most twisted immoral stories that they would tell while laughing. I'm not sure how the ENTP Fi blind stop works could you explain it? I feel that my Fi is being miss-categorized as Tier 1 green moralizing do to a your unconscious biases and preferences. That the Tier 2 you imagine is ENTP flavored. 

Ken Wilber describes it as it "Hurts More, Bothers You Less".

Edited by integral

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, integral said:

If i choose to be carful around people its because i choose to take responsibility for there wellbeing.

@thisintegrated Why does tier 2 not take responsibility? 

14 hours ago, integral said:
Quote

Is tough love a blue shadow? 

Acceptance / going with the flow / flowing freely through life / etc. are Yellow/Turquoise things, actually. 

A healthy ego won't be bothered by much.  It can hear/experience anything and remain unaffected.  This is life.  You can't escape it.  If I go out of my way to not trigger people, life's gonna trigger them one way or another anyway.  You think you're being "nice" by doing all you can to not trigger people, but actually that's controlling/egoistic behavior.  You want to receive other people's favor, their love and positive emotions.  You're not yet at the level where you can feel happy independently, and so it's important for you that others are happy, as that makes you happy.  If you upset someone, then, without emotional maturity, you will be affected by them.  So of course you try to fool yourself into thinking that it's good to walk on eggshells.  It enables your own emotional dependence on others.  

What kind of definition of tough love is this? I don't think this is about interpretation, different words need to be used here?

Tough love is your personal preference. There is also non-attached Strategic love? High quality communication love? Its not about bending over for them and getting my emotional drug. Its a chess move, its the best move in the position if the goal is quality teaching, if the goal is nurturing the whole system. 

Edited by integral

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3 hours ago, integral said:

Why does tier 2 not take responsibility? 

This is most likely a difference in belief about personal relationships (tough love vs. sensitivity), not necessarily a difference in overarching values/worldview.


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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9 hours ago, integral said:

Yes thats the beauty of her and everyone has there unique bundle. Do you see the beauty in it?

How is that the beauty of her?  Selfishness/self-centredness/naiveness/arrogance/etc. aren't positive qualities.  They cause suffering for her and those around her.  Sure, I can see the beauty in even this, but in general those things are problems.

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

Also im not sure why who she is matters? Why is she not deserving to be loved by you or spoken to with effort? Dont the people that have the most issue need love the most? 

Why would you want anything to do with a liar?  You're not an ENTP.  I could enjoy talking to killers/psychopaths/etc. as I know how to make anything fun/interesting for myself.  But you'd just end up getting hurt.

Nothing is isolated.  If a person lies about little things, then being lied to about little things is the least of the problems you'll encounter with them.

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

I know your pointing these things out non-judgmentally doe its hard to tell as the words "inexcusable and sickening" where used, ill take it as just a statement

I just use whatever words fit or get a point across best.  Doesn't say anything about my personal perspective on things.  I couldn't even communicate my own perspectives properly if I wanted to.  My perspectives are just probabilities and fragments of hundreds of other people's perspectives.  I don't identify with any single concrete thing.

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

but if you then take these points and justify your actions, "well that guys a fool so i don't care to put any effort" then aren't you crossing the line into judgment? The mark of Tier 2 is to be non-judgmental? 

If you said that quote, then you likely would be judgemental.

But anyway, you're misunderstanding my motivation for treating Tier 2 forum members like TIer 2s.  I've already explained this.

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

Is this a ENTP Fi blind spot? That your blind to some of your values still being in Tier 1?

My values are Yellow and Turquoise.  Fi blindspot means I don't focus on my Tier 2 values while around Tier 1s.  If I'm around a Blue, I start temporarily valuing Orange as I'm basing my values off of what's "progressive" for Blues.  My own values don't even come into the picture as I'm focusing on what's best for them.

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

Every ENTP I've encountered had the most twisted immoral stories that they would tell while laughing. I'm not sure how the ENTP Fi blind stop works could you explain it?

lol, how Green can a man be🤦🏻🤦🏻

"Won't someone think of the children?!" vibes

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

I feel that my Fi is being miss-categorized as Tier 1 green moralizing do to a your unconscious biases and preferences. That the Tier 2 you imagine is ENTP flavored. 

No.  I'm highly sensitive to this stuff.  You're just Green.

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

Ken Wilber describes it as it "Hurts More, Bothers You Less".

Yeah I agree with him on that.

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

@thisintegrated Why does tier 2 not take responsibility? 

Well it depends.  Yellow or Turquoise?  Yellow tries to take responsibility, but is aware of its limits and isn't arrogant enough to, for example, look down on non-vegans.  As for Turquoise, it depends on the personality and how deep in Turquoise they are.  It's the longest stage of them all.  But what makes Turquoise different is that it's aware of the imaginary nature of reality, and the illusion just starts breaking down.  Reality can't fully contain Turquoise.  What would Turquoise "take responsibility" for?  Anything you could take responsibility for would be imaginary.

 

9 hours ago, integral said:

Tough love is your personal preference. There is also non-attached Strategic love? High quality communication love? Its not about bending over for them and getting my emotional drug. Its a chess move, its the best move in the position if the goal is quality teaching, if the goal is nurturing the whole system. 

Who is Turquoise teaching?  Its own dream characters?  There is no one to teach.  It's all about having fun, and having fun discussions.  That's what the human enjoys, and so that's what you do.  Different personalities like different things, and different teachers will have different styles of teaching.  The teaching itself is pointless and doesn't even matter, but you do whatever the human does, even if it's pointless.  All of existence is pointless, but it's all there is so that's what you experience.

But that's probably just confused you more🤦🏻

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On 19.7.2022 at 3:35 PM, integral said:

There was still no benefit with the "tough love" strategy. While that was happening she was commenting on her journal where she said she had hurt her hand punching something. How did it benefit her to attack her from her perspective? its a poor strategy.

Maybe a better framing is that it depends on your values (because establishing an absolute definition of benefit would be pretty tedious): either you value tough love and the potential benefit that can come out of that, or you value sensitivity and the potential benefit that can come out of that. I just intuitively gravitate towards sensitivity, maybe because of my moderator role as a facilitator, which often makes me focus on short-term social harmony over potential long-term psychological growth. Maybe tough love is a better strategy than sensitivity in the long-term (or maybe not).


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Maybe a better framing is that it depends on your values (because establishing an absolute definition of benefit would be pretty tedious): either you value tough love and the potential benefit that can come out of that, or you value sensitivity and the potential benefit that can come out of that. I just intuitively gravitate towards sensitivity, maybe because of my moderator role as a facilitator, which often makes me focus on short-term social harmony over potential long-term psychological growth. Maybe tough love is a better strategy than sensitivity in the long-term (or maybe not).

Pros and cons.  But as it ultimately doesn't matter, just do whatever you want.  Again, this only becomes obvious at Tier 2.

If you act nice, then that's a much, muuuuuuuuuch bigger problem than just being a dick and learning from the consequences of being your authentic self.

 

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Judging other's moral behaviour is actually stage blue. About tough love. Tough love should only be shown by a person who has a deep understanding of the other person. Have you communicated with this person that you are showing your tough love to? If not and if your strategy is only causing them further hurt and trigger,then it's pointless and unproductive and might actually cause more harm than good. Use the tough love approach with someone who complies with it and is productively responding to your tough love. If a person is getting triggered and if you know that they're sensitive, then use the empathetic approach. 2 cents.

 

A lot of what you're doing is just judgement, projection, assumption.


Do not engage. Do not engage. Do not engage black pill. I need to write Dear Berrylee in my signature.Gaurzeugus.

 

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@thisintegrated I need some expert MBTI consultation (or I just want to share this idea of mine xD):

Back when I studied biology, I really disliked zoology. We had to memorize different species that for me seemed completely arbitrary, because there was no underlying logic behind why those exact species were important. From the perspective of a student, they were just randomly chosen examples of a group. To me, the only fascinating thing about zoology was to get a detailed look on how life evolved from lower to higher complexity.

On that note, I really liked evolutionary biology. So I thought that maybe zoology is kind of biology for sensors, while evolutionary biology is biology for intuitives. In zoology, you have to mainly memorize a large list of specific animals based on things like physical characteristics. However, in evolutionary biology, you have to learn the general abstract principles behind how life evolves. I just thought this was interesting :D


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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Posted (edited)

Quote

Back when I studied biology, I really disliked zoology. We had to memorize different species that for me seemed completely arbitrary, because there was no underlying logic behind why those exact species were important. From the perspective of a student, they were just randomly chosen examples of a group. To me, the only fascinating thing about zoology was to get a detailed look on how life evolved from lower to higher complexity.

I had similar problems in school.  Never understood how everyone else was ok with just memorizing stuff.  E.g. kids are taught about molecules, atoms, compounds, elements, etc. yet at no point, at least in my schools, was anything ever coherently explained within the context of where they fit.  They'd just tell you to remember that "x has this many protons/neutrons/electrons", as if that's meant to teach anything about the way reality is structured.

 

Quote

So I thought that maybe zoology is kind of biology for sensors, while evolutionary biology is biology for intuitives.

Yes😂😂

 

Quote

In zoology, you have to mainly memorize a large list of specific animals based on things like physical characteristics. However, in evolutionary biology, you have to learn the general abstract principles behind how life evolves. I just thought this was interesting :D

Makes sense I guess.  Having an expensive education = expensive job = paying a lot to have someone do 99% menial labour = expensive Zoo tickets.

ENFPs, like ENTPs, have Si inferior.  Si = memorization.  So of course we'll hate the stuff that everyone else (sensors) love.

 

9 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Judging other's moral behaviour is actually stage blue.

Did you just call @integral a Blue😳

 

Quote

About tough love. Tough love should only be shown by a person who has a deep understanding of the other person. Have you communicated with this person that you are showing your tough love to? If not and if your strategy is only causing them further hurt and trigger,then it's pointless and unproductive and might actually cause more harm than good. Use the tough love approach with someone who complies with it and is productively responding to your tough love. If a person is getting triggered and if you know that they're sensitive, then use the empathetic approach. 2 cents.

A lot of what you're doing is just judgement, projection, assumption.

You seem to be projecting a lot here.  What if my intuition is good?  What if I don't care and am just having fun?  What if I don't even know what we're talking about here as I haven't talked to Preety in months?  What if the bigger issue here is your reaction to a "perceived wrong"?  Have you considered that this idea of a "Preety" is just a tool to help you to overcome your delusions?

Edited by thisintegrated

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10 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

ENFPs, like ENTPs, have Si inferior.  Si = memorization.  So of course we'll hate the stuff that everyone else (sensors) love.

Memorization (Si) of mainly physical characteristics (Se) 🤮


Intrinsic joy is revealed in the marriage of meaning and being.

 

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3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Memorization (Si) of mainly physical characteristics (Se) 🤮

The Inferior Demon..😂😂

At least it's better than a Blind Child ..maybe🤔

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Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

If you act nice, then that's a much, muuuuuuuuuch bigger problem than just being a dick and learning from the consequences of being your authentic self.

When i talk authentically i end up Te blasting someone, it doesn't work, the ESTJ super power. The reason your able to get away with this is because your a ENTP Ne dominant talking wizard and your no filter = authentic self makes for great conversation. 

22 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

How is that the beauty of her?  Selfishness/self-centredness/naiveness/arrogance/etc. aren't positive qualities.  They cause suffering for her and those around her.  Sure, I can see the beauty in even this, but in general those things are problems.

I agree its relative problems, the beauty is not about good or bad, its a work of art of creation, its a masterpiece. Its one perspective, its your interpreting what im saying this from naive green and is why you think im being a simp lmfao. I see the beauty in all of these meme constructions and every other perspective in-between.

22 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Why would you want anything to do with a liar?  You're not an ENTP.  I could enjoy talking to killers/psychopaths/etc. as I know how to make anything fun/interesting for myself.  But you'd just end up getting hurt.

Nothing is isolated.  If a person lies about little things, then being lied to about little things is the least of the problems you'll encounter with them.

Of course i can, thats why im enjoying this conversation so much. Centered green would be triggered by being called green. 

22 hours ago, thisintegrated said:
Quote

Every ENTP I've encountered had the most twisted immoral stories that they would tell while laughing. I'm not sure how the ENTP Fi blind stop works could you explain it?

lol, how Green can a man be🤦🏻🤦🏻

"Won't someone think of the children?!" vibes

lmaooo so what ended up happening is i did the same thing that i questioned you about earlier. "inexcusable and sickening" . 

In this case when i say immoral im speaking relative morality and twisted I'm talking about the ENTP experience of morality in comparison to how the other types experience it and there flair for creativity. By comparing all the perspectives the ENTP has a indifference in a specific way. Tying up 10 fish by the mouth with a rope and throwing them back into the ocean watching them flop around on the surface, An example of ENTP creativity lol. 

Peter Raslton is a Turquoise ENTP who is blind to love awakening, absolute love, infinite love. Leo has had spoken about how he disagrees with this. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think its part of the ENTP blind spot or the difference of interpretation each personality type has. Reality is constructed differently, a bias. ENTP flavoured. 

22 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Well it depends.  Yellow or Turquoise?  Yellow tries to take responsibility, but is aware of its limits and isn't arrogant enough to, for example, look down on non-vegans.  As for Turquoise, it depends on the personality and how deep in Turquoise they are.  It's the longest stage of them all.  But what makes Turquoise different is that it's aware of the imaginary nature of reality, and the illusion just starts breaking down.  Reality can't fully contain Turquoise.  What would Turquoise "take responsibility" for?  Anything you could take responsibility for would be imaginary.

Who is Turquoise teaching?  Its own dream characters?  There is no one to teach.  It's all about having fun, and having fun discussions.  That's what the human enjoys, and so that's what you do.  Different personalities like different things, and different teachers will have different styles of teaching.  The teaching itself is pointless and doesn't even matter, but you do whatever the human does, even if it's pointless.  All of existence is pointless, but it's all there is so that's what you experience.

But that's probably just confused you more🤦🏻

It is personal preference in the end? How one choose to play this game, its all pointless and imaginary from the absolute perspective and we play based on "Different personalities like different things, and different teachers will have different styles of teaching".

What i have been saying is not an appeal to morality, I didnt think the communication strategy made any sense lol and not a reflection of relative love. It was like watching a beating when i interpret it from her perspective. Tough love is one tool, its fine, but i know based on what i read that you fully understood her perspective and experience and choose to show no strategy beyond things that focused on expressing your mind with no filter = authentic self. Its not related to Tier 2, its your style of interfacing with people. Im not judging the conversation as good bad loving or not, i thought it was ineffective im a INTJ lol. i also thought it was possibly a issue with relative love that was explained away by "its all imaginary". 

Its possible it did implant a seed that is bearing fruit who knows. People have been doing that to her since i signed up here and it hasn't.

When i say "it was not your place to say it" the translations is = she cant hear it from you because she in the moment hated you, and you knew this and i knew you knew this, what i am not saying is that "you had no right to speak to her that way" = green thinks it knows best, lol Im not defending anyone. I'm pointing to bad strategy given the information you had while the conversation took place. You've been reading and interpreting what ive been saying as a simpleton green judger and im loving it. I see every perspective simultaneously.

What she experienced was abuse, again from her perspective not by my judgment you. If we disagree on this its because i think my understanding of her perspective and experience was deeper then yours. Not that your assessment wasn't pretty accurate, it was, there was just a deeper level that was missed that comes from experience with people with similar mental healthy conditions. 

Also im dominant Ni, your not im my league. B|

I get that your being authentic. Im not judging anything, im saying its ineffective at relative love. Definitely effective for your amusement and the readers. lol

Edited by integral

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20 hours ago, integral said:

 

Greens like to see themselves are Greens.  They don't recognize Yellow as the step forward (unless they somehow understand SD and recognize that Leo ain't full of shit).

 

And that Turquoise ENTP ain't Turquoise if he doesn't understand love.  What did Leo disagree with him on anyway?

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@thisintegrated

Quote

Greens like to see themselves are Greens.  They don't recognize Yellow as the step forward (unless they somehow understand SD and recognize that Leo ain't full of shit).

"Greens like to see themselves are Greens." this part didnt make sense to me. If its fun for you or part of your entertainment regimen please break down why you think I'm green. ^_^

Quote

And that Turquoise ENTP ain't Turquoise if he doesn't understand love.  What did Leo disagree with him on anyway?

Ill try to find the conversation. 

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He left me no chance to open up about my childhood trauma (which was the real intent of the call) and instead he dominated the conversation by rambling away about Mormons.

 

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Posted (edited)

Mmmmm

Now that's better.  A pretty good change, if I do say so myself.

 

What were we talking about again?

Edited by thisintegrated

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, integral said:

"Greens like to see themselves are Greens." this part didnt make sense to me. If its fun for you or part of your entertainment regimen please break down why you think I'm green. ^_^

Vibe.  I don't need to do intellectual analysis to figure out your stage.  I could probably point to specifics, but that's a lot of work.  I tend to point it out when you say something characteristic of Green, maybe I'll do more of that.

 

Quote

Ill try to find the conversation. 

I listened to him a bit today.  He could, potentially, be early-Turquoise, I guess.  But he's SO bad at talking I don't think I'll listen to him again.  He just can't get to the point.

 

4 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

 

🤔

 

Edited by thisintegrated

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